in over his head , but dont let for one minute think these parasites called the glazers arent responsible - any other club the place would have been burned to the ground by now , instead we have merchandise flying out the door
At what point are we going to say it's the manager?
- Thread starter The Oracle
- Start date
It's got feck all to do with Ferguson's story.
We've not given a single manager post-Fergie even three full seasons, and we're less than one and a half seasons into Ten Hag's tenure and he looks like very much like he'll be getting the boot this month.
Moyes didn't manage one full season. van Gaal got two, but was booted for failing to qualify for the Champions League, despite having won us the FA Cup and qualified for the CL in his first season. Mourinho and Solskjaer both got two, and were both sacked less than halfway through their third, despite having won the EFL Cup and Europa League, then managing a 2nd place finish, and managing the first successive top four finishes (3rd and 2nd) since Ferguson retired, respectively. Ten Hag finished 3rd and won us the EFL Cup, and despite how shite we've been this season, has still managed to win enough points to have us sat 6th, still within touching distance of the CL places.
You could probably count on the fingers of one hand the number of fans that think any of the previous managers should have been given more time, and you'd struggle to find many with any strong opposition to the suggestion that Ten Hag gets sacked now.
The issue with the fans isn't there there's loads of them thinking every manager could be Ferguson with enough time, it's that there's loads of completely deluded fans who hold the idea that, 10 years on from Ferguson retiring, United are in a remotely comparable state to clubs like Real Madrid.
One has enjoyed two EFL Cup wins, an FA Cup win, and a Europa League win in that time, with their best league finishes being two in a distant 2nd and two in 3rd, and the best they've managed in the Champions League being two appearances in the quarter final. The other has won the Champions League five times, three league titles, and two Copa del Reys in the same time frame.
Of course Real Madrid would sack a manager when they're sat in 6th, more than a few games into the season, because they're a far better team than Manchester United, and have only been in that situation once in the past 10 years. United have basically been in this position in 8 or 9 of the last 10 seasons. Sometimes it's got better, sometimes it hasn't.
However, if we shit ourselves and hit the reset button every time we have a rough patch, we're going to continue shitting ourselves and hitting that reset button again and again over the next 10 years, just as we have over the past 10. There's a massive middle-ground between giving someone a bit of time to get over a hump, and giving them six years just because. No one argues for the latter.
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Multiple times over by now, surely
the truth is that while a few managers have had a succesful 1st season post fergie , the follow up season has been pathetic and at a club like united , its unaccetable ...the 2nd season should always be about implementing your style further , adding to the squad with solid signings , clearly outlining a style of playing etc youi dont have to win but you need to put the blocks in to create a title run of some sort ...in many cases that 2nd season has been utter garbage and a real regression which is why fans start asking questions
eth after a decent 1st season has followed it with what can only be descibed as a disaster...his signings (mason mount wtf was that , onana shocking , holjuund to replace cr7) ,his player management (did he even think the ramifications of sancho with the other pommy boys in the squad) and lack of any type of playing style (from press to counter in 1 season) has fans righfully asking wtf is going on ....in a year where we were supposed to continue to build many are wondering wtf hell is going on
I said this midway through last season after we were linked to almost exclusively ex Ten Hag or Dutch league players and spent a record fee on Antony just to commend his work rate
For me when I look at our performances last year we had a triangle of Casemiro, Martinez and Varane that enabled us to play higher up the pitch and play out from the back. Maguire is getting plaudits and deservedly so but he’s still a huge problem and Lindelof is still a meek defender and we still miss the Casemiro of last season. In addition Rashford was flying.
In short we’ve still got multiple players that cause problems and a mismatch of a squad.
In short we’ve still got multiple players that cause problems and a mismatch of a squad.
Yes, because they're a team that has enjoyed nothing but consistent levels of immense success. Our current situation would be an unprecedented disaster for them.
For us, our current situation is the exact same situation we've been in far more often than not over the past decade.
You are precisely one of the deluded fans I reference in that post.
Progress is not linear and uninterrupted by bumps in the road.
The fact that you think Sancho and Ronaldo are somehow bad decisions, and that you apparently watch us and think we're playing counter-attacking football says everything.
so we are not playing counter attacking football are we , show me mr tiki taka where that is wrong , having arguments with players who then prove you got things horribly wrong and yet you somehow call this progress and a bump in the road - hahahahaha you sir are the reason mediocrity is so widely accepted
well done mark goldbridge , keep it going - let me guess youre glazers in too
Ronaldo was toxic and way past his best, Sancho has been shite since he arrived and is a petulant child that needs binning.
