Na I don't think so. Once the knockout stages of Europe starts I can see him resting players again and getting knocked out by a Stoke or someone. And anyway Chelsea pretty much get walkovers to the semis and they'll most definitely take care of Arsenal if and when they meet. The League Cup however I can see them winning since besides us they don't really have much competition.
Arsenal > Chelsea
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
But their not mentally fragile. Always just lacking squad depth
Yet it's the open cup they don't really rate. For me why I think it might be the FA Cup. They might not meet chslea. And by the time it's latter stages come it might be the only thing they can win. Any way, time will tell.
yes. Jopub is a Manc...thats why he says United play shit football.
Kerist....
'quality' was not the issue - bottle , staying power and doing the talking on the pitch was
yes. Jopub is a Manc...thats why he says United play shit football.
Kerist....
I beg your pardon good sir, now you're really sinking to depths never before reached
Yeah, Man Utd lost the league last year because they got knocked out of the cup at home by Leeds. S'obvious.
No they did'nt lose the league because of that and how dumb to even compare those two scenarios.
We were completely annihilated at Old Trafford by our closest title rivals who were hot on our heels in the title race, more importantly, the manner in which we lost allied to our players fragile mental situation lead us on to the path of self destruction - something that under Wenger doe'snt take an awful lot to trigger off.
Hardly the same or anything like the Utd Leeds situation
If you cant see that then you're blind
It's exactly the same scenario - a cup game which did Man Utd's mental strenff in so they blew two points at Brum a couple of day later - the exact same margin by which they lost the league. S'obvious.
I beg your pardon good sir, now you're really sinking to depths never before reached
When Chelsea looked unstoppable early on and we were pretty dire, though not quite 'shit'
, I said I would be happy just to qualify for the CL. Unless Rooney really comes 'back' and some of our midfield players start stepping up, I cannot see us really competing. In every area, we have some weakness. The main area is midfield and Fergie has to take some blame for depending too much on Scholes and 'hoping' the likes of Carrick and Anderson will somehow turn 'good'. Lets not mention Hargreaves btw. Fletcher as capabale as he has been is limited.So there you have it.
As for Arsenal, I have not seen anything dramatically different from the last year or so. They still play some great football, but the revealing fact is that Wenger complians about the likes of Fletcher 'kicking' his players. That really is where Wenger sees his side lacking, the Viera type of player. Song is capable and looks sharp attacking, but when he has to tackle, he does seem reckless. He may well improve.
The similarity to United is Arsenal have invested in youth and some are obviously coming good. It may all gell and they may come good in Spring, but they do look inconsistent atm.
But I would not be surprised if they do go on and win the darn thing...heck any of 4 or 5 can do it seems. But for that to happen, Chelsea will have to remain an awful side for the rest of the season. I don't think that will happen.
Just quoting this post to get into the general sub-conversation about SOng and Fletcher.
I already said above I think they're similarly effective players with similar qualities. I also said they're similar enough that the context in which we evaluate their play -- you know, one for Arsenal, one for Utd, different teammates, different tactics, etc. -- it'd be hard to prefer one to the other. (Sadly, no one has taken up my suggestion to try to look at in that perspective.)
But. One thing that needs to be said in comparing Song to Fletcher is that Song is 23 and Fletcher is 26. Fletcher, that is, is just now entering his prime years; Song is still progressing towards those years. In my admittedly vague memory, Fletcher really started to prove himself at age 23. I know before that he had a lot (not all) Utd fans in a bit of a despair. Imo, Song really started to prove himself last year though I can ('cause I've followed him more closely of course) that there were some real promising signs back when he was only 20. In any case, any head-to-head comparison of the players has to take into account the difference in age, which means a difference in development and experience both.
Rio?
No. Arsenal Chelsea Liverpool and United all drew at Birmingham. Losing to Leeds had no effect on that. They were unbeaten for a year or something at home. I doubt we'd have won even if we had re signed Ronaldo for that game.
That's an interesting standard to employ. I like it -- it separates it out into two different categories, the obvious and the arguable.
As a gooner, I think Vidic is the only OBVIOUS utd player I'd put into our team. Rio is of course tempting, but I wouldn't trust him to stay fit even for this season; back issues are notorious. VDS, of course, could come in, but it would just be for a year (retirement stuff), so if I'm thinking of trying to win the title this year, definitely, but if I'm building a team -- you know, making transfer deals and the like, I wouldn't take him.
I'd put Evra into the "arguable" category -- partially because of his poor form right now, and partially because of his age, and I think Gibbs will develop well. (I want him to replace Clichy yesterday). Strangely enough, Rooney is arguable too (as I assume RVP is for you). Not so much because of recent poor form -- he's obviously world-class -- just because we have a good system for attack right now, and the right players to implement it. Rooney -- I just don't know how integrating him in would affect things. I think both Arshavin and Nasri have, I dunno, call them mental issues that get in the way of their undoubted talent. Might as well keep the wanker I know. Scholes and Giggs -- obviously class, but obviously on their way towards retirement. And I think that's the end of the "arguable" category.
Anyone else you think I should be considering? And don't even suggest replacing Eboue. He's always number 1 on my personal team sheet.
Yeah Vidic would walk into your team. Rio, if fit, then yeah. Evra even though in poor form I think is definitely better than Clichy. So for the present Evra should get in.
Why would you not have Rooney though? I think he would fit in well in your team. As he showed last season he can be brilliant in the lone striker role but yes he will need better service than the type Walcott can provide.
