At what point are we going to say it's the manager?

[Alex99]

When things went south under Moyes, there was a large group of fans here who slammed and abused players - the group that had just won us the title mere months ago - and stood by the amazing manager because that is apparently fans obligation.

Manager is the only one we are supposed to support here. We owe him everything.

To be fair, most of the players have basically since admitted that they were hostile and unreceptive to Moyes from day one, some even suggesting they'd have been the same with any manager, simply because he wasn't Fergie.

However, he was clearly shite, out of his depth, and probably deserved a level of skepticism from the players, and it's daft to think he wasn't a primary factor in us having a shit season (the other being Woodward pissing about with his "urgent transfer business").

I don't remember the overwhelming view being of support the manager, blame the players, though.

Most fans were underwhelmed by his appointment, and realised quite quickly that he wasn't up to the job.

 

[Alex99]

This is same shit and same people as with OGS, it's never the coach/manager, it's always something else, because in their simpleton minds, every coach, no matter how obvisouly out of depth, will turn into SAF, given enough time and the right ownership structure.

Literally no one has argued this.

 

[Lee565]

The common denominator over the past few managers - the players.

The manager can only practice a style of play and instruct the players to enact it on the pitch. It’s blindingly clear that his authoritarian style does not go down well with the high paid spoilt brats like Rashford and Martial. They don’t try for him. It’s clear. His tough approach has been needed since SAF.

Suck it up fans for now and let EtH address it. If he does not remove the rotten apples and consistent poor performers like Dalot (not good enough), McTominay (ill disciplined position-wise), Rashford (not arsed), Sancho (no comment), Martial (lazy) and Bruno then it’s time for him to go. (Yes Bruno - I’m sick of his histrionics and good one/bad one performances).

Rinse and repeat manager-wise. Still, it keeps this forum busy……

The past few managers are ole, ragnick, and ten hag, one came from a Norwegian league, one from Russian league and the other from Dutch league which are all low ranked European leagues, I don't think you can point the finger at the players for mourinho either because mourinho has strong form for self imploding in his 3rd seasons at clubs

 

[tenpoless]

Yes it is the manger

 

[Bale Bale Bale]

Plenty of clubs would have hired LvG and Mourinho. ETH was a hot new manager on the scene. Moyes had a good PL reputation after punching with Everton for so many years. Good managers until they came to United, after which everyone starts to criticise their appointment with the benefit of hindsight.

Ole was a club legend. Many clubs have done the same.

The club is a mess. We’ve tried trusted PL experience, star names in management, club legends, hot managerial prospects. All have failed in the exact same way. Poor recruitment, club drama, abandonment by the players, and a situation arguably worse than what they started with.

I don’t really know where anyone gets the confidence to suggest that hiring yet another manager will somehow go differently.

The point isn't whether they were good hires at the time but what they've gone on to do since leaving Utd. One is retired, one never got another job, one is at a midtable PL side and one at a Europa level Serie A side. None have gone on to prove Utd wrong, it's not like you have an Emery on your CV. Sure there are other factors at play but none of the managers you've burned through would get a top job now if one were available.

 

[Coxy]

Just like it was with the managers before then eh?

just look at how Bournemouth played - they wanted it so much more. If that’s the managers fault then I’m not sure what our next one will do - as all of the previous ones haven’t managed that either.

 

[Overhaul FC]

Both are as hopeless as each other.

The players and the manager.

Only question is which one do you want rid of first? And who would you give one more season.

I'd rather we changed a few of the last shit squad players remaining with first team players and then if Ten Hag doesn't do well next season he goes too.

The club need Paul Mitchell in ASAP so he can be involved in January and Summer signings to make sure Ten Hag signs players that another manager could use in the future if the worst happens and Ten Hag gets the sack next season/summer.

 

[Dr Fink]

The team have tried for him, Martial tried for him he’s just not that good. This idea that the players don’t run for him etc isn’t true, his tactics are killing an average group of players.

The team have tried for him? Really? You mention Martial in your reply so I can’t take it seriously (sorry) when this guy’s style is based on being “languid”.

Too much player power . They are consistently getting the managers sacked. It’s a core set of players that have remained. Happy with mediocrity and a fat pay packet.

Rashford and Martial are two huge examples of this. ETH needs to set an example. Get rid in January.

 

[Dec9003]

The team have tried for him? Really? You mention Martial in your reply so I can’t take it seriously (sorry) when this guy’s style is based on being “languid”.

Too much player power . They are consistently getting the managers sacked. It’s a core set of players that have remained. Happy with mediocrity and a fat pay packet.