We quite literally are not playing counter-attacking football.
Go back to twitter.
cr7 was way past his best , so replacing him a guy who cant score in the epl is a masterstroke
stop it mate , if you think we arent playing counter attack you have no idea
lets see at anfield if we go at them
I imagine you'd fail to fill the back of a postage stamp with everything you actually know about football.cr7 was way past his best , so replacing him a guy who cant score in the epl is a masterstroke
stop it mate , if you think we arent playing counter attack you have no idea
lets see at anfield if we go at them
guarantee i know more than you
merry xmas buddyWe're not playing counter attacking football, or any other deliberate style of football for that matter.cr7 was way past his best , so replacing him a guy who cant score in the epl is a masterstroke
stop it mate , if you think we arent playing counter attack you have no idea
lets see at anfield if we go at them
Fair enough for Ronaldo and Sancho but he clearly has also lost Varane and Casemiro, two of the most decorated players in the game.
When the same problems remain consistent through numerous managers, coaching set ups and squads then what the hell actually is the problem (owners aside, to simplistic to blame them)?
What's going to change with a new manager? What changed with the last change? What about the change before that? What's different now compared to United 6 years ago, when basically none of the current squad were here?
We keep changing things yet nothing changes.
What's going to change with a new manager? What changed with the last change? What about the change before that? What's different now compared to United 6 years ago, when basically none of the current squad were here?
We keep changing things yet nothing changes.
This is the problem, it's the overlap. New manager inherits the underperforming players he might get something out of them for a while, might replace some of them with his own signings, things start going wrong manager gets sacked players remain. It's like painting over mould, looks ok for a bit but you know it's there and it's going to return. We're better of letting things carry on until we can go all in for a full rebuild, new players, new DOF, scouts, coaches, new manager.
Are you really saying people don't bring up sir Alex literally anytime someone says the current manager needs to go?
That's poor logic.
There is a downward trajectory that need to be addressed in all of the sacking. There were temporary upturn at first with all new permanent managers. No long term solution nor great success doesn't mean it was not the right decision to sack Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole and potentially ETH with this season form.
Glazers ownership, new structure is a different problem that can be tackle separately. Unless the manager is proven elite, or elite potential, then there is no point in afraid of losing out for short term gain. Anyone can bet their houses that ETH is going to be an elite manager worth keeping around despite the mess around him?
1. Having some of the worst individual stats of any United manager.
2. Bringing in Antony, Hojlund, Mount and Onana for a tad over £250m...and arguably not making the team any better.
3. Binning off De Gea in the manner that he did.
4. Shipping out Alvaro Fernandez to bring in Reguilon.
5. I've made my point about Sancho but the situation still sucks.
6. Sticking with average players like Maguire, Martial, McTominay, Eriksen etc.
7. Bringing in Jonny Evans (and Weghorst before that).
8. Consigning Varane to the scrapheap.
9. Showing signs of favouritism and not being consistent in his man management.
Let's forget that this is Ten Hag or United for a moment. How many managers would be getting stick with that CV. To answer the thread question...no-one can say that he is without blame for sure. Whether he is at the sacking stage is another question for the other threads on here but the guy needs to fix up.
2. Bringing in Antony, Hojlund, Mount and Onana for a tad over £250m...and arguably not making the team any better.
3. Binning off De Gea in the manner that he did.
4. Shipping out Alvaro Fernandez to bring in Reguilon.
5. I've made my point about Sancho but the situation still sucks.
6. Sticking with average players like Maguire, Martial, McTominay, Eriksen etc.
7. Bringing in Jonny Evans (and Weghorst before that).
8. Consigning Varane to the scrapheap.
9. Showing signs of favouritism and not being consistent in his man management.
Let's forget that this is Ten Hag or United for a moment. How many managers would be getting stick with that CV. To answer the thread question...no-one can say that he is without blame for sure. Whether he is at the sacking stage is another question for the other threads on here but the guy needs to fix up.
I'm not suggesting we change nothing but there is obviously something very wrong when we keep seeing the same things play out over and over again.
