All fair points but there’s some context to the United you were facing today and you made a struggle of it.
Arsenal 2023/24 - Born to be runner up
- Thread starter horsechoker
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Arsenal will finish on 89 points which is their 2nd best ever I think behind Invincibles (90). Title or no title this season, it's brilliant season and I think they'll win it next year if not this.
No guarantees on what may or may not happen next season. They have been very Fortunate with injuries this season, couple of injuries to key players and they may struggle.
Exactly this. Having their first choice centre back pairing available for 32 of the past 33 league games, while United have had 32 different back fours this season.
I haven't watched much of Arsenal this year so disregard my opinion at will, but we would have beaten them at The Emirates bar a VAR error with Garnacho being wrongly judged offside and fairly confident a full strength United beat them today.
If they're the second best team the EPL has to offer, you can see why there's no English teams left in Europe.
First, pray Liverpool beat Villa
Oh don't worry, we will
That is true. We are nowhere close to City or even Liverpools peak over last 8 years. But if you remove Guardiolas ManCity aside, we have had a campaign what is expected of Champions on the whole.
This ManCity team kept the standards so high that its insane.
If we win at Everton then we would have W16 D1 L1 in this year. The draw was against City away. Its just insane that even that is not enough.
The squad has had injuries. But it may just speak to the depth.
Partey was out a lot. Tomiyasu was out a lot. Timber out all season. Jesus out a lot. Martinelli out a decent stint.
glad havertz and Trossard stepped up
Must have missed something here?
We're always shite at Old Trafford, that's just an annual thing, it's just how shite you are that determines if we can get a result or not.
It's not the 'big games' I'd be most worried about as a Utd fan anyway. Of course the injuries don't help, but that's a by product of buying or relying on injury prone or aging players like Varane, Shaw, and Casemiro.
Injuries to key players can derail anybody's season, except maybe City.
But I think Arsenal's core group is young enough, the manager is young and savvy enough, and the owner is committed enough to continuing to try to improve the side such that we'll have another 3-5 years where we have the ability to compete for the title in any season in which injuries aren't too bad. After last season I think questions could reasonably be asked about whether it was a one off. After this season I'm much more confident that we're here to stay for a while. Getting over the line and winning the league when City is the competition is obviously another matter.
Arsenal could struggle with injuries to key players but we also could easily go up another level. Our left side was basically broken all season, with all sorts of different combinations of left backs, left 8, and left winger and none that really hit form or played cohesively together.
To be fair, I think Arsenal have fielded 26 different back 4’s. It’s one of those stats that always looks mad, but isn’t.
Admittedly, most of those 26 have been good, and anchored by two centre half’s being forever fit.
Not sure I follow the point here, or if there is one. We’ve had horrendous injuries this season. Over 30 different centre back partnerships whilst you’ve has the same one for 32 games or something? That was one stat before the game. Today for example we didn’t have a left back on the pitch and only one centre half, the 36 year old Evans.
Not only that though, no Bruno, Mount or Rashford from the more attacking players.
United’s injuries seem to have been massively downplayed this season. I can’t imagine how anyone else would cope in the same circumstances. Even the young players we’ve had to bring in, like Kambwala, have then got injured themselves. Literally couldn’t write it.
Even today! Our best player in the first half went off injured early in the second half... in his first start this season!
At least he seems okay now
They won't win it next season I think. This is their best ever chance, perhaps. They're a good side but they'be been riding a wave all season and quite honestly I believe that if we had been winning or drawing, todays game would have had 12 minutes injury time. The way their games of late have been refereed it's clear that there is a tacit understanding to keep this title race going because -everybody- is sick of Manchester City and their one horse race.
I'm not downplaying your injuries, they are killing you, but at the same time, your recruitment strategy hasnt helped you is my point.
You bought an aging Varane who had already shown he was struggling to injuries, an aging Casemiro, Mount who was picking up injuries at Chelsea, you still rely on Shaw as first choice left back who finds it difficult to stay fit. That's like us having to rely heavily on Tierney and Partey to stay got and wondering why they can't.
