Were Luiz, Tierney, Pepe and Ceballos all Wenger players, as they all started that final?
Aston Villa appoint Unai Emery as manager
- Thread starter DavidDeSchmikes
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
He was always going to fail at Arsenal just like Moyes failed at Man. United. Replaced a legend who left an ageing and demotivated squad.
You give him Martinelli and Saka two years after they played compared to two months when he left and also Odegaard and Saliba instead of Ozil and Sokratis and those are the tools he needed to succeed.
Getting plenty of praise on this thread which is excellent but I feel the mainstream media is still lukewarm to him which I think is because so many slaughtered him at Arsenal and they can't quite bring themselves to admit they were a little OTT.
We finish top 4 and win the Europa conference and I really can't see who else in the league will have done a better job (only Iraola if he gets Bournemouth into 7th and europe which is still just about possible and would be an amazing achievement).
Now I don't actually mind Postacoglu and have enjoyed watching Spurs's style over the season but compare the fawning he gets in the media for months on end. That said I think we've benefited from being low key and under the radar for most of the season which have kept our results pretty consistent (despite 4-5 key injuries) but that will change being in the CL and the inevitable scrutiny.
Considering his experiences at PSG and Arsenal he's been really clever in the rehabilitation phase of his career. Picked Villareal who are outstanding at developing young players with a mix of core experience and he produced Europa league win and CL SFs in two seasons. And we were a very good fit to prove a point back in the premier league given we were 17th when he took over which was ridiculous with the squad we had.
He is about as far from a knee jerk decision maker as you can get so he'll be here another 2-3 years no problem.
You give him Martinelli and Saka two years after they played compared to two months when he left and also Odegaard and Saliba instead of Ozil and Sokratis and those are the tools he needed to succeed.
Getting plenty of praise on this thread which is excellent but I feel the mainstream media is still lukewarm to him which I think is because so many slaughtered him at Arsenal and they can't quite bring themselves to admit they were a little OTT.
We finish top 4 and win the Europa conference and I really can't see who else in the league will have done a better job (only Iraola if he gets Bournemouth into 7th and europe which is still just about possible and would be an amazing achievement).
Now I don't actually mind Postacoglu and have enjoyed watching Spurs's style over the season but compare the fawning he gets in the media for months on end. That said I think we've benefited from being low key and under the radar for most of the season which have kept our results pretty consistent (despite 4-5 key injuries) but that will change being in the CL and the inevitable scrutiny.
Considering his experiences at PSG and Arsenal he's been really clever in the rehabilitation phase of his career. Picked Villareal who are outstanding at developing young players with a mix of core experience and he produced Europa league win and CL SFs in two seasons. And we were a very good fit to prove a point back in the premier league given we were 17th when he took over which was ridiculous with the squad we had.
He is about as far from a knee jerk decision maker as you can get so he'll be here another 2-3 years no problem.
Never his fault for what happened in Arsenal. Glad that he got the praise he absolutely deserves.
Weren't Artetas players
Bit of bias but I think Dyche would also be in with a shout depending on how we do in those last 3 games. If we win both Luton and SU he would finish on 50 points.
Half the posters on Grand Old Team forum still want him sacked.
Yeah getting this Everton team safe with three games spare with -8 is an achievement for sure. Ideal manager for Everton at present with the off field situation.
We are a delusional fan base. When we go on a wee run of form or a dire run of form we flip from the best to worst team in the world. There are threads calling for Dyche to be sacked at the same time as threads pondering if we can get Europe next season, it's daft.Half the posters on Grand Old Team forum still want him sacked.
Yeah getting this Everton team safe with three games spare with -8 is an achievement for sure. Ideal manager for Everton at present with the off field situation.
I think there are a few managers who within their respective contexts have done an excellent job, including Emory, Dyche, Iraola and O'Neil.
