Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up

Donaldo said:
We're not entitled to win anything. A good cup run and top 4, that's about what you can expect. Arteta can invest all he wants, we cannot compete with the level of investment the other contenders and City put in. He's on course to building something, and that's the journey I'll choose to enjoy going on.
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I never mentioned winning the league. With Pep at 115 charges City it would be very difficult.
But I do expect free flowing football.

And as I mentioned with form and injuries things can improve but the midfield dynamics will take time and even more personal changes to improve.
 
CannonBalls said:
I never mentioned winning the league. With Pep at 115 charges City it would be very difficult.
But I do expect free flowing football.

And as I mentioned with form and injuries things can improve but the midfield dynamics will take time and even more personal changes to improve.
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I agree with you we haven't quite got the midfield dynamics yet, and see that you also acknowledge that with injuries coming back we could see more fluidity returning.

However, also bear in mind that our football last season was akin to Spurs this season a bit. Really fast starts, really pressing from the off, front foot exciting football. And yeah it was great to watch at times, but also remember it wasn't perfect in the end.
  • Matches would often be like basketball matches, quite end to end, exciting to watch, but in doing so you lose some control and sometimes you won't be on the right end of those results.
  • People often say goals win games, defences win titles. Are we deliberately tactically trying to have more control in games so we don't give up the goals we gave up last season, especially in transition, & the by product of this is slightly less attacking thrust?
  • Matches were also quite emotional because of this, the crowd was really into it, the players were also getting really emotional during games. Did that affect us in the business end of the season?
  • We also seemed to tire towards the back end of last season, injuries were taking their toll, the squad wasn't good enough to cope at the time. This season with Champions League we have less chance to rotate than we did with Europa League.
  • We watched Guardiola & City march past us last season. He / They are the masters at season management, and knowing when to peak at the right time. Quite often we will question their early form, only for them to motor Jan to April time. Perhaps we are trying to learn a lesson from them about peaking too early?
It's not easy to assess us right now. Is how we're playing due to new personnel, to the personnel that are missing, to lack of form, to the tactics & partly actually down to design? We can only really see how the season pans out, but we certainly aren't in a bad place right now.
 
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Donaldo said:
We took one season to get spoiled rotten it seems :lol:

Enjoy your team playing with (among the) two most exciting young forwards and midfielder in the league. Not to mention a generational talent at CB.

Boring. Jesus Christ.

I'll tell you what's boring. The inevitability of stuffing it against the best teams with the best players. The defence having no shape or organisation to speak of. Having prima donnas who have achieved precisely zilch earning mega-bucks in your squad and contributing nothing. Forwards with no talent or purpose, and some on their last legs. A club which is deformed and has lost its way completely. Going into every match day expecting the worst. Treating every goal or win as an exception to the rule. Barely fighting and struggling to a mid table or Europa League position. Watching a cavalcade of directors and managers run the club to the ground. The home crowd booing your own players and managers.

Get a grip.
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VP said:
No need to drag United into this..
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I legitimately thought he was having a pop at us until I realised he was replying to another gooner.

And it was all fair criticism :(
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I legitimately thought he was having a pop at us until I realised he was replying to another gooner.

And it was all fair criticism :(
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That's pretty funny. That's why, outside of Spurs, United will always be the main rivalry for me. Beyond memories of epic clashes while growing up, there are organic ebbs and flows to being a supporter of either team.
 
Donaldo said:
We're not entitled to win anything. A good cup run and top 4, that's about what you can expect. Arteta can invest all he wants, we cannot compete with the level of investment the other contenders and City put in. He's on course to building something, and that's the journey I'll choose to enjoy going on.
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The other contenders? I think you mean just City.
 
