Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up

[LDUred]

It's still wide open. There are five teams in the mix and there's not much between them.

I think by the end of the season it will be a close run thing between City and Liverpool, though.

 

[GoonerGirly]

Was really hoping they would mount a more serious challenge for City.

City winning isn't just 4 in a row, could easily be 5 or more in a row with nobody looking at all near their level.

Let's hope the 115 charges comes back to bite City soon.. though probably not.

 

[Nicolarra90]

That’s what happens when you barely rotate, CL football midweek, and reverting back to the norm.
Last season Arsenal overperformed, while they have some good to great players, their squad is not strong enough not to be able to rely on a bit of luck.
Also bar last season, Arteta mostly proposed shite football (in spite if all the claims you can find on the Caf that the process was clearly visible and so on)

They overperformed the first half of last season where they got 50 points. In the second half they got 34 points which is barely an EL campaign.

 

[GoonerGirly]

It's still wide open. There are five teams in the mix and there's not much between them.

I think by the end of the season it will be a close run thing between City and Liverpool, though.

I agree, people are panicking and there's still half a season to go. I always knew being back in CL will be a huge test for the squad. If title is out the window, I hope we can go deep in CL.
Agree that the title race is probably between Liverpool and City. Liverpool not being in CL helps them a lot.

 

[Mike Smalling]

If we keep faith in Ten Hag, he may also end up being a giant loser like Arteta too.

This gave me a good chuckle

 

[Remember the geese]

Shame we are shit this season, otherwise they could have been in real danger of missing out on the top 4. Spurs could finish above them but I have no faith in Villa lasting the course.

 

[Cloud7]

Should've known not to trust Arsenal to stop the usual suspects.

Still a lot of time to go in the title race, but the best hope they got is City not repeating their usual second half of season run of form.

We’re on the Villa train this season mate

 

[Robbie Boy]

Havertz is quite something.

Saw an Arsenal fan on here recently saying he had 'turned it around' - not sure what the 'it' is, but surely it has nothing to do with actual footballing ability.

 

[LDUred]

I agree, people are panicking and there's still half a season to go. I always knew being back in CL will be a huge test for the squad. If title is out the window, I hope we can go deep in CL.
Agree that the title race is probably between Liverpool and City. Liverpool not being in CL helps them a lot.

All the big sides have dropped points this season so it shows that vulnerabilities are there for everyone. It's still up for graps for any team that can put a run together January to March.

In terms of the title race, obviously that home game Arsenal have against Liverpool is huge. Whoever wins that will see it as a chance to kick on.

 

[Winrar]

We’re on the Villa train this season mate

Would love for them to win it ahead of Pool and City but I can't see it.

 

[Blood Mage]

Liverpool's squad isn't amazing, time will tell if they can go the distance plus you can't rule out City. It's an exciting title race this year unless you're a United fan who despises all three clubs.

 

[njred]

It’s just a great season to be following the league with a once in lifetime title race like this. It’s any one of 5 teams which is so unusual and the race for fifth has at least 5 also rans so that’s gonna be fun to watch too.

 

[Fridge chutney]

Feck off Arsenal we took points off Liverpool and Villa and it won't even matter!

 

[Malone_Post]

As funny as it is laughing at Arsenal, all it means is Liverpool or City will win the league once again. Pricks.

 

[Robbie Boy]

It’s just a great season to be following the league with a once in lifetime title race like this. It’s any one of 5 teams which is so unusual and the race for fifth has at least 5 also rans so that’s gonna be fun to watch too.

By May, I'm guessing there will be 2 teams max in any realistic title race.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Liverpool's squad isn't amazing, time will tell if they can go the distance plus you can't rule out City. It's an exciting title race this year unless you're a United fan who despises all three clubs.

I definitely fancy City over Liverpool.

 

[Berbaclass]

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[AshRK]

At this rate arsenal are looking at 75 to 80 points and even to do that they have play well. Underwhelming if you ask me. Deep run in CL may be the only thing to make their season look half decent.

 

[dwd]

It's still wide open. There are five teams in the mix and there's not much between them.

I think by the end of the season it will be a close run thing between City and Liverpool, though.

Arsenal will be 15pts+ off at the very least. They’ve been average all season.

 

[SirAF]

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[DJ Jeff]

It’s just a great season to be following the league with a once in lifetime title race like this. It’s any one of 5 teams which is so unusual and the race for fifth has at least 5 also rans so that’s gonna be fun to watch too.

God you guys are unbearably arrogant when you're anywhere near the top. I can't wait til Klopp leaves and you slide back down the table.

 

[WeePat]

Why did Ozil even tweet this?