Injuries are of course partly due to luck in some cases, but in others it's not heeding the warning signs.
I speak as a fan that had to live through the early Emirates years of trying to rely on Rosicky, Vermaelen, Diaby, Eduardo, Wilshere, Van Persie, Cazorla etc remaining fit. Every one of them basically had their Arsenal careers ruined by injury.
They're exactly where Liverpool were in May 2019.
If you remember start of the season Arteta was messing about benching Gabriel and playing Partey at RB. Can't say a 2-2 v Fulham in August cost them the league given Man. City dropped a decent number of points in first half of the season but the team they're finishing with this season I think will win the league next year IF they get in an Isak type as the CF.
Havertz second half was just a bystander and offered no ability to hold the ball up when they were just booting it up the pitch for a spell and Gabriel Jesus is lacking confidence and probably knows he'll be moved on so that's the one position where they need a Rice type signing and it may just be enough.
Spine of the team is still young enough to be around when Pep fecks off anyway which is important so they don't need to panic at all. Rice, Saka, Odegaard, Martinelli, Saliba all 25 or under still.
If you remember start of the season Arteta was messing about benching Gabriel and playing Partey at RB. Can't say a 2-2 v Fulham in August cost them the league given Man. City dropped a decent number of points in first half of the season but the team they're finishing with this season I think will win the league next year IF they get in an Isak type as the CF.
Havertz second half was just a bystander and offered no ability to hold the ball up when they were just booting it up the pitch for a spell and Gabriel Jesus is lacking confidence and probably knows he'll be moved on so that's the one position where they need a Rice type signing and it may just be enough.
Spine of the team is still young enough to be around when Pep fecks off anyway which is important so they don't need to panic at all. Rice, Saka, Odegaard, Martinelli, Saliba all 25 or under still.
It's actually been insane. Any other team (cough Newcastle) gets endless weeks and months of stories of coverage about their injuries. Liverpool had nowhere near the level of toxic jibes we had for their injury situation last season and frankly the double standards are grating. It's been the weirdest, most horrendous season for us.
Don't you guys believe at some point, it is the players you have that contribute to having an injury crisis? I say that as for the better part of the last 15 years we saw key Arsenal players consistently injured. This is the first stretch where we have done relatively well in this regard. But even then when we look at our injuries this season it is generally also the same ones...Tomi Jesus ESR Partey. You cannot rely on players like this
You can get some bad luck but your players injury records contribute to the problem. Our core has been relatively reliable (so far). It isn't luck I believe for the most part.
Varane and Martinez are a problem imo. I think Varane is by far the better CB but he has some fitness issues it seems to me. Martinez, I don't rate at all. Reminds me way too much of Koscielny. Both need to be replaced if Man Utd wants to challenge again. A solid CB pairing is the starting point. It is what has allowed us to get back to where we are.
This much is true.
Not that I necessarily disagree as I can't predict what the competition will be like next season, but people have said this about Arsenal since we got pipped to fourth by Spurs in 2021-22, and each time we have actually just got better. 69 pts -> 84 pts -> 86/89 pts. We might plateau or tail off here but there doesn't seem to be much evidence of it yet.
Young squad, more CL dosh to improve the team, manager doesn't look like he's going anywhere. I may be wrong but I think be challenging for a while.
They're young, they're a great side. I don't think anyone's doubting that. But we've often outplayed them even in the shambles we are in, and it doesn't take a lot to change a teams mindset completely. If they hit the ground running next season, sure? But we'll see. Still this season to go yet. I hope they succeed, would be incredible if we manage to beat City their patch somehow to gift Arsenal the league.
This is another thing I like about Arteta. Our injury plagued players under him, Partey, Smith-Rowe, Zinchenko, Jesus, Tomiyasu... hes lessened the reliance on each and every one of them.
Arsenal at OT has not played well or won for a long time just like at Etihad or Anfield. We won 1 and drew at 2 other places. Honestly can't ask for more.