CannonBalls said:
I get the personal thing. Very few players in the squad who I don't like one of which is Ramsdale (cocky) and he may not be around longer. Same goes with Cedric.
Thats about it.
And yes I have been spoiled by last season but isn't that the point. Arteta has been given so much time (4 yrs) and money (600m) so he now has to live up to and improve on that standard.
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I forgot to add this in my previous post. Artetas spend often gets cast up, but £600M over 4 years would be an average of £150M a year. Is that not what most of the top teams are roughly spending per year just now? Are we seen as an outlier in terms of big spenders?
 
GoonerBear said:
I forgot to add this in my previous post. Artetas spend often gets cast up, but £600M over 4 years would be an average of £150M a year. Is that not what most of the top teams are roughly spending per year just now? Are we seen as an outlier in terms of big spenders?
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Yep, £150m. Less than Nottingham Forest spent last year.

It’s just lazy argument. Eddie Howe’s spending was bought up the other day. He took a side that was battling relegation into the CL with some very astute buys, yet it’s met with “he’s spent £400m”. As if his rivals were spent zero.

I’m no fan of state-backed football clubs, btw. And I think Newcastle are a lowkey dirty team with the constant cynical fouling. There’s lots of things to criticise, but their spending isn’t one of them.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I legitimately thought he was having a pop at us until I realised he was replying to another gooner.

And it was all fair criticism :(
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I honestly think the only way now is up for United. Ten Hag was a bit of a false dawn but I think he was on to the right path for the most part, before suddenly getting afflicted with the United curse.

Just one Xabi Alonso away from being the top dogs again.
 
GoonerBear said:
I forgot to add this in my previous post. Artetas spend often gets cast up, but £600M over 4 years would be an average of £150M a year. Is that not what most of the top teams are roughly spending per year just now? Are we seen as an outlier in terms of big spenders?
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Of course it's a big spend. You spent like 170m on 2 players this summer alone, which have barely improved you. That others are spending can be brought up of course, but the conversation is more about the progress the team is making while spending massive sums - and while the trajectory was good for a few years, it seems like it's somewhat stalled. I'm pretty sure that's what the poster meant.
Donaldo said:
I honestly think the only way now is up for United. Ten Hag was a bit of a false dawn but I think he was on to the right path for the most part, before suddenly getting afflicted with the United curse.

Just one Xabi Alonso away from being the top dogs again.
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Eurgh you've become such a boring poster.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Of course it's a big spend. You spent like 170m on 2 players this summer alone, which have barely improved you. That others are spending can be brought up of course, but the conversation is more about the progress the team is making while spending massive sums - and while the trajectory was good for a few years, it seems like it's somewhat stalled. I'm pretty sure that's what the poster meant.

Eurgh you've become such a boring poster.
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Are they massive sums, though? £150m a year isn’t outlandish for a team trying to challenge for the PL.

How do we measure our progress? Relative to the teams we’re competing with (that’s literally what competition is). So the amounts other teams are spending is obviously hugely relevant.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Of course it's a big spend. You spent like 170m on 2 players this summer alone, which have barely improved you. That others are spending can be brought up of course, but the conversation is more about the progress the team is making while spending massive sums - and while the trajectory was good for a few years, it seems like it's somewhat stalled. I'm pretty sure that's what the poster meant.
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And my point was that in my opinion it's too early to think progress has stalled. We are 1 point off the top of the league, and 4 points clear at the top of our Champions League Group. In comparison to last season, we are 3 points worse off, have the same goal difference, having had in my opinion more difficult opening fixtures as well as more injuries.
 
GoonerBear said:
And my point was that in my opinion it's too early to think progress has stalled. We are 1 point off the top of the league, and 4 points clear at the top of our Champions League Group. In comparison to last season, we are 3 points worse off, have the same goal difference, having had in my opinion more difficult opening fixtures as well as more injuries.
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Also, our progress was always likely to stall pretty soon. It’s only possible to finish a single place higher than we did and that spot is currently occupied by the best team on the planet. Who, incidentally, we’re a single point behind having already defeated them this season.

Could we be doing better? Yeah. Not that much better, though.
 
