Argentina NT

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I'm surprised yesterday's defeat has spurred so much discussion over Argentina. It was clear as daylight, even before the WC started, that Croatia was the best team overall in their group. And since Iceland has already shown two years ago that it is a NT whose cohesion is remarkably close to club football (where players work together every day), you could smell trouble approaching for the Argentinians from a mile away (i made some good money in their two matches and i'm sure i'm not the only one). But yesterday... it wasn't difficult at all to predict the outcome. They could play this game 10 more times and Croatia will win it 9/10. The only shocking thing about the result is that this muddle of a team that got thrashed has Messi in it.

The reality of the situation regarding the quality of this Argentina NT is that without Messi they would have not even got on the plane to Russia. Without Messi, they played 8 games in the qualifying round and they won only one. When he returned, he was directly involved (goal & assist) in all the goals Argentina scored in its last 9 qualifying matches.

The problems were there for all to see and Sampaoli's fault is that in the period between the end of the qualifiers and the start of the WC he failed to devise a plan in order to improve things for Argentina even in the slightest. That's mainly why i feel that any discussion about Icardi's absence or Dybala's benching etc. is somewhat pointless. In order to argue whether player x or y would have had a positive impact or not, you must imagine him in a proper system, in distinguishable tactics, in a tangible gameplan. Right now, we don't have the equation which will allow us to test any variables. Croatia was in total control right from the kick-off last night and the only thing that prevented them from loosening the reigns was the fear of Messi with a bit of space and time on the ball.

And this is exactly what makes it worse for Argentina, this notion that because they have Messi they must dominate and succeed at all costs. In the WCs i've watched there were more than a few teams that couldn't force their gameplan on their opponents but they felt that they should no matter what. France 2002 and Spain 2014 are the most obvious examples. That's one of the worst predicaments a team can find itself into and we've gone through all of this ourselves under LvG. The squad could not support the "philosophy" but they were constantly trying to play like they could because the system demanded it of them.

Say what you will about Santos and his ultra-defensive mindset but he's playing the 35 yo version of Ronaldo to his strengths and to the benefit of the whole team. It could have been very easy for a different manager to say "we're the European Champions, so we'll try to dominate our games" and then put Ronnie on the wings and have every single attack go through him.
 
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2mufc0

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That was one of the worst team performances in the WC yesterday, up there with Saudi. No cohesion or no gameplan, the manager has to take a lot of blame for that.

If it's true about Messi blocking Icardi from the team then he has to take some of the blame too. There have been plenty of instances in football history where teammates don't personally like eachother but they still got on the pitch together and won things.
 

izec

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That was one of the worst team performances in the WC yesterday, up there with Saudi. No cohesion or no gameplan, the manager has to take a lot of blame for that.

If it's true about Messi blocking Icardi from the team then he has to take some of the blame too. There have been plenty of instances in football history where teammates don't personally like eachother but they still got on the pitch together and won things.
Dont think it is Messi. Sampaoli doesnt rate him. Messi would get on with him if he had to. Sampaoli rates Benedetto higher, as seen in the qualifying campaign
 

Djemba-Djemba

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They still have a decent chance of getting through to be honest.

Now if they do reach the knockout rounds I expect them to be eliminated as quickly as possible but still.
 

Stacks

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They were awful in the South American qualify. They have a lot of talent in attacking positions but have weakness in defense and midfield.

I confess that i was expecting that they would be competitive in the wc because i thought Sampaoli would do like Scollari did with Brazil in 2002: to line up a defensive team to free the front three. But Sampoli want to play like Spain.
Chile had 11 terriers. Even their star players Vidal and Sanchez are terriers. It doesnt work with Argentina. He has no clue what his best team, tactic or formation is. He is still experimenting out there. Not saying it is an easy job, but ge isnt the answer
The coach is having a mare. Where is Banega, Biglia, Fazio, Di Maria? He is playing players out of position.
 

Alabaster Codify7

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They have been absolutely appalling, haven't they. Croatia mopped the floor with them, excellent effort.

They're out, they'll be lucky to scrape a win against Nigeria and it wont be enough.
 

giorno

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Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Mascherano, Di Maria etc. They've been mentally shot since the 2015 Copa. Argentina should have taken that chance, with Messi "retiring", to can all of them and start anew

Sampaoli has no clue, but it's been 10 years, 6 managers, all tried to build the team around Messi and all failed(Sabella and Martino were the best ones, because one had a plan B if Messi was ineffective, the other reduced Messi's role and impact on the team). To this day, ironically enough, the man that managed to get the best out of Messi in a tournament remains Maradona in 2010.