Looking beyond people’s hunger for heroes and villains, Emery imo has done well several places over time. At Almeria (historical promotion, record 8th place) and Valencia (three consequtive 3rd places at a club in economical decline) he managed well in the league, at Sevilla he impressed more in the cups (three consecutive EL victories). PsG is par for course and Arsenal was poisoned chalice like current Utd at the time. Villarreal again impressed in European cups, and now Villaunreal are doing very well in the league. Nit many managers reach or surpass reasonable expectations in several clubs over several years.
I don't know the point you are making. Do managers only get credit for winning things with the players they've signed? Will Emery not get credit because Martinez, Konsa, McGinn, Watkins, Luiz, Digne, Bailey etc weren't Emery players?
No, but if you only win something with the players that you didn't sign and don't win anything with the completely rebuilt squad you have made, it probably doesn't look great?
Are you measuring Arsenals progress on an occasional FA Cup win? If we wanted that, we would have just kept Wenger.
Nope, but as said before, if you don't end up winning anything with Arteta and the squad he builds then it's hard to judge it as success and there is a danger of all that progession being for nothing as it will ultimately stall and regress again.
Ultimately it's a question of how you analyse success and progress. I think Arsenal have progressed without necessarily succeeding. Obviously winning the title this year will change that if you manage it.
Ah you're right.
Being 4-0 up and somehow still losing 6-1 in the away leg isn't a solid example of bottling. Also, Arteta being 2-1 down at Old Trafford and losing 3-2 is the same as Emery being 2-0 and still losing 3-2...
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I mean, several posters (both Arse fans and neutrals) have been patient enough to show you how silly your point is. He's an excellent manager, and your examples are frankly deluded.
No, but it doesn't bode well if you're spending over £600 million on this project, buying his preferred players, and still can't win any trophies. Name another major club in history that has spent that much and won no trophies for five years.
He's done an incredible job so it will be very interesting to see how you guys get on next season. The bigger issue is navigating the extra scrutiny, raising the bottom and higher level even more and wringing out every bit of talent once again from the current and new group of players (I'd presume from the summer). This won't be solely his job of course but the club will need to think really carefully about how to go about building the foundation for the new expectations/targets. I think if you guys achieve top 6 next year, that would be an amazing job and I don't mean that in any disrespectful way; I just think the Premier League juggernaut of competition is that chaotic and has that large of a pool of teams.
It's a bit lazy to compare but I think it's relevant to look at Leicester City's campaign in the CL and their league form and not try to stretch yourselves too thin, especially if you're going to be 'expected' to perhaps then make an effort in the domestic cups as well.
4 years, it’s been 4 years since we win a trophy. As @SilentWitness says, it depends on how you measure ‘success’. I didn’t want a team that has to fight to get 4th and wins the occasional FA Cup, I wanted a team that can challenge for titles over a decent period of time, as I think that’s more a measure of how good a team actually is.
Of course, I want them to do both, and will continue to adjust my thinking if we continue to miss out on trophies, but I’ll reserve judgement on that just now.
Ultimately, this is an Emery thread, and that would be my issue with Emery. I really like Emery, I’m very happy he’s doing well, I hope Villa go on to finish top 4 and win the Conference League. But I’ll remain of the opinion that I don’t think Emery is the manager that can get you to the near 90 point mark needed to win the Premier League. That’s not a massive slight on Emery, as I don’t think many managers are. I’ll be honest though, I didn’t think Arteta was either.
I think Emery would've made the 90 point mark if he had been given more time. Why the board decided that Arteta was more worthy than Emery, I don't know but we did come 5th narrowly and make the EL finals under Emery, at the same time promoting Saka, Martinelli and buying Saliba. You could say that the seeds for Arteta's success was laid during Emery's time.
Bit of a mental post considering Emery didn't have the breathing room finishing 8th, 8th and 5th.
You honestly think so? I think it’s very very difficult in this league while competing against Klopp and Guardiola, to get a team to near 90 points. No other manager has done it competing against these guys. Conte managed it before these guys established their teams. Your talking about Arsenal having a first half of the season last season of 47 points, and could have a 2nd half of this season even higher, and still not get that.
