As United fans, in particular, do we miss the levels of over-achievement that we were accustomed to?

[Fortitude]

One thing I thought yesterday when seeing the lineup without Pogba was: how bad is this going to get? Even with Pogba, I'm not sure we could have gotten anything out of the game.

Contrast this to Fergie winning league titles with teams others would be lucky to get top 4 with. Even on a game by game basis where he would pick an xi we'd all look over with an eyebrow raised only, more often than not, to be proven wrong as a misfit xi went out there and got the result for us, which, in turn, ensured you could never go into a Ferguson-managed game absolutely certain we couldn't get the desired result.

Does it feel to anyone else now, that like the majority of the footballing world, without the best players almost on a man-to-man basis, we don't really go into any game expecting anything but the worst?

We've had a number of adjustments to make as supporters in the post-Fergie era, but this one, where the miraculous had a chance of happening has taken us down a peg or two just as no longer going into the majority of games fully expectant of 3pts.

Has this contrast ever struck a chord with you?

 

[2cents]

Contrast this to Fergie winning league titles with teams others would be lucky to get top 4 with. Even on a game by game basis where he would pick an xi we'd all look over with an eyebrow raised only, more often than not, to be proven wrong as a misfit xi went out there and got the result for us

This only really happened in the last few years with Fergie. Even then it's debatable.

 

[charlenefan]

One thing I thought yesterday when seeing the lineup without Pogba was: how bad is this going to get? Even with Pogba, I'm not sure we could have gotten anything out of the game.

True but you speak of Fergie's time and I remember the Derby which essentially clinched City's first title and that was also a game where we didn't have a single shot on target all game

 

[Matt007a]

We definitely over achieved in the final year of Fergie's reign, but really he never came up against a team as good as this City side currently is. We shouldn't expect to win just because of who we are and what our history says and we shouldn't expect to over achieve.

Saying that I think we did over achieve last season. We finished 2nd despite not being the 2nd best side on paper. It's nice when it happens and you obviously miss it when times are tough like they are this season, but you have to be realistic about where the squad is right now.

Hard times are just starting if you ask me. The board and the manager are both behind the times and it shows. You can argue all you want about City's money, but they are where they are because they've spent 10 years building their club behind the scenes the right way, while we've been doing the opposite.

 

[stevoc]

One thing I thought yesterday when seeing the lineup without Pogba was: how bad is this going to get? Even with Pogba, I'm not sure we could have gotten anything out of the game.

Contrast this to Fergie winning league titles with teams others would be lucky to get top 4 with. Even on a game by game basis where he would pick an xi we'd all look over with an eyebrow raised only, more often than not, to be proven wrong as a misfit xi went out there and got the result for us, which, in turn, ensured you could never go into a Ferguson-managed game absolutely certain we couldn't get the desired result.

Does it feel to anyone else now, that like the majority of the footballing world, without the best players almost on a man-to-man basis, we don't really go into any game expecting anything but the worst?

We've had a number of adjustments to make as supporters in the post-Fergie era, but this one, where the miraculous had a chance of happening has taken us down a peg or two just as no longer going into the majority of games fully expectant of 3pts.

Has this contrast ever struck a chord with you?

That never actually happened. Ferguson didn't always have the best players/teams but he never had a mid-table side either. He was a genius not a magician.

His last team was arguably his weakest title winning side mostly because as he knew he was winding down so he let too many key players get the wrong side of 30. But that team/squad was still better in most positions than the current one.

Theres no mystery to our recent struggles and why we are so far behind the likes of City, we just don't have a very good squad team/squad right now. Van Gaal decimated Fergusons last squad and replaced most of it with shite. Mourinho has tried to rectify that with short term signings like Zlatan but has also had to make compromises in quality to get some quantity in see Bailly/Lindelof he has also made his own poor signings like Sanchez/Mkhitaryan and to an extent Matic. We started yesterdays game with only 2 Mourinho signings in the side 3 years into Mourinhos reign. For comparison 7-8 of City's players were been signed by Guardiola in a similar time frame. Which says it all really.

Pep & City started with a better squad and have spent even more to improve upon it. We are playing catch up down to mismanagement at boardroom and manager level.

 

[Maticmaker]

We definitely over achieved in the final year of Fergie's reign, but really he never came up against a team as good as this City side currently is. We shouldn't expect to win just because of who we are and what our history says and we shouldn't expect to over achieve.