Honestly, at this point if i'm Sampaoli against Nigeria i'd stick Messi on the right and order him to stay there, with Dybala and Banega in charge of running the game through the middle
 

Aboutreika18

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As @Wonder Pigeon alluded to in the other thread, there seems to be this upside down mentality of using the Argentina national team as a platform to further Messi's legacy, rather than the other way round.

Sampaoli's comments have shown this but even Mascherano in that Guardian interview said that "I hope Argentina can meet Messi's standards".

It seems like a very unhealthy pressured environment to be a part of. Not just for the manager and the rest of the team but for Messi himself.
 

hasanejaz88

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Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Mascherano, Di Maria etc. They've been mentally shot since the 2015 Copa. Argentina should have taken that chance, with Messi "retiring", to can all of them and start anew

Sampaoli has no clue, but it's been 10 years, 6 managers, all tried to build the team around Messi and all failed(Sabella and Martino were the best ones, because one had a plan B if Messi was ineffective, the other reduced Messi's role and impact on the team). To this day, ironically enough, the man that managed to get the best out of Messi in a tournament remains Maradona in 2010.

Honestly, at this point if i'm Sampaoli against Nigeria i'd stick Messi on the right and order him to stay there, with Dybala and Banega in charge of running the game through the middle
Don't agree with that. Messi was hugely ineffective in 2010, especially in the quarter final against Germany. He was much better in 2014 and really looked like carrying Argentina to the WC after great performances throughout the tournament.
 

izec

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Sampaoli would suck the whole croatian team off if messi told him to, the only reason icardi isnt in the team is because of messi.
They are both not fond of him. Sampaoli called him up for the last two quali matches, but he wasnt too happy with him and he didnt get called up afterwards. Just because Sampaoli would suck their dicks, doesnt mean he rates Icardi. He doesnt rate Dybala either. You are just looking for another stick to beat Messi with, but they wouldnt get the best out of Icardi anyway. They need to start from zero with a new manager and new system tailored to their best players instead of trying to get the beat out of Messi and failing to be a half decent team
 

Cassidy

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Disappointing Lo Celso didn't get a chance
 

Adisa

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As @Wonder Pigeon alluded to in the other thread, there seems to be this upside down mentality of using the Argentina national team as a platform to further Messi's legacy, rather than the other way round.

Sampaoli's comments have shown this but even Mascherano in that Guardian interview said that "I hope Argentina can meet Messi's standards".

It seems like a very unhealthy pressured environment to be a part of. Not just for the manager and the rest of the team but for Messi himself.
This.
How can the purpose of a team be to elevate one player? Like they owe it to him to perform. It's so unhealthy.
 

hasanejaz88

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It still a shame regardless. At least you fail by getting to later stages. Not with a shambles
In a way, it's a case of having too many talented players and not being ablle to fit them together. Which 'golden generation' won anything though? Portugal's famed golden generation failed in the 90's, Holland in the 90's and 00's, England in the 00's. All the teams that have won usually have a combination of 2 generations of players rather than a single one, that adds experience and youthful talent. France had the experience of Desailly, Deschamps, Lizarazu + Henry, Vieira. Spain had Puyol, Casillas, Xavi + Ramos, Pique, Iniesta. Germany with Schweinsteiger, Lahm, Klose + Kroos, Ozil and many others.

What we're seeing with France, Belgium is the first generation of great players coming through but they lack experienced heads (Schweinsteiger, Lahm were at their 3rd World Cup by then) to guide them. France lack a Schweinsteiger type player in midfield while Belgium also lack a leader. Both generations though have atleast one more WC in them though if they are not successful now, they need to build more experience.
 

Vialli_92

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They have no game plan in attack, come up against a parked bus and it seems everything is done at random and there is no patterns to their play

They are totally shut out against a parked bus it's incredible how they are so poor
 

United Junkie

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Supposedly Icardi is left out because Messi doesn't want to work with him over Icardi rumoring to stealing Maxi Lopez's wife.

Messi is the decision maker. He decides if you are in or out.
 
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Revan

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They should hire Pekerman again with the mission to rejuvenate the team (which is what he did after 2002). And one of the conditions should be to not call anymore Messi, Higuain, Di Maria and Aguero. They have had more than enough chances.

The 'team' should be build around new players like Dybala and Icardi, not underperforming superstar veterans.
 

Irish Jet

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Sampaoli obviously deserves some flak but it’s not like he hasn’t experimented with a lot of different players prior to this with very poor results. The gameplan was to press Croatia into mistakes – Hence prioritising workers around Messi and Aguero - unfortunately the chances that did come didn’t fall to them. Sampaoli’s best sides have been all about a high press and it nearly worked, if they get that first goal it makes all the difference. There’s no excuse for having Mascherano in there – he was washed years ago and should have been sitting next to Zabaleta.