It’s not a mental post, it’s opinion, and it’s not just based off his time at Arsenal. Emery has proven he’s a very good manager, he’s a fantastic European manager, but I don’t think over the 10+ years of being a manager he’s proven to be an elite league manager to get you to compete against Klopp and Guardiola. If other clubs believed that he would, the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea, Utd and Spurs, as well as the Bayerns, Barcas and Madrids would be bashing the door down for him. Why are they not?!
Him or the Bournemouth Manager for manager of the season for me.
Hes not been given any chance at a club that can flex in the market and have quality all over the pitch to be fair. He was let go at Arsenal under far less patient outlooks than what was given to Arteta. He took over Villa when they were fighting relegation and can take them to 70+ points. I think it's quite clear he has it in him to hit 90points if he had Arsenal.
Also, if Emery left Villa tomorrow it's very likely the likes of Bayern and United would have their ears up.
I just think it’s being underestimated how difficult it is to get to 90 points while competing against an established Pep and Klopp team. The level of consistency needed to get to that level is really, really high. Like, no-one has managed it. No-one. Not Conte, not Mourinho, not Tuchel, not Poch.
Again, this isn’t meant as a slight at Emery, but the standards are just so high. Getting from late 70’s points to late 80’s points just seems a massive leap.
Sorry if it has been discussed here already but would resident Man Utd supporters take Emery?
I think there are probably 6/7 squads in the league better than Villa’s, Emery’s coaching has been brilliant but Bailey and or Diaby will need to kick on as proper match winners if they’re going to sustain next season
That's exactly what we were doing under Wenger, while winning FA Cups and spending much less money; what are you talking about?
I'm not advocating for Arteta's sacking either, and I think it's foolish for fans to want him gone after this season; there's clearly a good cohesion at Arsenal. However, if we don't start winning next season, he should leave. Even a League Cup would suffice. The history books never mention teams that finished second.
Yes, Emery has his weaknesses, but clearly, so does Arteta. Neither of them are generational elite coaches, anyway.
I wonder which Arsenal I have been supporting the last 20 years.
Very unlikely. The whole Villa upper structure right now is tailor-made for Emery. He is there to stay.
I find the narrative around Emery "not being able to make it at a big club" very contrived to be honest. PSG is a basket case of a club and was even more so when he was there, and what he did was pretty much par for the course compared to other managers. The fact no manager there has been entirely successful says more about the club than it does about it.
And he came into the Arsenal job when fans were still deluded with expectations (the one key thing Arteta has done has been to reduce expectations massively), with very poor structure and with very little chance of success. Not sure many managers would have done any better than him - Arteta certainly wouldn't have.
That's not to say he didn't have faults of his own in both those experiences, of course he did, but the odds were stacked against him. And extrapolating 2 very specific scenarios to a generalisation is a bit strange for me.
If he goes into a "big club" where things are generally settled, and still fails, then I'd agree that it's probably a trait of his as a manager. As of today, I'm really not convinced.
And he came into the Arsenal job when fans were still deluded with expectations (the one key thing Arteta has done has been to reduce expectations massively), with very poor structure and with very little chance of success. Not sure many managers would have done any better than him - Arteta certainly wouldn't have.
That's not to say he didn't have faults of his own in both those experiences, of course he did, but the odds were stacked against him. And extrapolating 2 very specific scenarios to a generalisation is a bit strange for me.
If he goes into a "big club" where things are generally settled, and still fails, then I'd agree that it's probably a trait of his as a manager. As of today, I'm really not convinced.
I always find it interesting about fans expectation. The revenue and wage expenditure information of each club are public and there are fans expect their supported club is entitled to win things in a regular basis.
Absolutely. Very good manager.
I said if he leaves, not that he would.