Anyway, since he tweeted this, Arsenal have played 5 lost 3 and drawn 1. Spurs have played 5 won 4 and lost 1.

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[Berbaclass]

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[Mike Smalling]

It seems like a similar situation to us, in some ways. Poor transfer window in the summer addressing the wrong areas or not getting sufficient quality has led to them taking a step backwards. It's just that they are taking a step back from a much better position than us. Arguably, they have also gotten some narrow results similar to us, which earlier masked the problem.

I think they will get it together and make top four in relative comfort, but the title seems to be between City and Liverpool.

 

[Licha-Vidic]

Even last season you didn't achieve 89 points , you think this season you can achieve that? Anyway.

The Obsession with 19 games as you say it.. Is and I have said it countless times here, if you remove the first 19 games of 2022-23 season in Arteta reign at Arsenal it all comes down to a very standard range of around 30-35 points since 2019.

Most of Arsenal fans live off the first 19 games form of 2022. This is the main problem I have had in this forum. Remove it. Arsenal level through 4 years is almost identical.

So the same pattern is almost being replicated here now. In 10 games range - win 6, lose points in 4 games then Arsenal level over the years will be maintained.

@Daydreamer where are you now? I answered you this and you mocked me for talking about the first 20 games of last season.

I told you, if you remove the first 20 games of last season, Arteta has maintained almost identical range of points through out his Arsenal career.

As of today 31 Dec, 2023.
In last 5 Premier League games you have
Won 1 ( against Brighton)
Drawn 1 ( against Liverpool)
Lost 3 ( against Villa, Westham, Fulham).

Achieving around 40 points in 20 games. Give or take another 30 points in the remaining 18 games to an average of around 68-73 points.

Arsenal will hit the usual brick wall in a 10 game period. Probably it has started now or it will come at around March as usual.

Klopp and Pep are a big level above everyone else bar an off season in them.

 

[TheReligion]

These results are really poor for Arsenal and should be totally unacceptable really.

Wonder if they’ll tinker with the side v Liverpool in the cup (like they did v City last season and got dumped out/gave up the title).

Another psychological test they should be going all out to win in my opinion.

 

[njred]

God you guys are unbearably arrogant when you're anywhere near the top. I can't wait til Klopp leaves and you slide back down the table.

Just because it’s a great title race and doesn’t include united does not make it arrogant to observe the spectacle.

 

[Sassy Colin]

We have had 2 players in what's probably Arteta's preferred 11 out almost all season ( Timber and Partey). IMO Arteta was planning to move on from Zinchenko and use Timber there. Tomi has also been in and out of the squad due to injury. ATM our midfield is quite light with Partey and Jorginho out.

Wow, 2 preferred 1st team players out all season. Try coping with only 2 or 3 preferred 1st team players available all season and then come back and see how you do.

 

[erikcred]

Wow, 2 preferred 1st team players out all season. Try coping with only 2 or 3 preferred 1st team players available all season and then come back and see how you do.

That one-man team Spurs lost their one man this summer. Maybe that should be our inspiration.

 

[Daydreamer]

@Daydreamer where are you now? I answered you this and you mocked me for talking about the first 20 games of last season.

I told you, if you remove the first 20 games of last season, Arteta has maintained almost identical range of points through out his Arsenal career.

As of today 31 Dec, 2023.
In last 5 Premier League games you have
Won 1 ( against Brighton)
Drawn 1 ( against Liverpool)
Lost 3 ( against Villa, Westham, Fulham).

Achieving around 40 points in 20 games. Give or take another 30 points in the remaining 18 games to an average of around 68-73 points.

Arsenal will hit the usual brick wall in a 10 game period. Probably it has started now or it will come at around March as usual.

Klopp and Pep are a big level above everyone else bar an off season in them.

Hey @Licha-Vidic, I hope you’re well. Thanks for asking where I’ve been - that’s so considerate of you. If you meant where was I last night, I was enjoying New Year’s Eve. As much as I love this place, rehashing arguments from months ago wasn’t terribly high on my priority list.

If you meant where have I been generally, the answer is right here. I discuss Arsenal all the time on the forum (not just when we hit bad form, like yourself).

You’ve kind of lost me with the correct barometer for measuring a team’s “true level” as you’ve called it. I thought we had solved this problem by inventing the league system - each team plays all the others home and away and the final table is a great indicator of the relative performance of each team.

That would indicate that Arsenal’s level last season was second best team in the country and one of the challengers for the biggest prizes.

I guess you couldn’t accept that conclusion, so at the start of this season you decided to arbitrarily change the measuring stick to 19 games…

The problem is not what points you have after 6 games, but what points you will have after 19 games.

Arteta is a 30-35 points manager in 19 games. As it happened in the second part of the last season.