Rashford and Martial are two huge examples of this. ETH needs to set an example. Get rid in January.

It doesn’t matter if you take me seriously, Martial didn’t not try, he’s just a limited player. He wanted to drift left and leave space for McT to go into the striker position which will be tactical. The players aren’t very good which is an issue and Ten Hag + Murtough have added to that list with some of the worst offenders. The idea that if we just stop sacking managers it will work because we will move all the players on is absurd.
look at Martial as an example, he apparently didn’t run but stayed on after half time? Can you explain that to me please.

 

[Malone_Post]

Just like it was with the managers before then eh?

just look at how Bournemouth played - they wanted it so much more. If that’s the managers fault then I’m not sure what our next one will do - as all of the previous ones haven’t managed that either.

Well…yeah?

Has a single manager we’ve fired gone on to prove the club wrong? Gone on to achieve success that makes you think, we made a mistake letting them go? No. None of them have even come close.

Bournemouth didn’t win because they wanted it more, then won because they had a better tactical plan. Their manager has even come out and explained what their plan was. How they knew how to exploit our weaknesses. We’re so easy to play against. And that’s down to the managers absolutely horrendous tactics.

 

[Herman Toothrot]

Everyone loves blaming the players, but I cannot see what the managers plan is. We have less of an Identity than we had under Ole Gunnar "The PE teacher" Solskjær.

The only thing I know for sure, is that he wants a right footed centre back at right centre back and left footed centre back at left center back, and I'm pretty sure this doesn't make any fecking difference whatsoever.

 

[Dr Fink]

It doesn’t matter if you take me seriously, Martial didn’t not try, he’s just a limited player. He wanted to drift left and leave space for McT to go into the striker position which will be tactical. The players aren’t very good which is an issue and Ten Hag + Murtough have added to that list with some of the worst offenders. The idea that if we just stop sacking managers it will work because we will move all the players on is absurd.
look at Martial as an example, he apparently didn’t run but stayed on after half time? Can you explain that to me please.

Yep I can explain it. Hojlund was rested for the “big” make or break CL game, clearly . (Probably break or more apt is “fail”).

Why bother with Hojlund anyway? The two “wingers” couldn’t find him with a pass in the box, even if Bournemouth had left the pitch 5 mins early!

Still, he could have played Rashford as a striker (sorry, I can’t stop laughing after saying that).

Can you suggest any more strikers he has at his disposal?

 

[Ross Drennan]

I’m not sure what people think we have to lose by keeping ETH around whether he is the right man for it or not. We are all vastly aware of how much the club needs a cultural shakeup, why do the same thing we have done for the past 7-8 years an follow the same path? We aren’t going to win the league in the next 3-4 years whether the next manager is spot on an performs a miracle or not.
I’m not saying eth is the man for it, but I see only two things happening if he stays an both break the cycle;

It obviously outlines how the system isn’t working from higher an it’s changed from director level finally;
New investors / owners come in, evaluate with a new set of eyes an determine whether he is the man for the job or set a new path with him in charge to follow. This will hopefully include squeezing out the Madonna’s in the dressing room.

Another question to ask is who comes in? De zerbi will just be another failed prospect who they got wrong like eth, ancelotti will just be another past it manager like van gaal.
Something needs to change, it’s obvious, but

I don’t think this time it is rolling the dice on the manager.

 

[Baneofthegame]

My confidence in him is waning, but a lot of our players aren’t good enough either. I’d say it was a combination of both tbh, I still don’t understand the huge gulf we have in midfield all the time.

 

[Dec9003]

Yep I can explain it. Hojlund was rested for the “big” make or break CL game, clearly . (Probably break or more apt is “fail”).

Why bother with Hojlund anyway? The two “wingers” couldn’t find him with a pass in the box, even if Bournemouth had left the pitch 5 mins early!

Still, he could have played Rashford as a striker (sorry, I can’t stop laughing after saying that).

Can you suggest any more strikers he has at his disposal?

If our wingers can’t find our striker (one ten hag bought for 80 odd million) then maybe we should have put Bruno as a false 9 or something? If we can’t play Hojlund (which isn’t true because he came on anyway?) maybe if we were so worried about playing Martial, we should have bought two cheaper forwards than a kid that hasn’t scored in the league yet despite another big investment. I can’t take anyone seriously that defends Ten Hag’s team selection or tactics, it’s laughable at this point.

 

[lex talionis]

Most everyone here also blames the Glazers and the players, but the manager has made his contribution to the mess we’re in. A few days ago the capitulation to Newcastle was our new low but Bournemouth made a mockery of United in our house, literally but not literally taking a crap at the circle for all the world to see what has become of the club that Sir Matt and Sir Alex built.