Saying that I think we did over achieve last season. We finished 2nd despite not being the 2nd best side on paper. It's nice when it happens and you obviously miss it when times are tough like they are this season, but you have to be realistic about where the squad is right now.

Hard times are just starting if you ask me. The board and the manager are both behind the times and it shows. You can argue all you want about City's money, but they are where they are because they've spent 10 years building their club behind the scenes the right way, while we've been doing the opposite.

Unfortunately I think you are quite right about this, it is just not on the pitch but off it as well that we lag very much behind City. The whole management of the club, in leadership terms, was hollowed out after SAF and David Gill left. When the Glazers bought United, in effect the main asset they bought was SAF, as a proven regular winner, that's gone now, anf worse stil there was no succession planning, at least none that was obvious. We are now jumping from pillar to post and the only firm decision that seems to be made at OT, is that gender neutral toilets will be available next year.

 

[Needham]

This only really happened in the last few years with Fergie. Even then it's debatable.

Debatable? You're talking constant lowercase poom. When Fergie sold Evra took even Neil Webb on his post round by surprise over the course of the 12/13 season. With or without quim. Then came the Moyes helicoptering Mata rest is the smell of a scouse pub following the smoking ban. Fergie Atko even Joe Kinnear all had Irish blood hated Keano's websites saying Tom Ince is not Paul Ince's real daughter. Now you can blame transfer policy while the ICF generals never brought it to Wythenshawe in 06, 07, 08, and good british beefy beef pies feck off I'd never vote for George Weah. Same old posters wanting Pogba's agent gassed in a central midfield 2 hope anger despair Whiteside's very arched nose.

 

[Fortitude]

This only really happened in the last few years with Fergie. Even then it's debatable.

Er.. so it did happen, then? Not sure what your point is? When the funds dried up and the squad was past its best, Fergie worked wonders and shuffled the pack to eke out results. Granted RVP was in the form of a super hero, but still, there's more to a team than one leading light.

There are countless occasions on here when the lineups pre-game were slated, even when we had elite squads and Fergie would rotate and still get the results that made people hold their tongue the next time. He was renowned for getting the utmost out of whatever he put out on the pitch.

True but you speak of Fergie's time and I remember the Derby which essentially clinched City's first title and that was also a game where we didn't have a single shot on target all game

It's obviously not 100% and sometimes did backfire, but it worked for him more often than not to be contested as the selections of a mad man.

We definitely over achieved in the final year of Fergie's reign, but really he never came up against a team as good as this City side currently is. We shouldn't expect to win just because of who we are and what our history says and we shouldn't expect to over achieve.

Saying that I think we did over achieve last season. We finished 2nd despite not being the 2nd best side on paper. It's nice when it happens and you obviously miss it when times are tough like they are this season, but you have to be realistic about where the squad is right now.

Hard times are just starting if you ask me. The board and the manager are both behind the times and it shows. You can argue all you want about City's money, but they are where they are because they've spent 10 years building their club behind the scenes the right way, while we've been doing the opposite.

It's not just the last game I'm referring to, it's all of the games where there's something on the line and we're not the outright favourites to win from the outset.

That never actually happened. Ferguson didn't always have the best players/teams but he never had a mid-table side either. He was a genius not a magician.

His last team was arguably his weakest title winning side mostly because as he knew he was winding down so he let too many key players get the wrong side of 30. But that team/squad was still better in most positions than the current one.

Theres no mystery to our recent struggles and why we are so far behind the likes of City, we just don't have a very good squad team/squad right now. Van Gaal decimated Fergusons last squad and replaced most of it with shite. Mourinho has tried to rectify that with short term signings like Zlatan but has also had to make compromises in quality to get some quantity in see Bailly/Lindelof he has also made his own poor signings like Sanchez/Mkhitaryan and to an extent Matic. We started yesterdays game with only 2 Mourinho signings in the side 3 years into Mourinhos reign. For comparison 7-8 of City's players were been signed by Guardiola in a similar time frame. Which says it all really.

Pep & City started with a better squad and have spent even more to improve upon it. We are playing catch up down to mismanagement at boardroom and manager level.

We're nowhere near a mid-table side. I don't know if this is a notion that is creeping into the narrative because of how we play like underdogs or set up like we haven't a hope - I don't think many would say Fergie's last team was any worse than this one without the retrospective of how this season has panned out.

