Are we too emotional with Managers?

[RedStarUnited]

(Hopefully not another Ole out thread...)

As I sit here and watch Bayern Munich celebrate winning the Champions League. I ask myself, would United have pulled a trigger and sacked a league and cup winning coach in November?

That decision they made, was the catalyst to them having one of their best seasons ever. A lot of fans in here cant fathom the idea of Ole getting sacked this summer for a better coach, why?

Even when we have sacked managers we have waited until the absolute last moment. Jose should have been sacked in the summer before he went. Nothing in that summer said the following season was going to be successful.

 

[Bastian]

I don't think there is any comparison really. It was a toxic situation with Kovac.

 

[Zoo]

Bayern were 4th in a league they pretty much own and got smashed 5-1 by Eintracht Frankfurt right before they made the change. You can’t compare with United.

 

[PlayerOne]

Yes, as a club we are not ruthless enough and it shows with the some of the players that are still at the club.

 

[JPRouve]

I don't think there is any comparison really. It was a toxic situation with Kovac.

It wasn't a toxic situation with Mourinho?

 

[TsuWave]

Yes. Some United fans believe in the ridiculous notion of “the United way”. Also, Ferguson’s “back the manager” speech gets used to justify sticking with poor managers.

And sometimes people will say “we tried the established manager route” neglecting that LvG hadn’t been involved in club football for years and that Mourinho was washed up and had been sacked from his last two jobs. That’s without mentioning how silly it is to stick with something that isn’t working out of fear of change.

 

[nyanza]

I ask myself, would United have pulled a trigger and sacked a league and cup winning the coach in November?

If we had won the league 7 times in a row and had easily the best squad, maybe. Even if not, it certainly wouldn't be an emotional choice but Glasers still being happy with money flow even without another title.

 

[Big Ben Foster]

We do take way too long to sack managers. Waited until top 4 was gone before getting rid of Moyes and LVG, even though it was plain to see we weren't going anywhere with either of them.

 

[TwoSheds]

It wasn't a toxic situation with Mourinho?

When he got sacked it was yeah. Which is why he got sacked I assume.

 

[Bastian]

It wasn't a toxic situation with Mourinho?

Yes. But not with Ole, I thought that was the point (sentimentality).

 

[El Zoido]

Bayern were already a well-run club, United were not. So what are you saying, every time we're not top of the league just sack the manager? Where are you drawing the line? The problems at United are way deeper than that.

 

[Terminator]

Definitely yes. With our current approach, we might have a few very bleak decades. Someone like Fergie is probably never going to come along again.

 

[led_scholes]

Bayern were 4th in a league they pretty much own and got smashed 5-1 by Eintracht Frankfurt right before they made the change. You can’t compare with United.

We were humiliated by many teams during Moyes and we sacked him only when he officially lost the 4th place. Thus, we lost any chances in CL for example.

The same with LVG and Mourinho. We kept LVG even though we were eliminated in the CL groups and we had lost ground in the league. With Jose, instead of firing him right after Sevilla, we renewed his contract only to fire him few months later.

I m not saying we should fire Ole now but come December, if things are not going well i hope we can pull the trigger immediately.

 

[JPRouve]

If we had won the league 7 times in a row and had easily the best squad, maybe. Even if not, it certainly wouldn't be an emotional choice but Glasers still being happy with money flow even without another title.

The Glazer part makes little sense, if money was the main factor, they would be more trigger happy and would sack managers sooner when things are salvageable. I get that people want to bring them at every turns but it has to make sense.

 

[Rozay]

Managers/players - we have some sort of ethos that United are ‘different’ to other football clubs. Has some benefits and disadvantages.

 

[Jibbs]

Until we pull the trigger on Woodward nothing is going to change

 

[RedStarUnited]

Bayern were 4th in a league they pretty much own and got smashed 5-1 by Eintracht Frankfurt right before they made the change. You can’t compare with United.

We were 6th and lost 3-0 in back to back games at Old Trafford to Liverpool and City. And this was 13/14, so we were raining Champions.

Moyes kept his job until CL was impossible.

 

[monosierra]

We were 6th and lost 3-0 in back to back games at Old Trafford to Liverpool and City. And this was 13/14, so we were raining Champions.

Moyes kept his job until CL was impossible.

I think Bayern can afford to change managers ruthlessly because they have a stronger institutional setup.

 

[monosierra]

The Glazer part makes little sense, if money was the main factor, they would be more trigger happy and would sack managers sooner when things are salvageable. I get that people want to bring them at every turns but it has to make sense.

The glazers are risk minimizers. They will take action only when the bottom line is hurt, such as missing out on European football.

 

[edcunited1878]

Bayern were underachieving with undisputed quality players. Neuer, Pavard, Kimmich, Alaba, Gortezka, Thiago, Muller, Lewendowski, etc. And the "fringe" players who continued to play and improve. You can afford to change managers when you know your quality is proven and underperformed and you know what is needed from the manager.

 

[JPRouve]

When he got sacked it was yeah. Which is why he got sacked I assume.

I think that it was toxic before the season even ended and culminated with his comment about the kids during preseason, if anything things cooled down because some of our players managed to make us relatively compettive for 3-4 months. In my opinion he should have been sacked after the last game of 17/18 and most clubs would have sacked him for his behavior during that summer, I have rarely seen a manager purposely try to kill any chance of positive spirit during preseason.