Meanwhile, the Glazers sit in Florida and allow this rot to fester while they cash in.

 

[sect2k]

Literally no one has argued this.

Guess we are reading a different forum then.

 

[2 man midfield]

This is same shit and same people as with OGS, it's never the coach/manager, it's always something else, because in their simpleton minds, every coach, no matter how obvisouly out of depth, will turn into SAF, given enough time and the right ownership structure.

Any posts to back this up?

 

[Alex99]

Guess we are reading a different forum then.

There's a lot of people on here that share your aptitude for arguing against the imaginary forum posts they're seeing.

 

[Salus Populi Suprema Lex]

If we keep losing so many games, then that point will quickly arrive and ETH will be sacked, rightly or wrongly. No United manager can survive losing half his matches.

 

[Dr Fink]

If our wingers can’t find our striker (one ten hag bought for 80 odd million) then maybe we should have put Bruno as a false 9 or something? If we can’t play Hojlund (which isn’t true because he came on anyway?) maybe if we were so worried about playing Martial, we should have bought two cheaper forwards than a kid that hasn’t scored in the league yet despite another big investment. I can’t take anyone seriously that defends Ten Hag’s team selection or tactics, it’s laughable at this point.

Yes, Hojlund was clearly rested for Tuesday as he did not start, but did come on. I never said he didn’t come on, read my post. Martial is the only other senior striker. Rashford is not a striker and currently doesn’t look like any type of player. To me anyway.

Good points raised up until you mention Bruno who has been a liability most of the season. Simply awful in attitude, histrionics, complaining and a really poor captain. Erik appointed him, so the blame lies with Erlk

I love the club and it really pains me coming out of OT after each home game, after having witnessed such appalling efforts by the players, never mind the “brand” of football.

Changing the manager won’t fix this in my opinion. Sorry.

We both want the best for Utd but see it differently. We’ll agree to disagree. It was nice debating this.

 

[Wazzaduke33]

Iraola has had about 4 months with that Bournemouth squad and after a tough start they have an identity, well drilled, motivated and clear in their intentions. Why do we thing we are not in that boat yet ? Joel Glazer ? The leaking roof ? The takeover ? The dinner ladies at Carrington ?

It’s because ETH isn’t good enough, the players he’s brought in are average at best, he can’t motivate or coach the ones he inherited, he’s a fake tough guy dinosaur, it’s that simple

 

[Keownisacnut]

Most everyone here also blames the Glazers and the players, but the manager has made his contribution to the mess we’re in. A few days ago the capitulation to Newcastle was our new low but Bournemouth made a mockery of United in our house, literally but not literally taking a crap at the circle for all the world to see what has become of the club that Sir Matt and Sir Alex built.

Meanwhile, the Glazers sit in Florida and allow this rot to fester while they cash in.

I couldn’t agree more. The constant throughout our decade of omnishambles is the ownership, I don’t believe Ten Hag will fix this, I think half the squad needs to leave, but even if that happens I have no confidence anything will really change until we get the financial parasites out of our club.
I really hope Dave Brailsford can work his magic on our club like he did on British cycling and Jim R brings in good football people to run the club day to day, but we should not relent in our efforts to remove the Glazers entirely. They are an absolute shower of cnuts.

 

[Jezpeza]

It’s the manager and players.

I think the effects of a manager can be + or - 20%. Its widely known the best way to improve is recruitment.

looking at our squad, the only players who have proved themselves good enough consistently or are prospects or can be part of a 4 or 5 year rebuilding process here are Bayindir, Martinez, Mainoo, Mejbri, Bruno, diallo, pellestri, garnacho and Hojlund.

maybe controversial but in my opinion the rest are all average, shite, crocked, over the hill or too inconsistent.

We need something drastic from INEOS - planning ahead and bringing in 6 starters in the summer and somehow shifting large quantities of dross. The rate we sign players at and the amount of dross we still buy (Antony, Mount, Onana) means any manager we bring in will need to be here 5 years just to assemble a first 11 of players fit to wear the shirt.

 

[desirere]

No matter how bad things go, it's not the manager. I'm sorry but this is just Groundhog Day, if you people forgot please refresh for damn memory a bit. This is the same feking rollercoaster ride we get with each manager after Sir Alex (apart from Moyes, he never even deserved the job in the first place).