Daydreamer said:
Also, our progress was always likely to stall pretty soon. It’s only possible to finish a single place higher than we did and that spot is currently occupied by the best team on the planet. Who, incidentally, we’re a single point behind having already defeated them this season.

Could we be doing better? Yeah. Not that much better, though.
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So would you deem the Arteta/Edu project a success if you finish second this year, spend at a similar clip next summer and finish second again next year, not having won a CL? If you are finishing second and, say, CL quarter-finalists or thereabouts for the next 3 years, does there eventually come a point when Arteta and Co. need to go? Or is that good enough for Arsenal fans given the existence of City and anything beyond that is just a nice bonus rather than an expectation or standard to which Arsenal should be held?

The whole point of talking about spending and progress is to asses the project relative to standards, expectations and benchmarks. I thought the whole point of the Kroenke's opening their pockets in recent years was to win trophies, like they've done with their other clubs.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
So would you deem the Arteta/Edu project a success if you finish second this year, spend at a similar clip next summer and finish second again next year, not having won a CL? If you are finishing second and, say, CL quarter-finalists or thereabouts for the next 3 years, does there eventually come a point when Arteta and Co. need to go? Or is that good enough for Arsenal fans given the existence of City and anything beyond that is just a nice bonus rather than an expectation or standard to which Arsenal should be held?

The whole point of talking about spending and progress is to asses the project relative to standards, expectations and benchmarks. I thought the whole point of the Kroenke's opening their pockets in recent years was to win trophies, like they've done with their other clubs.
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If I’ve understood the question correctly, you’re asking if I think we should automatically sack our Manager for finishing 2nd for the next two years and not winning the CL?

I’d say ‘no’.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
So would you deem the Arteta/Edu project a success if you finish second this year, spend at a similar clip next summer and finish second again next year, not having won a CL? If you are finishing second and, say, CL quarter-finalists or thereabouts for the next 3 years, does there eventually come a point when Arteta and Co. need to go? Or is that good enough for Arsenal fans given the existence of City and anything beyond that is just a nice bonus rather than an expectation or standard to which Arsenal should be held?

The whole point of talking about spending and progress is to asses the project relative to standards, expectations and benchmarks. I thought the whole point of the Kroenke's opening their pockets in recent years was to win trophies, like they've done with their other clubs.
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Think you would need to add context to your scenarios. If City were hitting 95-100 point seasons the next couple of seasons, then we'd probably just need to hold our hands up. If they were winning the league the next couple of seasons with 85 points, then i'd be more disappointed we haven't managed to improve on last season for the following couple of seasons.
Same with Champions League. If you are getting put out by a City or Real Madrid at quarter final stage, its a bit more understandable than being put out by a Porto or a Lazio for example.

I also don't want to be arrogant enough to dismiss other teams. Liverpool are a major threat, think the likes of Newcastle & Chelsea are on the right lines as well. Perhaps we'll see league winning totals go down a bit more if these teams are more competitive when playing the City's & Liverpool's of this world like we all struggled to be when both were hitting 90 point+ totals most years.
 
Daydreamer said:
If I’ve understood the question correctly, you’re asking if I think we should automatically sack our Manager for finishing 2nd for the next two years and not winning the CL?

I’d say ‘no’.
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GoonerBear said:
Think you would need to add context to your scenarios. If City were hitting 95-100 point seasons the next couple of seasons, then we'd probably just need to hold our hands up. If they were winning the league the next couple of seasons with 85 points, then i'd be more disappointed we haven't managed to improve on last season for the following couple of seasons.
Same with Champions League. If you are getting put out by a City or Real Madrid at quarter final stage, its a bit more understandable than being put out by a Porto or a Lazio for example.
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Thanks.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
So would you deem the Arteta/Edu project a success if you finish second this year, spend at a similar clip next summer and finish second again next year, not having won a CL? If you are finishing second and, say, CL quarter-finalists or thereabouts for the next 3 years, does there eventually come a point when Arteta and Co. need to go? Or is that good enough for Arsenal fans given the existence of City and anything beyond that is just a nice bonus rather than an expectation or standard to which Arsenal should be held?
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In my opinion given the competitiveness of EPL in the past 10 years, a consistent top 4 finish is a success for the club and Arteta/Edu project. It won't be easy by any mean even with the money that has been spent in the past couple transfer windows. Not only Arsenal is spending money to improve the squad every summer, all other top 6 clubs are doing the same.
 