I do think Messi’s atrocious work-rate is a serious issue against good opposition (for Barca, any opposition for Argentina) and peak Suarez/Neymar papered over a lot cracks. He’s been anonymous in games where Barcelona have been destroyed in recent years (PSG, Juve, Roma) and doesn’t get away with the effort that’s sufficient in La Liga. When things get tough he becomes a passenger and shows no intensity whatsoever. Coming short to the ball every time against a deep block, staying in congested areas, walking around – He’s makes himself easy to play against off the ball thinking he can do the damage when he gets it. The better sides are simply shutting him out.

He’s not to blame but he has to shoulder a lot of responsibility. Also looks like the team is already throwing Sampaoli under the bus, which is disgraceful considering he’s accomplished more in International management than any of those dogs have as players, reminiscent of the French in 2010. Excuse making cowards not prepared to hold themselves accountable. Sampaoli showed more passion on the touchline than any of those so called professionals did on the pitch. Disgusting.
 

izec

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They should hire Pekerman again with the mission to rejuvenate the team (which is what he did after 2002). And one of the conditions should be to not call anymore Messi, Higuain, Di Maria and Aguero. They have had more than enough chances.

The 'team' should be build around new players like Dybala and Icardi, not underperforming superstar veterans.
Pretty much. They should build for 2022. The only problem for them will be to find good defenders and creative players in midfield. They seem to have a lot of attackers, but no good technical midfielders and good defenders at all
 

Revan

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Pretty much. They should build for 2022. The only problem for them will be to find good defenders and creative players in midfield. They seem to have a lot of attackers, but no good technical midfielders and good defenders at all
There will be young players coming of age for WC 2022, it is Argentina after all. The same thing was said after 2002 fiasco, but Pekerman built the best Argentinian team since Maradona's day, lead by Riquelme.
 

André Dominguez

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I'm not sure that individually they are superior to Portugal individually for me none of Caballero, Tagliafico, Mercado, Perez, Acuna, Meza or Mascherano as a midfielder (he's a centre back now and has been for 6-7 years) would get into the Portugal team.
You are overrating Portugal center backs, who are already veteran players and will get exposed against explosive type of players. That's why Portugal can't use a high defensive line, that would be suicidal.
 

SCP

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You are overrating Portugal center backs, who are already veteran players and will get exposed against explosive type of players. That's why Portugal can't use a high defensive line, that would be suicidal.
I think beside Cristiano only Patricio and in shape (not based on current form) Guerreiro would make Argentina better. They do have a overall lack of quality regarding keepers and fullbacks, I think their current set of mifielders is not the best they had, but Sampaoli should play more Banega or Lo Celso.

And to see Salvio or Acuña starting for them is... I don't even have words to describe it. Even at Portugal they aren't regarded as the best, like it used to be some years ago with Di Maria, Otamendi or even Enzo Perez, Gaitan, Lucho Gonzales, Lisandro Lopez and so on.

Far from being only Messi fault, even if Sampaoli looks completely lost there. Anyway they can still qualify, while Ronado can still be eliminated by Queiroz. :lol:
 

André Dominguez

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Mistakes of this WC of Argentina team selection:

- Playing Messi so deep in the miedfield: I know that in Barça he also makes a lot of deep movements from the attack to midfield to get space, but in both games I saw a Messi who was almost all the time outside the last third of the pitch when Argentina had possession. This is terrible: Messi is much more dangerous getting the ball near the area: despite bneing my favourite player (yes, a portuguese admiting that Messi is a better overall player than Ronaldo :D ) he is not a playmaker even if you think that his talent will make him play well in every role. It wont and that makes a whole difference. Messi is not a player to assume the game expenses at full time. He's a player to get the ball in space for 1-on-1 situations. Those are the moments he can make an impact in a match.

- Choosing Meza over Dybala: seriously! Dybala is one of the world's finest players and you just leave him at the bench. This is totally insane!

- Insisting in Pavon: I know he's done wonders at his national league, but despite the occasional cross-shot hybrid he did a few times, he's very unexperienced. He has a great drible, but his decision making and vision is quite limited.

- Lack of width (and patience on possesion): Argentina starting 11 in theory had enough players to give quality width, but during the matches width was only used as last resort. The argie attack was very "funneled" (dunno if this word exists :D ). They simply get in the last third and try to go through the middle, and when the ways were shut, they would put it in the wing.

