Arsenal 2023/24 - Have bottled the Champions League and are Bottling the League

[GoonerGirly]

I’d like to see Trossard get in a run in midfield like he did during the preseason tour. He’s too goo to keep on the bench and he has all the technical qualities you need to succeed there

He would probably do fine but I think we'd benefit more if he's in the front 3. He can play anywhere along the front 3 and his creativity and finishing means he's never far from a goal or assist. Think he also lacks a bit of physicality for midfield, though Rice massively makes up for that.

 

[Changeisgood]

By my count, that gives us 10 different goal scorers already this season. Very different from City. Still at times I wish we had a more recognized forward.

Wonder if we will be in for Zubimendi this January. Perhaps that allows both Jorginho and Partey to go.

 

[Egalitard]

Not much to learn from a win against this Sheffield United, but they did give both United and Tottenham much more of a game. If we're still unbeaten after Newcastle (a) then yes, I will get carried away.

 

[GoonerBear]

Not much to learn from a win against this Sheffield United, but they did give both United and Tottenham much more of a game. If we're still unbeaten after Newcastle (a) then yes, I will get carried away.

Exactly, was a good win and allowed us to rotate and rest players but not going to learn anything more from that game really.

3 more points though. 10 games, 24 points. Wondering if the posters that were thinking the first half of last seasons form was just a 1 off anomaly still think that, and we are actually closer to a 65-70 point team like they suggested?

 

[ThierryHenry14]

By my count, that gives us 10 different goal scorers already this season. Very different from City. Still at times I wish we had a more recognized forward.

Wonder if we will be in for Zubimendi this January. Perhaps that allows both Jorginho and Partey to go.

We need a right winger more than a CM at the moment to compete/rotate with Saka. If Partey is no longer available then need to make do with Jorginho for the rest of the season. Both would be nice of course.

 

[Daydreamer]

We need a right winger more than a CM at the moment to compete/rotate with Saka. If Partey is no longer available then need to make do with Jorginho for the rest of the season. Both would be nice of course.

I actually think a defender is our biggest priority. We have 8 first team defenders, we'll be down to 5 legitimate options in Jan...

• Timber - Injured
• Tomiyasu - Asia Cup
• Cedric - Out of favour

It was the loss of Saliba and Tomiyasu that did us in last season, I really want us to avoid that this season.

 

[GoonerBear]

I actually think a defender is our biggest priority. We have 8 first team defenders, we'll be down to 5 legitimate options in Jan...

• Timber - Injured
• Tomiyasu - Asia Cup
• Cedric - Out of favour

It was the loss of Saliba and Tomiyasu that did us in last season, I really want us to avoid that this season.

I've got hope that we might see Timber before the end of the season. Maybe i'm clutching at straws a bit, but seeing the video he put on Insta 6 weeks ago where he was walking with Kettlebells and doing lots of strength exercises which would have been only 4 weeks or so after his op makes me think he could still make a meaningful impact this season.

 

[AlexiV]

Wondering if the posters that were thinking the first half of last seasons form was just a 1 off anomaly still think that, and we are actually closer to a 65-70 point team like they suggested?

I’ve changed my mind and have to concede you’re looking like a top-4 team for the next 4 years at least. The title, who knows? Depends on City imploding I guess but I’d have Liverpool first to take advantage of that.

 

[Daydreamer]

I’ve changed my mind and have to concede you’re looking like a top-4 team for the next 4 years at least. The title, who knows? Depends on City imploding I guess but I’d have Liverpool first to take advantage of that.

I don't think City have to implode for another team to win; they don't look as dangerous as they did last year (which is understandable - they won the treble after all). I think Liverpool's return to form and Tottenham amazing start will make the head-to-heads at the top of the table more significant than they've been for many years.

 

[Daydreamer]

Exactly, was a good win and allowed us to rotate and rest players but not going to learn anything more from that game really.

3 more points though. 10 games, 24 points. Wondering if the posters that were thinking the first half of last seasons form was just a 1 off anomaly still think that, and we are actually closer to a 65-70 point team like they suggested?

@Licha-Vidic been real quiet lately.

 

[AlexiV]

I don't think City have to implode for another team to win; they don't look as dangerous as they did last year (which is understandable - they won the treble after all). I think Liverpool's return to form and Tottenham amazing start will make the head-to-heads at the top of the table more significant than they've been for many years.