So 19 games is how you measure a team. But to be truly accurate, we have to exclude the first 19 games of the most recent season, but also include your predicted points tally for the current season?!?

Meanwhile, in reality, Arsenal gained 40 points after 19 games this season (5-10 points more than our “true level”, apparently). Which would make us *checks notes* the second best team in the country and one of the challengers for the biggest trophies.

But not to worry, you’re basing your argument on your own prediction of our points tally in the second half of the season.

Give or take another 30 points in the remaining 18 games to an average of around 68-73 points.

Yep, why discuss actual results when we can make some up and analyse those instead?

You’ve truly turned cherry-picking into an art form.

Seasons
2020/21: INCLUDE
2021/22: INCLUDE
2022/23: DISMISS

Half Seasons
2022/23 Games 1-19: DISMISS
2022/23 Games 20-38: INCLUDE
2023/24 Games 1-19: DISMISS
2023/24 Games 20-38: INCLUDE (Your own prediction)

Current Season Form
Games 1-6: DISMISS
Games 16-20: INCLUDE

Could you state, in simple terms, how you personally measure a team’s “true level”, please? I’m genuinely curious.

 

[Loon]

I don't know if last season has made them invest more, but their fans have really lost their shit this season already. Imagine if they were in our position?

 

[the_cliff]

I don't know if last season has made them invest more, but their fans have really lost their shit this season already. Imagine if they were in our position?

It's different for them because of how well they performed last season, they also tbf play some really nice stuff sometimes and it seems like the same players that let them down towards the end of last season are doing so again. A lot of Arsenal fans wanted goals this summer and a backup/replacement for Partey, they got one of them but they feel the Havertz signing wasn't needed and it would have been far better had they got a goal scorer or a decent replacement for Saka.

You also have to look at the fact that Arteta has been given adequate time now. They endured 2 seasons of finishing 8th and haven't won a trophy since the FA cup during covid. They have Liverpool in the FA cup next and if they lose that it could well be another trophyless campaign.

 

[Daydreamer]

It's different for them because of how well they performed last season, they also tbf play some really nice stuff sometimes and it seems like the same players that let them down towards the end of last season are doing so again. A lot of Arsenal fans wanted goals this summer and a backup/replacement for Partey, they got one of them but they feel the Havertz signing wasn't needed and it would have been far better had they got a goal scorer or a decent replacement for Saka.

You also have to look at the fact that Arteta has been given adequate time now. They endured 2 seasons of finishing 8th and haven't won a trophy since the FA cup during covid. They have Liverpool in the FA cup next and if they lose that it could well be another trophyless campaign.

I can’t speak for all of the fanbase, but a trophyless season wouldn’t bother me too much if we genuinely challenge for the PL and/or CL. By genuinely challenge, I’m mean in with a shout in May (the PL run-in and CL semi finals).

As for Havertz, he may well come good. But even if he does, I think we still would have been better of keeping Xhaka, selling one of our fringe players and buying a goal-scoring forward. Not even necessarily a striker, a winger to take the strain off of Martinelli and Saka would have been great.

It’s like the purchase of Vieira last year. £35m for him may eventually turn out to be a decent deal (though it’s looking unlikely). But we were short in defence all season and it finally caught up with us in the run-in. We definitely should have spent that money differently.

 

[the_cliff]

I can’t speak for all of the fanbase, but a trophyless season wouldn’t bother me too much if we genuinely challenge for the PL and/or CL. By genuinely challenge, I’m mean in with a shout in May (the PL run-in and CL semi finals).

As for Havertz, he may well come good. But even if he does, I think we still would have been better of keeping Xhaka, selling one of our fringe players and buying a goal-scoring forward. Not even necessarily a striker, a winger to take the strain off of Martinelli and Saka would have been great.

It’s like the purchase of Vieira last year. £35m for him may eventually turn out to be a decent deal (though it’s looking unlikely). But we were short in defence all season and it finally caught up with us in the run-in. We definitely should have spent that money differently.

Just out of curiosity, when do you start considering a trophy less season a failure and Arteta's job under threat ?

 

[Daydreamer]

Just out of curiosity, when do you start considering a trophy less season a failure and Arteta's job under threat ?

Depends entirely on the trophyless season. Liverpool won zero trophies in 2018, but were CL finalists, playing entertaining football and getting better as a team. I don’t think their fans thought of that season as a failure.

On the other hand, if next season we were to drop out of Europe entirely, exit the FA Cup in the 3rd round, finish 7th… but pick up the League Cup through an easy draw - I personally would class that as failure.