- Loosing the temper: players and manager were anxious and nervous even before the match started. The anxiety grew in both pitch and bench and it was a mather of time for an error to occur.
 

André Dominguez

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I think beside Cristiano only Patricio and in shape (not based on current form) Guerreiro would make Argentina better. They do have a overall lack of quality regarding keepers and fullbacks, I think their current set of mifielders is not the best they had, but Sampaoli should play more Banega or Lo Celso.

And to see Salvio or Acuña starting for them is... I don't even have words to describe it. Even at Portugal they aren't regarded as the best, like it used to be some years ago with Di Maria, Otamendi or even Enzo Perez, Gaitan, Lucho Gonzales, Lisandro Lopez and so on.

Far from being only Messi fault, even if Sampaoli looks completely lost there. Anyway they can still qualify, while Ronado can still be eliminated by Queiroz. :lol:
They are depending on other team results to qualify, though. And Iceland is a very focused team and this Nigeria generation is quite poor when compared to other generations.

Salvio is a player who's already in the descent curve of his career. Even before his injuries, he was not even a "definitive starter". It's not uncommon to see him on the bench for a lot of matches.

Acuña is not bad. Not that good either though. But he's hardworker at least. But yesterday, his crosses were a mess. He almost scored a casual goal when trying to cross :D
 

André Dominguez

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I forgot: Sampaoli calls Salvio and leaves Franco Cervi out, who despite being inconsisten at times, made a way better season than Salvio. He was one of the top assisters of Portuguese league. Sampaoli criteria was baffling.
 

giorno

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Don't agree with that. Messi was hugely ineffective in 2010, especially in the quarter final against Germany. He was much better in 2014 and really looked like carrying Argentina to the WC after great performances throughout the tournament.
He was better against Germany in 2010 than in 2014, and that's the only bad game he had. The other 4 he looked a good impression of Maradona. His worse game in 2010 was as "bad" as his 3rd worst in 2014(netherlands). His best games in '10 were better than his best games in '14 too
 

Kapardin

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I forgot: Sampaoli calls Salvio and leaves Franco Cervi out, who despite being inconsisten at times, made a way better season than Salvio. He was one of the top assisters of Portuguese league. Sampaoli criteria was baffling.
I honestly think Sabella should have continued managing Argentina. Sure, they weren't spectacular under him but they didn't look as bad as this either.
 

red forever

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I disagree. Mercado, Acuna and Tagliafico are comfortably better than Cedric Soares and are as good as Ricardo Pereira. Perez is the exact same player as Adrian, Id still pick Mascherano over Adrian in midfield in a functioning team, frankly the only supposedly weak player is Meza. Who has only looked weak because Argentina are super disjointed. If you watched any of him playing in the Copa Libratadores he is about the same quality as a Bruno Fernandes. Argentina's problem isn't the individuals. Its the collective. They are as bad as the Ginola generation of France who couldnt gel and put aside egoes to make it to the world cup in 94. Yet they are not even ego trippers like the French were...
....
Looking at the Portugal teams and Argentina team that started the last game. I'd still take an experienced head like Pepe over Otamendi or Mercado, Guerreiro is a better full back than Tagliafico. I'd have Mountinho over Perez & Carvalho over an aging Mascherano (who would be much better suited at centre back). I don't think there is any doubt that Patricio is a better keeper than Caballero. And I would certainly have Bernardo Silva & Guedes over Meza and Acuna.
 

MalcolmTucker

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It's stupid that Messi and Dybala can't play together when Spain dominated international football with 9000 small midfielders. If Isco, Iniesta, David Silva can play together then Dybala and Messi can.
 

Ekeke

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Any international side that wants to pick Biglia and Enzo Perez as starters instead of Ever Banega deserves to lose 3-0 to Croatia
 

Norris

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Hope Argentina can atleast make it to the R16's. But they have to sort this out fast.
 

GeorgeRed89

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4-2-3-1:Armani - Salvio - Otamendi - Fazio/Mascherano - Acuna/Rojo - Banega - Lo Celso - Dybala - Messi - Di Maria - Aguero/Higuain

4-3-3: Armani - Salvio - Otamendi - Fazio - Rojo - Banega - Biglia - Di Maria - Messi - Dybala - Aguero

3-4-3: Armani - Mascherano - Otamendi - Rojo - Salvio - Lo Celso - Banega - Di Maria - Messi - Dybala - Aguero

It's really that simple.
 

FootballHQ

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France have looked disjointed aswell.

Mind you Greiz, Mbappe and subbed on Dembele for last twenty v drawn out of a hat Argie back 3/4 does have potential to be more car crash viewing.