GoonerBear said:
Think you would need to add context to your scenarios. If City were hitting 95-100 point seasons the next couple of seasons, then we'd probably just need to hold our hands up. If they were winning the league the next couple of seasons with 85 points, then i'd be more disappointed we haven't managed to improve on last season for the following couple of seasons.
Same with Champions League. If you are getting put out by a City or Real Madrid at quarter final stage, its a bit more understandable than being put out by a Porto or a Lazio for example.
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Yep, that’s why I wouldn’t say he doesn’t have to be sacked for those results.

If we’re 2nd because we got the absolute maximum out of the team but just lost out to the better team (like Liverpool) that’s no problem.

If we’re 2nd, nowhere near challenging and regressing as a team, then that’s a huge problem.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
In my opinion given the competitiveness of EPL in the past 10 years, a consistent top 4 finish is a success for the club and Arteta/Edu project. It won't be easy by any mean even with the money that has been spent in the past couple transfer windows. Not only Arsenal is spending money to improve the squad every summer, all other top 6 clubs are doing the same.
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It's only really gotten crazy since Pep arrived. Maybe things will go back to normal once he's gone. Arteta needs to do some more Eni Aluko-style collusion with his buddy over the summer and convince him that his golf swing needs more attention that can be given in just the summers.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
It's only really gotten crazy since Pep arrived. Maybe things will go back to normal once he's gone. Arteta needs to do some more Eni Aluko-style collusion with his buddy over the summer and convince him that his golf swing needs more attention that can be given in just the summers.
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Arsenal has been out of top 4 since 2016, and just got back to CL this season. There are 7 clubs with the resource and ambition to compete for a top 4 spot in EPL. City, United, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs. Aston Villa is knocking the door as well. It has nothing to do with the head coach in each club. All these clubs are spending heavily each summer to improve the squad. So in my opinion, a consistent top 4 finish is already a success.
 
ThierryHenry14 said:
Arsenal has been out of top 4 since 2016, and just got back to CL this season. There are 7 clubs with the resource and ambition to compete for a top 4 spot in EPL. City, United, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs. Aston Villa is knocking the door as well. It has nothing to do with the head coach in each club. All these clubs are spending heavily each summer to improve the squad. So in my opinion, a consistent top 4 finish is already a success.
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Assuming Pep is out of the picture and the intensity and bar for winning the league are lowered, CL football only seems like a low bar for terminal success of an Arsenal project if the club continues spending at the same level. If the head coach can be a differentiator in claiming top prizes amid all of that competition, then of course it has something to do with the head coach.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
Assuming Pep is out of the picture and the intensity and bar for winning the league are lowered, CL football only seems like a low bar for terminal success of an Arsenal project if the club continues spending at the same level. If the head coach can be a differentiator in claiming top prizes amid all of that competition, then of course it has something to do with the head coach.
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I do understand there are fans have high standard and demand their supported club to challenge and win the title even all other clubs are spending the same level every summer to improve the squad. I respect that.
 
Taribo's Gap said:
Assuming Pep is out of the picture and the intensity and bar for winning the league are lowered, CL football only seems like a low bar for terminal success of an Arsenal project if the club continues spending at the same level. If the head coach can be a differentiator in claiming top prizes amid all of that competition, then of course it has something to do with the head coach.
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Yep, I agree with this. With 5 CL spots likely up for grabs most years, I expect us to be one of them. I don't necessarily expect us to win the PL and CL (though I live in hope). I do, however, expect us to consistently challenge for major honours. We obviously can't do that if we don't even qualify for one of them.
 