At the start of the season my criteria for progress were
1. 85+ pts (compared to 84 last year)
2. Good performances against City/Liverpool.
3. Good Cup/CL run.
We have done the first two well.
Cup/CL run is something to improve on. But not something to sweat over. CL QF was a decent campaign.
Next season should be
1. 90+ pts
2. CL QF and above atleast (ideally SF/F)
3. Ideally FA cup (atleast Finals)
4. A win at Anfield/Etihad would be great.
With cups it hard as it depends on who you are drawn against.
Come on guys, be realistic, 90+ points?? You won't have the same luck with injuries, your second team is miles off, you exited the cups early once again and would be a joke if you did that again for a third consecutive year.
Really need Spurs to lay down and die midweek but it would be the most Spursy of all Spurs things to take points off City and gift Arsenal the title while failing to come Top 4 themselves.
Would be unbelievably funny.
But it would also open up the possibility of us doing a Dortmund style choke, so I wouldn't celebrate too hard on Tuesday if they do manage to do something.
For a team that was supposed to have a big say in the title race Spurs have done nothing. I really hope they pull it together and get you the title.
I am not saying we will surely get 90+ next year but that has to be the target. It seems that is minimum requirement to win PL these days so atleast get there. Most likely we will get 89 this year.
If we get 90+ and City still best is with 95+ then nothing we can do. But 90+ should be the target.
At present if you dont have that as a target you are not a serious contender.
Oh I actually want this to be true now. The stuff of legends.
A forward and another CM and 90+ points is possible. We might finish on 89 pts this season so I do not see why not. We could also struggle a lot more next season, but I think Arteta has built a solid foundation here. We have to keep our core together and keep bringing in some quality players. We need more counter attacking threat than we have I feel for starters.
Might still be that City goes out and gets 95 pts next season. They just always seem capable of stepping up.
Might still be that City goes out and gets 95 pts next season. They just always seem capable of stepping up.
Have been saying it for the last week (on the presumption Arsenal beat us) that it would be absoulutely the most Spursy thing for Spurs to do to then go out and beat City and put Arsenal in the driving seat.
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It was getting frustrating over the years wondering how much of our lineup would be available at various times in the season. If I had some money for every time I heard... it's like getting a new player ....when a player was coming off a long term injury. You cannot control all injuries, but you can alleviate some headaches by not relying on injury prone players. I look at Neto at Wolves and although I would like to see him play for us (Saka dilemma aside), but then I am reminded you cannot put your squad together like this.
Arteta had that figured out indeed.
Some weird bitterness and conspiracy theories on here.
They're a young side who are improving season on season. They keep getting around the 90 points mark they'll likely win it eventually, it's just whether it's before or after Pep leaves. City are basically guaranteed a big points tally for as long as Pep is still there so there's always a chance they just keep falling short, similar to Liverpool but Liverpool did manage to bag 1.
When Liverpool got 98 points and finished 2nd people thought they'd missed their chance as they'd done as much as they possibly could and still not won it. But they went on win the league easily the following season.
There were some bizarre predictions on here that Arsenal would struggle for top 4 this year because their title challenge last year was a one-off fluke. And they've followed it up by improving. Annoyingly I don't see any reason why they'd drop off.
Whole stadium should be booing whenever the ball goes in to cities third
A good point. Villa beat Liverpool and Spurs really have nothing to play for against City.
Today was a very matured performance by them. They were not at their fluent best and it could have backfired maybe if United had Bruno and Rashford but ultimately they shut stop and took the 3 points. Great work by Arteta and Arsenal players. Kudos.
Yeah they will definitely not care then
You don't rate Martinez, your manager does hence why you bid £50m for him.
Arsenal wanted Martinez as a left back, we got Zinchenko instead. Not sure how much he's played there for you. Arteta's preferences at centre back seem obvious enough - he wants physical monsters.
Like he should in this league.
Arteta definitely wanted to play Martinez as a left back who inverts in the midfield. Licha would have been great on that position as he is tenacious and is excellent on the ball with a good passing range. I hope that's how we play him from next season.