Arsenal don’t enter a single competition as favourites. I’m of course disappointed when we don’t win competitions. I’m disappointed when we don’t win games. Hell, I’m disappointed when we don’t win a corner if it came off the opposition defender last. But for me there is a little more nuance to judging my team’s performance beyond trophyless = failure.

I know a lot of fans don’t agree, though.

 

[NewGlory]

Arsenal's middle name is "bottlers", so this doesn't really shock anybody

Good, they can feck off. Last thing I would like to see, after seeing City win treble, is Arsenal winning title before us

I hope Liverpool also bottle it. Let Aston Villa win it, feck it

 

[the_cliff]

Depends entirely on the trophyless season. Liverpool won zero trophies in 2018, but were CL finalists, playing entertaining football and getting better as a team. I don’t think their fans thought of that season as a failure.

On the other hand, if next season we were to drop out of Europe entirely, exit the FA Cup in the 3rd round, finish 7th… but pick up the League Cup through an easy draw - I personally would class that as failure.

Arsenal don’t enter a single competition as favourites. I’m of course disappointed when we don’t win competitions. I’m disappointed when we don’t win games. Hell, I’m disappointed when we don’t win a corner if it came off the opposition defender last. But for me there is a little more nuance to judging my team’s performance beyond trophyless = failure.

I know a lot of fans don’t agree, though.

Yes but Liverpool fans consider that a successful season only because of what they went on to achieve in the 2 seasons after. With performances expectations change, last season you were excellent and I'm sure you'd consider it a successful season but let's say you finish 2nd/3rd this season and don't win any trophies surely you won't consider that a success. Even if you're still in the title race in May.

 

[Daydreamer]

Yes but Liverpool fans consider that a successful season only because of what they went on to achieve in the 2 seasons after. With performances expectations change, last season you were excellent and I'm sure you'd consider it a successful season but let's say you finish 2nd/3rd this season and don't win any trophies surely you won't consider that a success. Even if you're still in the title race in May.

I think you’d have to ask Liverpool fans if they were happy with their team’s performance at the time. My brother is a a Liverpool fan and he was pleased with their efforts that season… so there was at least one.

I’m not sure what you’re looking for here; I thought I gave a fairly detailed response. This feels a little like the posts at the end of last season where United fans were saying Arsenal fans would swap places with them because they United won a trophy, Arsenal didn’t and both teams qualified for the CL. I wouldn't take that swap if offered and was basically told I was lying - which I found kind of funny.

I was happy with my team last year and we finished 2nd to officially the best team on the planet (who may well have cheated to become so). I was very unhappy with my team in 2016 when we finished 2nd to Leicester as we had far more resources than them and seriously underperformed.

TLDR - context matters.

 

[AlexiV]

Liverpool not being in CL helps them a lot.

Thursdays are harder on a league campaign than Tuesdays or Wedsnedays imo.

 

[AlexiV]

Hey @Licha-Vidic, I hope you’re well. Thanks for asking where I’ve been - that’s so considerate of you. If you meant where was I last night, I was enjoying New Year’s Eve. As much as I love this place, rehashing arguments from months ago wasn’t terribly high on my priority list.

If you meant where have I been generally, the answer is right here. I discuss Arsenal all the time on the forum (not just when we hit bad form, like yourself).

You’ve kind of lost me with the correct barometer for measuring a team’s “true level” as you’ve called it. I thought we had solved this problem by inventing the league system - each team plays all the others home and away and the final table is a great indicator of the relative performance of each team.

That would indicate that Arsenal’s level last season was second best team in the country and one of the challengers for the biggest prizes.

I guess you couldn’t accept that conclusion, so at the start of this season you decided to arbitrarily change the measuring stick to 19 games…


So 19 games is how you measure a team. But to be truly accurate, we have to exclude the first 19 games of the most recent season, but also include your predicted points tally for the current season?!?

Meanwhile, in reality, Arsenal gained 40 points after 19 games this season (5-10 points more than our “true level”, apparently). Which would make us *checks notes* the second best team in the country and one of the challengers for the biggest trophies.

But not to worry, you’re basing your argument on your own prediction of our points tally in the second half of the season.


Yep, why discuss actual results when we can make some up and analyse those instead?

You’ve truly turned cherry-picking into an art form.

Seasons
2020/21: INCLUDE
2021/22: INCLUDE
2022/23: DISMISS

Half Seasons
2022/23 Games 1-19: DISMISS
2022/23 Games 20-38: INCLUDE
2023/24 Games 1-19: DISMISS
2023/24 Games 20-38: INCLUDE (Your own prediction)

Current Season Form
Games 1-6: DISMISS
Games 16-20: INCLUDE

Could you state, in simple terms, how you personally measure a team’s “true level”, please? I’m genuinely curious.

Fachts