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Daydreamer said:
Yep, I agree with this. With 5 CL spots likely up for grabs most years, I expect us to be one of them. I don't necessarily expect us to win the PL and CL (though I live in hope). I do, however, expect us to consistently challenge for major honours. We obviously can't do that if we don't even qualify for one of them.
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Also, how ridiculous is it that a competition that is named after the fact that you originally had to be a champion just to compete in it will most likely have a quarter of all PL teams involved most years?

Don’t get me wrong, I’ll be grateful if we finish 5th and scrape in, but it definitely dilutes the concept.
 
GoonerBear said:
I agree with you we haven't quite got the midfield dynamics yet, and see that you also acknowledge that with injuries coming back we could see more fluidity returning.

However, also bear in mind that our football last season was akin to Spurs this season a bit. Really fast starts, really pressing from the off, front foot exciting football. And yeah it was great to watch at times, but also remember it wasn't perfect in the end.
  • Matches would often be like basketball matches, quite end to end, exciting to watch, but in doing so you lose some control and sometimes you won't be on the right end of those results.
  • People often say goals win games, defences win titles. Are we deliberately tactically trying to have more control in games so we don't give up the goals we gave up last season, especially in transition, & the by product of this is slightly less attacking thrust?
  • Matches were also quite emotional because of this, the crowd was really into it, the players were also getting really emotional during games. Did that affect us in the business end of the season?
  • We also seemed to tire towards the back end of last season, injuries were taking their toll, the squad wasn't good enough to cope at the time. This season with Champions League we have less chance to rotate than we did with Europa League.
  • We watched Guardiola & City march past us last season. He / They are the masters at season management, and knowing when to peak at the right time. Quite often we will question their early form, only for them to motor Jan to April time. Perhaps we are trying to learn a lesson from them about peaking too early?
It's not easy to assess us right now. Is how we're playing due to new personnel, to the personnel that are missing, to lack of form, to the tactics & partly actually down to design? We can only really see how the season pans out, but we certainly aren't in a bad place right now.
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Not in a bad place yes.
But in Artetas words we had to nail this transfer window and we have not done that and that is completely on him.
Rice for what he brings was overpriced but he is a unique profile and I can understand getting fixated on that.
Timber was good and Raya was opportunistic.

I just cannot get my head around the Havertz tranfer. 65m and 250k/week he is going to be a sore thumb and it was not at all necessary. This had disaster written over it in BOLD but Arteta was cocky enough to disregard what everyone else was saying.
Havertz is a huge investment for us. In wage and amortization he is 25m+ each year for the next 5 year. As against someone like Trossard who would be 10m/year. This would surely impact our future transfers.


GoonerBear said:
I forgot to add this in my previous post. Artetas spend often gets cast up, but £600M over 4 years would be an average of £150M a year. Is that not what most of the top teams are roughly spending per year just now? Are we seen as an outlier in terms of big spenders?
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150m with hardly anything by selling is a big number especially with our revenues. This is because KSE is not expected to bankroll transfers they have said multiple times that the club has to be self sustaining which I think is very fair. So cannot be compared with Newcastle and whatever the hell is going on at Chelsea.
What Forest is doing is very risky, incase they get relegated the whole club would be in danger. That could be barca level mismanagement.
 
I love it when some Arsenal fans here (and on Twitter) try to pretend like they're some sort of plucky underdogs who can't compete financially with their rivals despite spending massive amounts of money under Arteta (much like their rivals).
 
wr8_utd said:
I love it when some Arsenal fans here (and on Twitter) try to pretend like they're some sort of plucky underdogs who can't compete financially with their rivals despite spending massive amounts of money under Arteta (much like their rivals).
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It is very interesting when other clubs fans are very concerned the ambition of arsenal as a club and its fans. Only Josh has the power to determine the fate of Arteta and Edu.
 