 

[Offsideagain]

Debatable? You're talking constant lowercase poom. When Fergie sold Evra took even Neil Webb on his post round by surprise over the course of the 12/13 season. With or without quim. Then came the Moyes helicoptering Mata rest is the smell of a scouse pub following the smoking ban. Fergie Atko even Joe Kinnear all had Irish blood hated Keano's websites saying Tom Ince is not Paul Ince's real daughter. Now you can blame transfer policy while the ICF generals never brought it to Wythenshawe in 06, 07, 08, and good british beefy beef pies feck off I'd never vote for George Weah. Same old posters wanting Pogba's agent gassed in a central midfield 2 hope anger despair Whiteside's very arched nose.

Can I have a pint of whatever you’re on?

 

[Jacko21]

You have to take the rough with the smooth.

Sadly for us, our relative 'lean-years' have have come at a time when Liverpool are resurgent and Manchester City are bearing a considerable amount of fruit from their 'project.'

It is a dystopian nightmare for us United fans and it exacerbates things no end.

We'll return though.

 

[Raw]

We started yesterdays game with only 2 Mourinho signings in the side 3 years into Mourinhos reign. For comparison 7-8 of City's players were been signed by Guardiola in a similar time frame

When you put it that way it really is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[stevoc]

We're nowhere near a mid-table side. I don't know if this is a notion that is creeping into the narrative because of how we play like underdogs or set up like we haven't a hope -

Eh i never said we were mate. You said in your original post Ferguson won titles with teams others would be lucky to get in the top 4 with, implying Ferguson had mid-table level sides. Thats what i was referring to.

I don't think many would say Fergie's last team was any worse than this one without the retrospective of how this season has panned out.

True but thats mostly because that side was better.

 

[Judas]

I think it would be easier to take if we didn't spend like a successful team and had less quality players. We've got the some of the ingredients and potential to still be right up there, and we're nowhere near.

 

[stevoc]

When you put it that way it really is absolutely ridiculous.

Yeah it is, without injuries Pogba and Lukaku probably start to bring it up to 4, but even then it's not like Lukaku, Lindelof and Matic have all been rip roaring successes. Most of Peps buys are playing well.

 

[CA1]

I think it would be easier to take if we didn't spend like a successful team and had less quality players. We've got the some of the ingredients and potential to still be right up there, and we're nowhere near.

We don't have many quality players at all.

Lindelof gets praised for not gifting goals away. That is now our level.

 

[Rajma]

Debatable? You're talking constant lowercase poom. When Fergie sold Evra took even Neil Webb on his post round by surprise over the course of the 12/13 season. With or without quim. Then came the Moyes helicoptering Mata rest is the smell of a scouse pub following the smoking ban. Fergie Atko even Joe Kinnear all had Irish blood hated Keano's websites saying Tom Ince is not Paul Ince's real daughter. Now you can blame transfer policy while the ICF generals never brought it to Wythenshawe in 06, 07, 08, and good british beefy beef pies feck off I'd never vote for George Weah. Same old posters wanting Pogba's agent gassed in a central midfield 2 hope anger despair Whiteside's very arched nose.

I find it difficult to agree with your second point. Imo it has been taken out of context.

 

[Judas]

We don't have many quality players at all.

Lindelof gets praised for not gifting goals away. That is now our level.

We've got a few, but for the money we've spent we should have a lot more. You'll never catch me saying Lindelof is one of them, not on the evidence presented so far.

We've still got enough good players to not have dropped as many stupid points this season.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

We don't have many quality players at all.

Lindelof gets praised for not gifting goals away. That is now our level.

And Lingard for 'running and being a local lad'. I think that's even worse tbh.

 

[Raw]

Yeah it is, without injuries Pogba and Lukaku probably start to bring it up to 4, but even then it's not like Lukaku, Lindelof and Matic have all been rip roaring successes. Most of Peps buys are playing well.

Plus Pep had 3 of his signings on the bench anyway so he had 10 players that he bought in the full lineup. We had 5, 3 on the bench (including a £50m unused substitute). And he took over a better team. What the feck have we been doing all this time!?

 

[2cents]

Er.. so it did happen, then? Not sure what your point is?