Our players, apart from a very few can all go feck off, they haven't won nearly enough to command any respect/love from our fans. At any other club that's comparable in stature to us every single one of that pathetic bunch would have already been abused if not stoned to death. I know exactly why this is, we're so shit, for so long now, that we've completely lost a sense of standards, we're fine with flashes, small purple patches, mickey mouse trophies, etc.

I hope the club, at least, sticks to Erik and gives him the full (100%) backing, where he can pick and choose who stays in the club from next season on. If he believes he needs to bin 20/24 players, I will be 100% behind him, as I don't see much more of them deserving anything. If that means playing the next 2 seasons just to get a team together, so be it, we're not winning anything anyway. I don't care about being top 4, Champions League, FA Cup, and League Cup. We can sacrifice everything for the sake of building a team capable of competing for the league title and CL. With the arrival of the new board of Sir Jim, I have full confidence we will have the correct people replacing the players Ten Hag deems not good enough.

 

[The Cat]

No matter how bad things go, it's not the manager. I'm sorry but this is just Groundhog Day, if you people forgot please refresh for damn memory a bit. This is the same feking rollercoaster ride we get with each manager after Sir Alex (apart from Moyes, he never even deserved the job in the first place).

Our players, apart from a very few can all go feck off, they haven't won nearly enough to command any respect/love from our fans. At any other club that's comparable in stature to us every single one of that pathetic bunch would have already been abused if not stoned to death. I know exactly why this is, we're so shit, for so long now, that we've completely lost a sense of standards, we're fine with flashes, small purple patches, mickey mouse trophies, etc.

I hope the club, at least, sticks to Erik and gives him the full (100%) backing, where he can pick and choose who stays in the club from next season on. If he believes he needs to bin 20/24 players, I will be 100% behind him, as I don't see much more of them deserving anything. If that means playing the next 2 seasons just to get a team together, so be it, we're not winning anything anyway. I don't care about being top 4, Champions League, FA Cup, and League Cup. We can sacrifice everything for the sake of building a team capable of competing for the league title and CL. With the arrival of the new board of Sir Jim, I have full confidence we will have the correct people replacing the players Ten Hag deems not good enough.

You mean most of the players he's brought in?

 

[sect2k]

Any posts to back this up?

Read just about any thread about ETH (or OGS previously) and there should be plenty.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

I was busy yesterday so the result has only really just sunk in. That’s a pretty tough one to look on the bright side of

 

[TheGame]

Urm there's like several threads where people say its the manager. I'm confused why we need another one.

 

[Zen86]

The point isn't whether they were good hires at the time but what they've gone on to do since leaving Utd. One is retired, one never got another job, one is at a midtable PL side and one at a Europa level Serie A side. None have gone on to prove Utd wrong, it's not like you have an Emery on your CV. Sure there are other factors at play but none of the managers you've burned through would get a top job now if one were available.

It doesn’t help that their reputations are in tatters by the time they leave United. It’s a poison chalice at this point and I can’t see many top or up-and-coming managers fancying the post if ETH goes.

 

[sect2k]

There's a lot of people on here that share your aptitude for arguing against the imaginary forum posts they're seeing.

Sure, I'm imagining things, or maybe you're suffering from selective perception, only seeing the things you want to see, who knows. Also maybe look up the definition of hyperbole, not everything is meant to be taken literally.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

The problem is many of these players downed tools for Ole and didn't even pick up their tools at all for Rangnick.

We should probably get rid of Ten Hag now, but the same thing is just going to happen with whoever is hired next.

 

[Zen86]

I'm not getting into a real deep-dive about the abilities of each of these managers, it's not really the point of the argument - although I dispute people only criticised these appointments in hindsight. About 50% of this forum were against Jose and OGS before they were hired.

I return to my point, which is that we've had 5 managers in a decade (which isn't actually that many) and they were hired by the same team of clowns that have basically gotten every major decision wrong during that period.

So when people suggest it's hopeless, that we've tried everything, that nothing works, that the players must be to blame, that the club is cursed or rotten or whatever...I dispute that.

We haven't gotten it right, up until now, with our managerial appointments, but that doesn't mean we should give up and stop trying.

Nobody is saying it’s hopeless. But the point is nicely summarised by yourself in the bolded.

The same bunch of “clowns” hiring managers are the same bunch of clowns making decisions in every other aspect of the club. They can’t even just sell the club without a big, drawn out fiasco.

 

[zenith]

He did well last season and I would gave thought that is bought him at least a seasons worth of credit. At some point we have to show that the club backs the manager, else is gonna be the same shit over and over again.