I don’t know if we are having cross wires here. I know Wenger was fighting to finish 4th, that’s why the fans eventually were losing patience, as we weren’t progressing, and not even the FA Cup wins came close to saving him.
The money thing doesn’t really matter because transfer fees and what you need to do to compete on this league has totally changed from 10 years ago, you can’t really compare like for like.
Would you rather he won a league cup and finished 4th or 5th, 20 points off the top?
I don’t know if this is directed at my opinions, but my thoughts about Emery aren’t anything to do with his PSG and Arsenal stints, as I agree those were exceptional circumstances. You say he performed par in those roles, I’d probably agree. However, I’d argue his full career at league level is been about performing par to well, without ever really excelling, this Villa season is probably the most impressive in terms of where they were and who they are up against. Where he has has excelled with these clubs is in Europe, and he’s a fantastic manager in European competition. It’s in these competitions he really has clubs punching above their weight. But that’s different from a 38 game league season.
I didnt say he couldn’t make it at a big club. My question specifically is can he really take a team outwith City, and compete properly against them and get a club to the 90 point mark because that is very, very difficult to do, and where you are looking at managers that really excel at it.
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I'd say we fought for the title on several occasions back then too. Perhaps not until the last day, but at least up until April, we were challenging for first place many times. Our issues were injuries or not having a big enough squad due to financial constraints from the stadium. Ultimately, finishing fifth with a cup is much better than finishing second empty-handed. I was not one of those fans who wanted Wenger out, and I don't really see how we've progressed much since 2016, when we finished second with 11-12 players continually injured. If anything, considering the money spent, we've regressed.
I was initially responding to the poster who claimed it was a stretch to suggest that Arteta has failed as much as Emery. Like I said earlier, they're both very good managers; however, neither is generational like Wenger, Pep, etc.
Since the invincibles in 2004, you’d say probably 2007/8 was the closest we came to what I consider a team that should have won a title. We ended up 3rd, but 4 points behind the winners.
Apart from that, maybe the year Leicester won it, and even then we were 10 points behind and only got 71 points.
I can’t think of any other season in the last 20 years until last season you could honestly say we were in a title challenge?
And I disagree with the bolded depending on the context behind it, but that one is just an opinion, and I respect yours.
Sorry to everyone else, didn’t mean to hijack the Emery thread with so much Arsenal talk.
I was debating this with someone else at work today funnily enough....no chance whatsoever Newcastle have a better squad than what we do (which is why I'm not as harsh on Howe this season as many).
A few injuries like they've had and it's back to guys like Lascelles, Krafth, Ritchie, Murphy who've done solid jobs when called upon but there were all there battling relegation under Benitez/Bruce.
Only area where they have a quality back up is Wilson for Isak whereas we still rely on Watkins playing pretty much every game.
Spurs don't have endless Balon D'or winners either. As usual Maddison was electric first half of the season, got injured in the winter and really hasn't been the same since. Thin at CB if they lose one of their main ones aswell.
Our squad depth is pretty underrated. Tielemans barely started a game up to December and we've had Lenglet warming the bench for 75% of the season, think he started about 25 games for Spurs last season. Morgan Rogers struggled in his first month but come on so much since so again Jacob Ramsey not missed too much from playing 10 games this season.
That's your opinion, for me; we challenged for the title at least 5other times since 2004. For instance, we went up to Wigan years ago and lost 3-2 fighting for the league.
Anyway this is Emery thread, so lets agree to disagree!
Now that 5th isn't good enough for a Champions League spot, it'll be interesting to see how Villa juggle the European matches with securing 4th place.
A Villa supporting friend of mine said that he'd take guaranteed 4th over winning the Europa Conference, but he expects them to do both.
A Villa supporting friend of mine said that he'd take guaranteed 4th over winning the Europa Conference, but he expects them to do both.
You go fir the league position first in my opinion. It's your path forward. Normally , I would be all for Villa securing it but at the moment I like that Spurs are still in it.