I probably misunderstood - your post made it seem as though a regular feature of the Fergie years was us winning the title against the odds with a below-par squad. I think this might only apply for the last two title wins (10/11 & 12/13) but even in those cases it's debatable as the competition was quite a low standard both years. The only other season I can think of where it initially seemed this way was 95/96, which began with really low expectations after a season of last gasp failure and a summer of discontent that would have today's Cafe membership in therapy. But it soon became clear that we had been blessed with a new crop of quality youngsters.

 

[stevoc]

Plus Pep had 3 of his signings on the bench anyway so he had 10 players that he bought in the full lineup. We had 5, 3 on the bench (including a £50m unused substitute). And he took over a better team. What the feck have we been doing all this time!?

Mostly hiring Charlatans like Moyes or past it coaches like LVG and letting transfer windows pass by without reinforcement in Moyes case or allowing Van Gaal to sell/buy 30-40 players in 18 months. In my opinion thats the root cause of the current squad being weak.

 

[P-Nut]

We're not set up from top to bottom to go toe to toe with the big sides currently.

We need to take a step back and say ' right this is the mess we're in and it's going to take a couple of years to sort out'

Then we relieve a bit of the pressure to succeed in the short term and can focus on building a side to challenge moving forwards.

No more short term signings to get us up to speed in the mean time. Allow players like Periera to learn on the job, instead of keeping him benched for fear of falling further behind.

Just going through our current squad there are so many older players who don't add enough to warrant taking a younger players position.

Matic - Defensive liability, hinders attacking progression
Mata - Not enough starts (warranted or not)
Valencia - Injuries and now out of favour
Young - Excellent attitude, lacking in quality
Fellaini - If we had money spare he'd have been gone in the summer
Sanchez - Not done enough to warrant astronomical wages

Now obviously you wouldn't remove all 6. But cutting the 6 above down to 2 or so would allow us to be in more youngsters and build for the future whilst we're obviously not going to be competing for the title any time soon.

 

[Greck]

Especially hate the manager's constant attempts to lower expectations. It's like he wants us to go into every game thinking we're Everton so we feel blessed everytime we eek out a result

 

[amolbhatia50k]

One thing I thought yesterday when seeing the lineup without Pogba was: how bad is this going to get? Even with Pogba, I'm not sure we could have gotten anything out of the game.

Contrast this to Fergie winning league titles with teams others would be lucky to get top 4 with. Even on a game by game basis where he would pick an xi we'd all look over with an eyebrow raised only, more often than not, to be proven wrong as a misfit xi went out there and got the result for us, which, in turn, ensured you could never go into a Ferguson-managed game absolutely certain we couldn't get the desired result.

Does it feel to anyone else now, that like the majority of the footballing world, without the best players almost on a man-to-man basis, we don't really go into any game expecting anything but the worst?

We've had a number of adjustments to make as supporters in the post-Fergie era, but this one, where the miraculous had a chance of happening has taken us down a peg or two just as no longer going into the majority of games fully expectant of 3pts.

Has this contrast ever struck a chord with you?

I'm not sure what you're asking? We used to over achieve and now can't get used to not doing so? Is that the gist of it?

The biggest difference for me is that the joy has been sucked out of our football. Whether it was our title winning teams or the 2003-2006 phase, I used to be hooked to the telly every game. Now, I ensure as much as I watch. It's a really strange experience and one I didn't expect United to become for me. Maybe that's why I favour Martial alot as well. He's one bright spark (alongwith Pogba) that brings a little bit of joy here and there.

 

[SuperiorXI]

We're in a rut and the list of causes is longer than a monologue of why Moyes thinks he deserved more time as a Manchester United manager.

We are where we are and the club strikes me as reactionary. Slapping on band aid after band aid rather than giving the club the surgery it needs to keep up with the times.

The quicker they pull their heads out the sand the quicker we will be on the road to recovery. I actually don't think this will happen. The board and CEO are deluded by the current cash flow. For christ sake there are quotes that our CEO doesn't care about performances on the pitch as the money keeps coming in. This will all dry up sooner rather than later because of the direction our football is going.

 

[Fortitude]

Eh i never said we were mate. You said in your original post Ferguson won titles with teams others would be lucky to get in the top 4 with, implying Ferguson had mid-table level sides. Thats what i was referring to.



True but thats mostly because that side was better.

The side was better because it was coached and motivated, but I don't think people would say on an individual level they were better - until now, i.e. if you asked that question at the end of last season after we came second, you'd get an entirely different answer to what you would now.

I find it difficult to agree with your second point. Imo it has been taken out of context.