Yes. But not with Ole, I thought that was the point (sentimentality).

I don't think that it was the point of @RedStarUnited, I think that he is talking about the habit that fans and the club seem to treat all managers as some sort of messiah and end up never questioning them before the wheels fall off. In the case of Ole, it would be about being proactive and determine whether he is the long term solution and if there isn't someone currently available that may be a better fit. I'm not suggesting that Ole should be sacked but I do believe that in theory 99% of managers should be evaluated constantly by their clubs and every options should be open.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Yes. That “stand by your manager“ speech by Sir Alex has inadvertently set this club back. The higher ups are way too tolerant with managers and we are so poorly operated for such a massive club.

 

[ReallyUSA]

United has had four permanent managers in 7 years. LvG won a cup during a down season, and they binned him. Mou got second the year prior, and got rid of him. Moyes didn't even finish the year. If Ole didn't get into top four he would have been dropped too.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Kovac was extremely under performing and performances were only getting worse - the players had given up.

comparing that to ole is very different.

I would say though sacking mourinho at the newcastle game like everybody expected was the right thing to do, the writing was already on the wall then. Perhaps the crazy manager salary/pay off is what made us delay.

 

[Tyrion]

Yes. The sentimental idea that United need to give managers years worth of leeway just because it worked out with SAF decades ago is an annoying mantra that some of our fans trot out. Hopefully, our club doesn't buy it.

 

[JPRouve]

The glazers are risk minimizers. They will take action only when the bottom line is hurt, such as missing out on European football.

I agree with the idea that they are risk minimizers but the relation to European football is disproved by their actions because unlike most clubs they wait until things are not salvegeable. In other clubs managers are often out when the trend is negative and money is an even bigger motivator for these other clubs which isn't even hidden but openly stated, most clubs can't afford to miss on CL/EL football.

 

[Mercurial]

Glazers and Woodward have excised any form of heirarchy underneath them on the footballing side so many times last 7 or so years that it's hard to see a structure at the club for a very long time. Biggest damage for me was the clown Moyes and how he cleaned out anyone that carried our traditions on the staff level from SAF era to replace with mid table versions, brutal that it was allowed in a way. Even if Ole has his many tactical flaws or whatnot he is bringing that vital structure in for us again slowly, he has the old 'SAF DNA' and cultural attachment to the club with him, he has won me over in this regard big time!

 

[MikeKing]

Do you think any team just has to change their manager in November to automatically win the Champions League? Why are you advocating such a scenario if not, and you know that getting rid of your manager too early could well be as much of an emotional decision as hanging on to one for too long.

Some Arsenal fans could say their club were too emotional about their manager, seeing that they stuck with Wenger, a long time manager even when they struggled. But us?

United have changed manager about every two or three years since SAF. This is completely normal yet I still don't know why this is hard to grasp for some fans. The fact we don't differ from other clubs anymore doesn't mean we have to continuously discuss sacking managers immediately or rationalise why doing so might be necessary. We all know it, but it's not the answer to success is it? The manager who actually won the CL should get the direct credit for it, not the fans who was in favour of sacking a certain manager or previous 3 managers.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I agree with the idea that they risk minimizers but the relation to European football is disproved by their actions because unlike most clubs they wait until things are not salvegeable. In other clubs managers are often out when the trend is negative and money is an even bigger motivator for these other clubs which isn't even hiddne but openly stated, most clubs can't afford to miss on CL/EL football.

That's a good point.

I reckon if the money dries up and the lack of CL hits us much harder than it does now, we'll start being more decisive.

 

[PTSTSL]

I think we're too sentimental with players, that's the biggest problem.

 

[Cloud7]

Yes. We have a cult like devotion to our managers which is nothing but negative for the club.

 

[dove]

Yes, especially with players.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

Real wierd thread

 

[Wumminator]

feck no.

We should be more emotional. I love United, that’s more than just winning every game and fecking off the coach if he’s not doing well.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I think we're too sentimental with players, that's the biggest problem.

Disagree we need to bring in the right manager first of all. Before that happens our squad is going to underperform.

 

[Snow]

It depends on the situation. Barca sacked their manager when they were top of the league and had just won their CL group. They finished 2nd and embarrassed themselves in the CL knockouts. How's that for too emotional.

Every situation is different. Some clubs have more player power than others and if that power is not cool with the manager then he goes.

 

[Mainoldo]

Ermmmm Yeah!!

 

[Skills]

Yes. We have a cult like devotion to our managers which is nothing but negative for the club.

Is correct.

We arguably the most damaging fanbase out of all the big european football clubs. The other fanbases hold their clubs accountable and set the standards. Ours drags it down;.

 

[wolvored]

Utd are run by money people. its run to make money, not throw it away. Everything is balanced on that. Moyes sacking was because if he doesnt make top 4 he can be sacked on the cheap, and its been that with every manager. Ole will be gone as soon as its financially viable, depending whats in his contract and detrimental league position

 

[Wumminator]

I think we're too sentimental with players, that's the biggest problem.

Yes. If you look at the way we speak about players as a club we are really sentimental.

When we didn’t tell Vidic he was leaving. Or let Evra down. Or when Mourinho threw Shaw, Rashford and Martial under the bus.