City were further behind this time last year and Tottenham was still in the mix before eventually imploding. City actually has one point more now than last year on matchday 10. We’re about to see who really is in the mix the next few matchdays I think with City as a certainty.

 

[Daydreamer]

City were further behind this time last year and Tottenham was still in the mix before eventually imploding. City actually has one point more now than last year on matchday 10. We’re about to see who really is in the mix the next few matchdays I think with City as a certainty.

Oh, I definitely agree with that. I just don’t think they’re going be as strong as last year. We’ve seen that simply removing Rodri removes their aura of invincibility. Kovacic and Doku are not at the level of Gundogan and Mahrez. And it looks like de Bruyne is likely to have fitness issues from here on in as he’s been played pretty much every game for 15 years straight.

They’ve steamrolled the league year after year because their squad was so much stronger than everyone else’s. It’s still the strongest, but the gap is no longer a chasm.

 

[Changeisgood]

I actually think a defender is our biggest priority. We have 8 first team defenders, we'll be down to 5 legitimate options in Jan...

• Timber - Injured
• Tomiyasu - Asia Cup
• Cedric - Out of favour

It was the loss of Saliba and Tomiyasu that did us in last season, I really want us to avoid that this season.

I am not sure we will pull off a deal for a defender for that much of a short term deficiency but we are definitely left thin. I suspect we could see Partey rotating in again somewhere if he is available. Tomi might be gone for quite a while because I would expect Japan to go far in this tournament.

Not particularly fond of relying on Jorginho. Don't feel he has been at a high enough level every time he has filled in.

 

[Daydreamer]

I am not sure we will pull off a deal for a defender for that much of a short term deficiency but we are definitely left thin. I suspect we could see Partey rotating in again somewhere if he is available. Tomi might be gone for quite a while because I would expect Japan to go far in this tournament.

Not particularly fond of relying on Jorginho. Don't feel he has been at a high enough level every time he has filled in.

Cedric needs to be replaced, so it’s not a short term issue. But in the short term, Partey is off to AFCON, so he’s won’t be around in Jan either.

Defense is the area of the pitch where we know we’re losing the most players and there is the biggest drop off in quality between our starters and our rotation options.

Nketiah, Trossard, Nelson, Havertz, Smith-Rowe, Jorginho can all step in and do a job in attack and midfield. I have no worries seeing any of them on the team sheet. Cedric on the other hand…

 

[Changeisgood]

Cedric needs to be replaced, so it’s not a short term issue. But in the short term, Partey is off to AFCON, so he’s won’t be around in Jan either.

Defense is the area of the pitch where we know we’re losing the most players and there is the biggest drop off in quality between our starters and our rotation options.

Nketiah, Trossard, Nelson, Havertz, Smith-Rowe, Jorginho can all step in and do a job in attack and midfield. I have no worries seeing any of them on the team sheet. Cedric on the other hand…

That's a good point. Forgot that was going on at the same time. Maybe time to give Walters a shot with some shifting around?

 

[Daydreamer]

That's a good point. Forgot that was going on at the same time. Maybe time to give Walters a shot with some shifting around?

Yeah, if we don’t buy, I’d like to see Walter’s given a chance.

 

[horsechoker]

Are we allowed to laugh?

 

[awop]

Are we allowed to laugh?

Too many changes and a quick OG against West Ham's full strength 11 killed it. Would have been a good chance of silverware considering only Liverpool and Newcastle will be left to win it.

 

[Changeisgood]

Didn't watch most of this but we looked pretty poor in what little I saw. Not that West Ham was that great either. I care little about this competition, but it still feels like a bit of a missed opportunity. Hope we play our top team in the FA Cup. That should be a realistic target this year.

 

[GoonerGirly]

Disappointing result, was expecting a bit more but Arteta rotated heavily. That midfield of Havertz-Jorginho-Vieira was always going to be too lightweight IMO. Onto the next one!

 

[mathrait]

Glad we're out of this. Our squad can only manage PL and UCL games at best. The performance though was disappointing.

 

[horsechoker]

Arsenal have only won the league cup twice

The club really couldn't give a shit about the competition

 

[Vialli_92]

Glad we're out of this. Our squad can only manage PL and UCL games at best. The performance though was disappointing.

Probably what Arteta wants ideally. Cup games stretch the squad too much unless you have strength in depth like City.

 

[Changeisgood]

Probably what Arteta wants ideally. Cup games stretch the squad too much unless you have strength in depth like City.