Would an elite manager succeed? I doubt it. But then who are the elite managers United could turn to? They'd probably leave United with their reputation in tatters. And by leave I mean get sacked at some point in season 2 or 3.
1. He also has some of the best stats in his favour.
2. True, but hasn't this been the case with every manager post SAF?
3. Not ideal but he's been past up by every team in club football currently.
4. Reguilon has been fine, absolutely nothing points to Alvaro being any better.
5. Sancho situation does suck but he was shite prior to EtH coming in.
6. He was open to Maguire and Martial going, he's not being helped by the people above him who's job it is to sell players.
7. Partially his fault as we've spent awfully.
8. Has he played any better than an average Maguire?
9. This is valid and something that frustrates me too.
I think people on this forum need to stop pining for these get rich quick schemes. We aren't getting out of this mess until we get new sporting direction above the manager. We still have this weird pseudo-director of football position with a guy that was working for Everton prior to United. Im not saying Ratcliffe will have all the answers but isn't it obvious that his idea of improving United is by gaining sporting control, removing the CEO and installing a director of football. Our club is run by complete bluffers with enough money to outspend 3/4 of the league. Nothing will change in this cycle of mediocrity until something is done upstairs. Also, its hilarious that our current manager has gone further in the Champions league than we have post SAF, most not be elite.
There's a reason Madrid were willing to sell them and a reason they were happy to come to us.
On the decline and getting paid handsomely while it happens.
We were only ever going to get one or two good seasons out of each before things turned, just as it has with every other "decorated" veteran we've signed in the past decade.
He's brought up far more frequently by those who want to sack a manager the minute we have a bad result than by anyone else.
If past it Mourinho and Ole could do relative well as well as new to the league ETH had a very good first season, an elite manager would highly likely do well and hang around long enough to change the squad to his liking. ETH is empowered more without Woodward around. He had power to chop Ronaldo, previously Maguire, Sancho, Varane, vetoing DDG contract extension... That power can't be afforded for a manager who himself is failing.
Moyes, LVG, Mourinho, Ole, Rangnick as exaggerated as the severity of sacking from Man United supporter POV, their reputation were not in the tatters. Moyes still got midtable PL jobs all along. He even got a chance with a CL team with Real Soceidad. LVG came out of retirement to coach Netherland NTl the same job before he went to us. Mourinho got a free shot at Tottenham who was few months ago made it to CL final with Poch. As much as he failed in Tottenham, his successor hasn't fared much better there, while he found his new level at Roma. Ole being Ole. He's still a player legend. He's never meant to be great manager before his interim period and over 2 seasons as manager for us. He still made a name got offer from Saudi just like many recognizable managers. Even Rangnick got Austria to directly qualified for EURO.
ETH himself didn't fear taking this job, why would a confident manager would fear to take the job? You think only elite managers can do better job than current ETH when previous evidence showed that even Ole could improve on the worst of Mourinho (whose best form is still the best among post SAF managers)? Emery, Arteta who are not elite; not doing a better job? Eddie Howe, De Zerbi not having their team playing better style of football while being there and about with our current level? Ancelotti wouldn't do better in short term? Hansi Flick wouldn't worth the shot given his better achievement?
Your logic revolves around the notion that ETH is the next best thing only behind the elite TWO. Completely oblivious to the fact that clubs with a good structure like City and Liverpool still churned through managers for short term gains before they arrived with a great managers. They didn't and couldn't build the perfect squad ready for Pep nor Klopp. Reasons? You can't recruit a whole functional harmonious squad when the managers were not up to task. Liverpool didn't have that many great Klopp's players in the squad until he actually came. Pep could make use more from a better City squad, yet he still ended up replacing many after the first couple seasons.
Have I missed something, when did casimero and ten hag fall out, I assumed he is just injured?
If you think about it we've done far more than just stick with McTominay.
Whatever our offensive plan was to begin the season it's turned into a situation where we sacrifice any semblance of midfield stability so that Scotty can get into the box, sometimes getting in the strikers way, while Bruno is forced to run all over the pitch like a headless chicken.
It's shambolic and it's on purpose.
Make that make sense.
Agree with all of this but you’re banging your head against the wall trying to emphasise these points to a portion on here.
That's true but they're the other extreme. We don't have a duopoly in English football and executives accountable to fans.