I probably misunderstood - your post made it seem as though a regular feature of the Fergie years was us winning the title against the odds with a below-par squad. I think this might only apply for the last two title wins (10/11 & 12/13) but even in those cases it's debatable as the competition was quite a low standard both years. The only other season I can think of where it initially seemed this way was 95/96, which began with really low expectations after a season of last gasp failure and a summer of discontent that would have today's Cafe membership in therapy. But it soon became clear that we had been blessed with a new crop of quality youngsters.

One season would be enough, but there was a run, at the end, where we weren't a force and needed new, elite players to go back up the totem to what we had been just a few years prior. We marched on regardless with a manager who showed us what was possible despite resources, or squad, not being the best. We weren't a team you could definitively write off, and I really feel like that's missing from us as a club these days.

I'm not sure what you're asking? We used to over achieve and now can't get used to not doing so? Is that the gist of it?

The biggest difference for me is that the joy has been sucked out of our football. Whether it was our title winning teams or the 2003-2006 phase, I used to be hooked to the telly every game. Now, I ensure as much as I watch. It's a really strange experience and one I didn't expect United to become for me. Maybe that's why I favour Martial alot as well. He's one bright spark (alongwith Pogba) that brings a little bit of joy here and there.

More that, no matter how the games went, we would be glued to the game, and have hope that things could happen even when our teamsheet wasn't impressive, and further, it could even extend to league titles with teams who had no right to be doing that.

I agree about your joy point, too, as that's what has been hollowed out for the most part when watching us play.

 

[Fully Fledged]

We didn’t overachieve.

 

[Josep Dowling]

We didn’t overachieve.

Exactly my thoughts, the under rating of some of Ferguson' squads are baffling. No other sides managed to win back-to-back titles like they did. But they always seem to fault the opposition for being weak in those seasons rather than United being strong.

 

[donkeyfish]

Most of the underwhelming teams Sir Alex had were still consistent and relatively mistake-free. Boring players and few shots on goal maybe, but even playing 2-3 academy players that ultimately ended up in League 2 we were solid.

That solidity is completely gone. Perhaps measured in Fifa stats some of his later squads were poor, but they had a fantastic mentality.

 

[bosnian_red]

I dont like this trend of people claiming we had mediocre squads and Fergie just worked his magic for 25 years with a group of average players. Just look at the list of notable players Fergie had throughout his time here. 3 goalkeepers who will go down as all time greats, top class full backs including Evra who had a stint as arguably the best in the world. World class center backs constantly. World class midfield and wide players who stayed at the club for over a decade. One of the best players ever in ronaldo, various all time top scorers for their countries like Rooney and Van Persie, but also other greats like Van Nistelrooy, Cantona, Yorke, Cole, etc...

Fergie was a great manager, but he also always knew how to make terrific sides. He may have had some weak areas in some of our teams, but it always balanced out with having world class players like Van Persie to mask those weaknesses. Most of all, he knew how to get the best out of his players.

 

[marktan]

The contrast definitely resonates with me - I know we've been spoiled with football under SAF - the vast majority of clubs in the world will never have the level of success we had under him, and we're still a big club, it's just I think a fall from grace is harder to stomach than never having been at the top at all. It just makes watching this current United pretty un-enjoyable - which it shouldn't, because we're a great club and fans of clubs like Cardiff or Brighton would likely swap for our position in an instant.

 

[AbduRaheem]

I do miss it but it's a new era which hopefully returns back to how it was.

It took Fergie a few years before he got his team to the glory days. He was an impossible task to follow

 

[Class of 63]

Can I have a pint of whatever you’re on?

I'd imagine half a pint would be sufficient

 

[RedorDead21]

The goal posts have changed for the forseeable perhaps forever. We are no longer the richest club in the league. Other clubs can throw as much money as they want at the problem and have been. Historically, that always gave us the advantage over everyone only compounded season after season. It's possible we'll never be the dominant force we were under SAF and when you sit and think about it.....that hurts!

 

[Fortitude]

I dont like this trend of people claiming we had mediocre squads and Fergie just worked his magic for 25 years with a group of average players. Just look at the list of notable players Fergie had throughout his time here. 3 goalkeepers who will go down as all time greats, top class full backs including Evra who had a stint as arguably the best in the world. World class center backs constantly. World class midfield and wide players who stayed at the club for over a decade. One of the best players ever in Ronaldo, various all time top scorers for their countries like Rooney and Van Persie, but also other greats like Van Nistelrooy, Cantona, Yorke, Cole, etc...