Personally, I have always felt this competition is for mid-table teams and teams with large squads like Chelsea and City. We used to play kids year in and year out, so yes safe to say Arsenal doesn't have the best track record here.

 

[Donaldo]

I hope that was the death knell for Havertz and George in midfield together, or even in the first team, point blank. Just not good enough as backup for our current ambitions.

 

[reddev3]

Arsenal have only won the league cup twice

The club really couldn't give a shit about the competition

I guess they couldn't give a shit about the Champions league either.

They've also been runners-up more than anybody.

 

[GoonerBear]

Arsenal have only won the league cup twice

The club really couldn't give a shit about the competition

Honestly, it's hard to argue. I mean Wenger & Sir Alex i think were among the first to use the competition to blood youngsters. It's not quite the same now, with it being more 1st team fringe players given a shout, so when you get knocked out it's difficult to assess.

However, for me i still get disappointed being knocked out, simply because i don't like seeing me team get beat. You also don't want to watch performances as flat as we were last night, it's never good. Then you analyse it, and you start to question certain members of the squad, players you think should be using the game to really stake a claim for more regular starts, guys like Vieira, Nelson, Trossard etc, and no-one really did.

These type of players can deliver in moments, and i'll throw in Nketiah to that as well, players that seem to play in spurts, but when you are looking for them to kick on and show consistency and show that they can be relied upon, it just never quite happens. Added in the regular first teamers that did play, the likes of White, Gabriel & Zinchenko were poor as well, was just a poor night all in.

Credit to West Ham, they done well, but i don't think they really had to play really well to beat us which is the frustrating thing. I thought it was pretty even first half, thought Ramsdale was fouled on the goal and i can't remember West Ham actually having a shot first half, but when you are looking for a response 2nd half they way we came out that 15mins after half time was poor and we lost the game from there.

Not sure it will have any bearing on the game at the weekend given the changes, but either way that's going to be a very tough game. Not going into that over confident lets say.

 

[WeePat]

I find Arsenal fans' attitude towards the league cup a bit funny. They haven't really won anything of note in the last half decade, just that solitary FA Cup trophy (just 4 trophies in the last 20 years) but they're all running around saying they're happy they're out of this cup, bigger fish to fry etc.

For a team that hasn't really achieved anything yet, winning the league cup could be a brilliant platform to build a winning identity in these young players and could be used as a springboard to further success. But yet, they all seem happy to forego this tournament when they were the best team left in it.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I find Arsenal fans' attitude towards the league cup a bit funny. They haven't really won anything of note in the last half decade, just that solitary FA Cup trophy (just 4 trophies in the last 20 years) but they're all running around saying they're happy they're out of this cup, bigger fish to fry etc.

For a team that hasn't really achieved anything yet, winning the league cup could be a brilliant platform to build a winning identity in these young players and could be used as a springboard to further success. But yet, they all seem happy to forego this tournament when they were the best team left in it.

Which is made even weirder when you know they don't have a chance to actually win the league.

 

[WeePat]

Which is made even weirder when you know they don't have a chance to actually win the league.

Yeah, that too. I don't think they'll be involved in a title race this season, judging by how they've been playing so far this season. I just think it's very stupid to turn your nose up at this tournament when it could actually be super useful for the future if approached correctly. They said the same when they got knocked out of the EL last season and that's bigger than anything they've won since 2004. I get that they have bigger aspirations than the EFL cup but, yeah.

 

[Powderfinger]

I find Arsenal fans' attitude towards the league cup a bit funny. They haven't really won anything of note in the last half decade, just that solitary FA Cup trophy (just 4 trophies in the last 20 years) but they're all running around saying they're happy they're out of this cup, bigger fish to fry etc.

For a team that hasn't really achieved anything yet, winning the league cup could be a brilliant platform to build a winning identity in these young players and could be used as a springboard to further success. But yet, they all seem happy to forego this tournament when they were the best team left in it.

I agree with this. I’m annoyed to be out.

 

[Daydreamer]

I find Arsenal fans' attitude towards the league cup a bit funny. They haven't really won anything of note in the last half decade, just that solitary FA Cup trophy (just 4 trophies in the last 20 years) but they're all running around saying they're happy they're out of this cup, bigger fish to fry etc.

For a team that hasn't really achieved anything yet, winning the league cup could be a brilliant platform to build a winning identity in these young players and could be used as a springboard to further success. But yet, they all seem happy to forego this tournament when they were the best team left in it.