They were willing to sell Varane because he wouldn’t sign a new contract. They also have a plethora of midfield talent. I can’t recall them falling out with others or being anything other than professional.
Injured half time against Newcastle iirc.
When there is new ownership and structure in place and they start getting rid of the over payed bang average players.
More reading between the lines after Ten Hag saying he brought him off at half time to play more football followed by rumours of him being sold. Would it be that big a surprise?
Excellent come-back post. I respect it. My point about Fernandez was that although I like Reguilon, Fernandez was good enough to have a chance and just another example of the favouritism and inconsistency that ten Hag is guilty of. I'm also not referring to De Gea staying on but just the manner in which he was jettisoned out of the club for no reason. I would promote more youngsters in place of Maguire, Martial etc. (they can't be any worse), and I'm sorry but you don't bench Varane behind Maguire, Lindelof, Evans and an out-of-position Shaw, you just don't. And despite all of ten Hag's positive achievements, when you look at the overall picture, you just see the same sequence of events unfolding as with all the other managers post SAF.
The question is at what point do say it's the manager? You can't deny that he is scoring some massive own goals at the moment. And who else is going to take responsibility for team performances?
Mods job to sort that out. One Ten Hag related thread is more than enough on here.
Given the circumstances (club in mess, Glazer, sports director etc) don’t think ETH is a bad manager, but he just isn’t a very good one (400m+ spent on bad signings, 1.5+ years spent with his squad with no progression made).
Most people have binary thinking. It's either the manager or it's not the manager. It is as if they are incapable of understanding that it can be the manager, the players, the DOF and our footballing structure.
There is a reason that clubs like Brighton and Dortmund change managers all the time, and yet they stay competitive.
Because the culture comes from the top.
Now tell me, what culture have the Glazers instilled in this club?
There is a reason that clubs like Brighton and Dortmund change managers all the time, and yet they stay competitive.
Because the culture comes from the top.
Now tell me, what culture have the Glazers instilled in this club?
Not that there have been other alternatives. But if we given those managers 3 years each regardless, our rebuild process may extend even longer.
I can't argue with you there because thats all valid. I wasn't trying to single out your post, just ended up using it as a jumping point for my thoughts. He's obviously not absolved of criticism, I just don't see the value in binning him off yet until he's given the support he needs.
Hence why I highlighted how no one would argue to give them more time. Fans simply aren't arguing to blindly give managers six or seven years in the vain hope they'll turn into Ferguson, which is what is argued whenever anyone dares suggest we have a little more patience, or that the manager isn't solely to blame.
The reality is that Ten Hag is the first time we've attempted to hire a remotely "modern" manager (or however you want to describe him) and any replacement should be of a similar profile.
I do think that there's a reasonable argument for having a full reset again when the INEOS deal finally happens, but we are going to have to be patient with whoever comes in as there's a lot of work to do. We also need to understand that finishing in the top four one year isn't a guarantee that we'll manage it again the year after.
It’s the owners (first and foremost), it’s those in charge of operations and signings, it’s the players and it’s the manager.
There’s no silver bullet to fix this and changing just one of these things won’t result in a change in fortune. I hope that SJR coming in and putting in a professional experienced team to run the day to day will lead to a clear strategy that will weed out the players who shouldn’t be here and bring in sensible signings.
Obviously high on the agenda is the suitability of the manager. But I’d think that a top down review of the club is needed to fully understand what’s going so wrong before pulling the trigger. I did vote sack ETH but that’s an emotional fan reaction and I’d hope that SJR would make decisions based on evidence on and off the pitch.
There’s no silver bullet to fix this and changing just one of these things won’t result in a change in fortune. I hope that SJR coming in and putting in a professional experienced team to run the day to day will lead to a clear strategy that will weed out the players who shouldn’t be here and bring in sensible signings.
Obviously high on the agenda is the suitability of the manager. But I’d think that a top down review of the club is needed to fully understand what’s going so wrong before pulling the trigger. I did vote sack ETH but that’s an emotional fan reaction and I’d hope that SJR would make decisions based on evidence on and off the pitch.
If it is the same sequence of events unfolding once again, what's the chance that only changing the manager will solve it this time? The leadership above the manager needs to change first, which looks very likely to happen in the next few weeks, and then it should be up to them to decide if we need a new manager or not. Do we really want Murtough and the interim CEO to pick the next manager?