Fergie was a great manager, but he also always knew how to make terrific sides. He may have had some weak areas in some of our teams, but it always balanced out with having world class players like Van Persie to mask those weaknesses. Most of all, he knew how to get the best out of his players.

what kind of bizarre tangent is this? At least it must be completely removed from what this thread is about as Fergie clearly had numerous monstrous teams, but this is about the actual opposite of those - that which cemented him as something out of this world; being able to win through regardless of the drop in quality and the thinning of the squad where we weren't buying much and certainly not spending what became the status quo of the time.

 

[stevoc]

The side was better because it was coached and motivated, but I don't think people would say on an individual level they were better - until now, i.e. if you asked that question at the end of last season after we came second, you'd get an entirely different answer to what you would now.

Are you sure mate?

RVP (team of the year) vs Lukaku
Nani vs Mata
Rafael vs Valencia/Young
Evra vs Darmian/Young
Ferdinand (team of the year) vs Smalling
Carrick (team of the year) vs Matic
Rooney vs Pogba

Both sides had DeGea, Pogba from the current team probably gets in the 2013 side but who else? Martial ahead of Young as a winger and thats about it.

Yes the 2013 side was well coached, but it's not like the current side has a bluffer in charge. Mourinho is still one of the worlds most successful managers. Won everywhere he's been, he's not as good as Ferguson granted but he's not exactly shit either.

 

[bosnian_red]

what kind of bizarre tangent is this? At least it must be completely removed from what this thread is about as Fergie clearly had numerous monstrous teams, but this is about the actual opposite of those - that which cemented him as something out of this world; being able to win through regardless of the drop in quality and the thinning of the squad where we weren't buying much and certainly not spending what became the status quo of the time.

"Winning titles with squads others would be lucky to get top 4 with". Downright disrespectful to literally any of our title winning teams. We didn't always have world class players in every position, but we always had enough of them to do what Fergie wanted. We didn't have shite squads and definitely didn't overachieve. Of course there was drops in quality, but it was always relative to the rest of the league and even in those times he had enough quality to keep us at the top. What he was so amazing at was keeping a really high level year on year even after constant success. Or knowing when to replace players to keep things fresh. Adapting styles. He always knew the type of players he needed though. 2012 we missed out on the title on goal difference, and bought Van Persie who was the best player in the league. Was that side anything special? No, but it had plenty of world class players in it regardless, notably Van Persie and Rooney.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

How was it overachieving?

We always had amazing players. People say what about Cleverley and Anderson but we still had Carrick, Fletch, Giggs and Scholes in midfield with world class defenders and always world class forwards.

We now have only 3 players that could get into other top sides with shit defense and a striker that only looks good playing one way.

And now there is a top 6 to deal with, not a top 4. And over half the league can spend decent money and keep decent players.

Our players aren't good enough and our manager has made recruiting mistakes and looks like he's not being fully backed.

 

[Buster15]

I think it would be easier to take if we didn't spend like a successful team and had less quality players. We've got the some of the ingredients and potential to still be right up there, and we're nowhere near.

I am sure that you realise that because of who we are, United often have to pay a Man utd premium to get a player.

I am not as concerned about how much money we have spent. Reason being that it comes out of income rather than the owners having to generate the funds.

 

[RedorDead21]

Are you sure mate?

RVP (team of the year) vs Lukaku
Nani vs Mata
Rafael vs Valencia/Young
Evra vs Darmian/Young
Ferdinand (team of the year) vs Smalling
Carrick (team of the year) vs Matic
Rooney vs Pogba

Both sides had DeGea, Pogba from the current team probably gets in the 2013 side but who else? Martial ahead of Young as a winger and thats about it.

Yes the 2013 side was well coached, but it's not like the current side has a bluffer in charge. Mourinho is still one of the worlds most successful managers. Won everywhere he's been, he's not as good as Ferguson granted but he's not exactly shit either.

Its bordering on a shit show in fairness for both the manager and the players......I love the guy but I don't think we are set up for success and I don't think he's great at managing if the tools for success ain't handed to him. By that I mean the players he wants to bring in...the players he wants to lose.....and I wouldn't give him control to do that now either....it's too far down the road. I've seen enough.