We are not underdogs in getting to the CL. We are underdogs to win the league, and I believe for any team other than City the label fits. After almost 2 decades of very little spending, we are now competitive in that regard. Ok there is Chelsea on another level and who knows what City is actually doing with their transfers, but at least in comparison to Man Utd, Pool and Spurs we are in the same ballpark.
 
Hilarious that lots of people are getting so upset about Arsenal's spending. Imagine someone telling you a few years ago that this would be happening.

Honestly have heard it enough from United, Chelsea, and City fans over the last two decades to say, with absolute 100% confidence - "I don't care."
 
CannonBalls said:
Not in a bad place yes.
But in Artetas words we had to nail this transfer window and we have not done that and that is completely on him.
Rice for what he brings was overpriced but he is a unique profile and I can understand getting fixated on that.
Timber was good and Raya was opportunistic.

I just cannot get my head around the Havertz tranfer. 65m and 250k/week he is going to be a sore thumb and it was not at all necessary. This had disaster written over it in BOLD but Arteta was cocky enough to disregard what everyone else was saying.
Havertz is a huge investment for us. In wage and amortization he is 25m+ each year for the next 5 year. As against someone like Trossard who would be 10m/year. This would surely impact our future transfers.





150m with hardly anything by selling is a big number especially with our revenues. This is because KSE is not expected to bankroll transfers they have said multiple times that the club has to be self sustaining which I think is very fair. So cannot be compared with Newcastle and whatever the hell is going on at Chelsea.
What Forest is doing is very risky, incase they get relegated the whole club would be in danger. That could be barca level mismanagement.
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You wont get many arguments from me on Havertz. I tried to see it from Arteta's side in the summer, while at the same time recognising that it was a massive gamble, & it seems like its going to be a big flop. My personal preference was for someone like Szoboszlai, and i honestly can't see at all what Havertz has over him for that attacking 8 position. He's more dynamic, more creative, has better shooting, always wants the ball and isn't afraid to run & do the defensive side of the game as well.

I don't quite know how him & Edu have managed it, & i'm sure someone mentioned it already, but they seem to have collected a whole lot of midfielders that either primarily play as a 6 (Rice, Partey, Elneny, Jorginho) or as a 10 (Havertz, Odegaard, Smith-Rowe, Vieira). Where is that Gundogan / Mac Allister / Kovacic / Tonali type player that would help bring balance to the midfield?!

The ironic thing is Arteta & Edu were midfielders themselves!
 
This stories a few days old now but thought it was worth a wee post. Couple of things noteworthy things came out of it.




 
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Joao Palinha and Luiz. I hope there's someone else because i doubt we could get either of them.
Luiz is a bit meh for the money Villa would ask for while Palinha and his entourage have been twerking for Bayern even after the failed transfer. He's also way too tackle happy to wear an Arsenal shirt. He would get 5 red cards per season.
 
awop said:


Joao Palinha and Luiz. I hope there's someone else because i doubt we could get either of them.
Luiz is a bit meh for the money Villa would ask for while Palinha and his entourage have been twerking for Bayern even after the failed transfer. He's also way too tackle happy to wear an Arsenal shirt. He would get 5 red cards per season.
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Thought that tweet was about something else :lol:.
 
DJ Jeff said:
Still don't think they're anywhere near as good as last season but Rice has been a great signing
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Think we're getting there, our attack is improving IMO. We're 1 point off where we were after 14 games last season, but this time we're top of the table (City were at this stage last season). The last couple of games vs Lens and Wolves, we've played some of our best football so far this season. We're finally able to start our preferred front 5 players consistently (with Havertz/Trossard rotating it seems) and Odegaard is now back fit. Havertz also seems to have settled more into the team, was good again when he came on vs Wolves.
 
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