We need critical players like Martinez and Casemiro back and ETH to see the obvious that is wrong with his tactics but no, I do not agree that a managerial merry go round is the answer

 

[Alex99]

Sure, I'm imagining things, or maybe you're suffering from selective perception, only seeing the things you want to see, who knows. Also maybe look up the definition of hyperbole, not everything is meant to be taken literally.

So it's simultaneously exactly what you've observed but also just you being hyperbolic?

Gotcha.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Never. Its always the players, and Glazer.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

There was a thread at the start of the season about how you expect this season to go. Loads of people saying challenging and so on. Not sure why they felt so confident as I figured top 8 would probably be a bit of a dog fight.

Our transfer window wasn’t something that was going to take us on leaps and bounds, if anything we came out of it weaker but we had bought for a more solid stable future.

All these things are investments in our future and some players still need to go and more brought in. He keeps saying it’s a process and it’s going to take time. If next season we invest again and it’s still like this then yeah it’s time to start thinking about getting rid.

However right now we are in a cycle that is allowing players to get away with being rubbish and not doing their jobs becuase every new manager gives them yet another chance. Then that manager won’t fancy someone and so on. Endless cycle and we need to break that. Until we have a DOF stick with ETH because all though it’s part of your job to get players putting in an effort and doing the rights things on the pitch, some tools just aren’t fit for purpose and need to be replaced.

 

[ForeverRed1]

When issues beyond the manager are sorted. Who in world football sorts this rotten club out? It’s so much deeper rooted than just chucking a manager in and hoping for the best. You’re essentially throwing someone into a lions den and watching them eventually fail. This club has been decaying over the last 15 years.. and just like decay it gets worse over time, so where the club is at now is the worst it’s ever been. He’s hanging on by a thread with the weight of the world on his shoulders. Who’s helping him soak up this pressure? I can’t imagine how stressed out he must feel after taking this job. He spoke about people advising him against it.. maybe he’s understand why now, he was doomed to fail. This is why top top players don’t want to come here in their prime anymore, it’s a graveyard shift. It really is. That’s why we now get past it players and loans constantly. Players don’t want to play here.

it doesn’t matter what manager you put in this club, it’s too big a job for one man. It’s too big an ask. You need the best of the best around you. Making decisions for you almost. You want that signing? Nope not having him. What about this guy? .. no manager should be given sole decisions on signings, your asking for trouble and what big club works like this? You think pep cherry picked this Man City squad? Did he feck. He’s got top top top support from the top all the way down. Just like he had at Barca and Bayern. His recruitment team are creme de la creme.

people compare other managers, that’s fair.. however.. their not managing a club of this stature, not many are. The expectation, the size, the 10 years of collecting problems, it’s just insane and it’s never ending. I honestly don’t know how he’s still standing dealing with this job. Most would have keeled over by now.

I’m not saying he’s the man for the job.. I just can’t help but feel he deserves a shot when he has the actual backing and support of top class recruitment/DOF/CEO/ambitious owner coming in with vision. No manager should have to solely be made responsible for the never ended pile of shite that is Manchester United at the moment. What he’s had to deal with would be ALOT for anyone.

I also want to see more than half these players feck off out the club before him. Never disliked a bunch as much I don’t think.

 

[Scandi Red]

How can anyone who has followed United for the last 10 years claim that our struggles are almost exclusively the fault of the manager? Of course the manager must take a good part of the blame, but he's just one piece of the puzzle.

 

[AndySmith1990]

In reality I think it's a bit of everything. The manager is a big problem, but the problem should be rectified by the sporting director, and if the sporting director isn't fit for purpose, the CEO should see to that problem. If the CEO isn't cutting it, the owners should step in and steer the ship back on course. What we have is a chain of command at the club that isn't fit for purpose. Incompetent people are left unchecked to be incompetent. Managers eventually bite the bullet when fan pressure forces their hand, but otherwise no one us making proactive decisions for the good of the club.

As a result we have managers given freedom to build terrible teams, and those terrible teams are rewarded by incompetent people at the club trying to protect book value, so that they can appease greedy owners who want to milk every penny they can out of the club. It's a vicious cycle.

There are many people to blame for our constant failings. It all starts at the top and we all know the root cause. But that doesn't mean many others beneath them aren't also bad at their job. Ferguson was successful despite of the owners, and with the right people there's no reason we couldn't be again. The problem is we're relying on luck to eventually stubble across those right people. Or more likely, we're relying on Ratcliffe coming in making wholesale changes.

Anyway, regardless of owners and several shit, lazy players, Ten Hag certainly isn't the right person. Ignoring everything else around the club, he's fundamentally making a mess of his primary role, which is to manage the team to a standard befitting a club of Uniteds stature