Rio, Vidic, VDS, Rooney, and Evra would all easily walk into your team. Maybe Nani although you guys do have a lot of AM. With everyone fit on both sides I would def take Fab and RvP for the United team. Maybe Nasri. So it's close enough I guess
These player by player analyses from rival fans inevitably end up with barely a couple of United players in the mix. It's always been the case. Even throughout our three league titles on the trot. Go figure.
Nani wouldn't make it into Arsenal's team?
Nani/Rooney/Scholes/Fletcher/Ferdinand/Vidic/Evra/Van Der Sar would all stroll into Arsenals team.
Scholesy is the only one I'm not sure about which is strange given he is the one who really makes us tick. But in the midfield three they have Fabregas and Nasri, both young and at the peak of their powers.
Yup, most fans seem to have an over-inflated opinion of their team - Arsenal fans worse than most.
I remember one arguing with me about 6/7 years ago that Quincy Owusu-Abeyie was a better prospect than Cristiano Ronaldo.
Gooners are almost approaching Newcastle/Liverpool fan levels of delusion.
I can't wait to see pete and Alastair return to this thread now
if you're talking about my post just above, then you've ignored the important distinction wr8_utd introduced between OBVIOUS and ARGUABLE players. I wasn't saying, for example, that I wouldn't take Evra -- only, I guess, that I'd have to cogitate on it for a bit. It'd be an argument, one that an Evra booster would probably win.
Otherwise, your post bothers me because (if responding to mine) I find it dismissive and disrespectful. That's because it doesn't seem like you took time to try to understand how I was thinking about the question. I'd've loved it if you explained why you think, I dunno, Nani should get in ahead of Arshavin. That'd be an interesting conversation to have, and if you have a sense of me as a poster, then you probably know I'd try to make it a polite and reasonable one.
Evra is as obvious as it gets, well apart from Vidic. And players like Rooney, you have to fit them in, they're that good.
For example, I can't imagine us not finding a way of making place for Fabregas and Van Persie. We usually play a 442 whereas Fabregas thrives more in a three man midfield given extra freedom, but still you have to make room for a player of that caliber. Same with Rooney and to a lesser extent but still the case with Van Persie.
And Nani pisses all over your wide players, with all due respect. He's been amazing since last season.
And Nani pisses all over your wide players, with all due respect. He's been amazing since last season.
Nasri has been very good for them this year, and Arshavin is moody but quality on the other side at times; I could see why Nani wouldnt start every match like he does at United. That said if he keeps improving he will get to a level where he is far better than both players, but right now there isnt that much in numbers aside
Dump Arshavin. Start both Nani and Nasri.
I don't see the comparison between Arshavin and Nani to be honest. One has had moments of brilliance in English football but in general just faded away due to having a strange attitude while Nani has become our best attacker at the present moment. Something similar to what Nasri has been doing for Arsenal. Those two, being the current most potent attackers of their teams would have to be chosen.
thats the same Nani that went 'through' two Arsenal players like they were not there to score that goal
Nani wouldn't make it into Arsenal's team?
Cant agree with that I don't think they would and that's based on what we need .
Going forward and creatively from midfield I see no problems for us with the personnel we have already. On top form van Persie Fabregas Nasri Walcott even Arshavin Rosicky Chamak and Bendtner will create and score goals -plenty of 'em. We would'nt need Scholes Nani Berbatov Macheda etc to do what we can already adequately do
At the back its a different story
VDSaar, a fit Rio, Vidic and Evra are a given for me. I'd keep Sagna as he'll improve
Those are the Utd players for me who'd get into our side
I dont think Wenger's has ever really understood defensive ability. He inherited one of the greatest defences ever and never really learned how it would need to be replaced as has been shown spectacularly in the goalkeeping department, which he will have forever as a big blot on his copybook.
(amendment : I'd take Fletcher as well because since Wenger insanely let Flamini go we've lacked in the purely in your face aggressive energetic ballwinner which Flamini had become fantastic at)
......which Almunia palmed nicely into his own netthats the same Nani that went 'through' two Arsenal players like they were not there to score that goal
You wouldn't take Rooney over the likes of chamakh And Van persie whos always injured? also Nani has vastly outperformed Arshavin for about a year now.
From Arsenal id take Nasri whos been in great form for you, id obviously take Fabregas as hes just class without question and probably Van Persie if he could ever prove his fitness.
Would anyone argue this isnt the best combined team given the 2 squads?
..............................Rooney
...Van Der Sar
Sagna Ferdinand Vidic Evra
Fletcher Scholes
.....Fabregas
..Nani........................Nasri
Agree with that.
Hard to argue with that.
Combined 'best of' is a bit unreal though is'nt - it simply gathers together the so called final best of compilation without taking into account the clubs, differing managers, styles, tactics, etc etc
I'd fancy our best attacking force all fit and on form to equal anything scoring wise by Utd
At the back and defensively however, that's a different story and
I do think this side would be pretty handy, score plenty against anybody and defend well
vDS
Evra Rio Vidic Sagna
Fabregas Fletcher Song Nasri
Arshavin van Persie
I'd fancy our best attacking force all fit and on form to equal anything scoring wise by Utd
At the back and defensively however, that's a different story and
I do think this side would be pretty handy, score plenty against anybody and defend well
vDS
Evra Rio Vidic Sagna
Fabregas Fletcher Song Nasri
Arshavin van Persie
Of course Rooney would come on when Van Persie inevitably hobbles off after 5 mins