This team has won the FA Cup which is a more prestigious competition.

Also does winning the League Cup actually build a winning identity? The most recent evidence we have doesn't support that. Granted, Guardiola and Mourinho won them on the way to more important things, but winning the League Cup was more of a by-product of having a squad capable of challenging for more important trophies. I think the cause and effect have been reversed here. They didn't win major titles because they won the League Cup - they won the League Cup because they had a squad strong enough to win major titles.

 

[Daydreamer]

I agree with this. I’m annoyed to be out.

I, too, am annoyed to be out. Winning a trophy is always nicer than not winning a trophy. But I'm more concerned that our rotation options played like trash.

 

[Taribo's Gap]

This team has won the FA Cup which is a more prestigious competition.

Also does winning the League Cup actually build a winning identity? The most recent evidence we have doesn't support that. Granted, Guardiola and Mourinho won them on the way to more important things, but winning the League Cup was more of a by-product of having a squad capable of challenging for more important trophies. I think the cause and effect have been reversed here. They didn't win major titles because they won the League Cup - they won the League Cup because they had a squad strong enough to win major titles.

No, this coach won the FA Cup. This team did not.

 

[ESR10]

I find it funny to criticize Arsenal when you are a Man United fan and your team just went out the same way. Or worse (at home)
The difference is Arsenal supporters trust their club at the moment and support them even in the defeat. That makes us stronger as a team. And the table shows it for more than a year.

 

[GoonerBear]

I find Arsenal fans' attitude towards the league cup a bit funny. They haven't really won anything of note in the last half decade, just that solitary FA Cup trophy (just 4 trophies in the last 20 years) but they're all running around saying they're happy they're out of this cup, bigger fish to fry etc.

For a team that hasn't really achieved anything yet, winning the league cup could be a brilliant platform to build a winning identity in these young players and could be used as a springboard to further success. But yet, they all seem happy to forego this tournament when they were the best team left in it.

The fans attitude is partly because the clubs attitude towards it has helped make it that way.

And as you can see, even in here, it’s not a blanket view. Like other fan bases there are varying opinions to the various competitions.

 

[Daydreamer]

No, this coach won the FA Cup. This team did not.

Fair enough. So recently, outside of City, we've seen Arsenal win FA Cup and finish 8th the next season and United win the League Cup and sit 8th after 10 games with performances arguably worse than their results. I don't think a domestic cup win necessarily builds a winning identity.

I loved each of four recent FA Cup wins. But I loved them because I like seeing my team play well and pick up trophies. But if we need to prioritise in order to compete for more important trophies, I understand it.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Fair enough. So recently, outside of City, we've seen Arsenal win FA Cup and finish 8th the next season and United win the League Cup and sit 8th after 10 games with performances arguably worse than their results. I don't think a domestic cup win necessarily builds a winning identity.

I loved each of four recent FA Cup wins. But I loved them because I like seeing my team play well and pick up trophies. But if we need to prioritise in order to compete for more important trophies, I understand it.

Context is needed for both those instances and which explain why they haven't had the "desired" effect.

Other managers, such as Pep, Guardiola, and Fergie, highlighted the League Cup was great to kickstart a winning mentality in a group. Also, how did prioritizing go for you last year?

 

[Daydreamer]

Context is needed for both those instances and which explain why they haven't had the "desired" effect.

Other managers, such as Pep, Guardiola, and Fergie, highlighted the League Cup was great to kickstart a winning mentality in a group. Also, how did prioritizing go for you last year?

The context for the differing results after winning domestic cups is that City were a great team and Arsenal / United aren't.

I'm sure winning the League Cup in February is a great kickstart for a team that is going on to win major trophies. I'm not arguing that it isn't. But it isn't the cause of that success, it just happens to precede it.

And prioritising didn't go well for us last year, mostly because we half-assed it. Saliba and Tomiyasu were both ruled out for the season due to injuries picked in a Europa League tie, after which our previously tight defence started shipping goals for fun. My heart was in my mouth when I saw the team sheet, our squad wasn't strong enough to compete on all fronts.

 

[Solius]

I find it funny to criticize Arsenal when you are a Man United fan and your team just went out the same way. Or worse (at home)
The difference is Arsenal supporters trust their club at the moment and support them even in the defeat. That makes us stronger as a team. And the table shows it for more than a year.

People can admit we are shit and still laugh at other club's misfortunate. Both things are allowed at the same time.