Which plenty of teams are those? We're only talking about those at the top, where Manchester United's aspirations lie.
Like I said, it doesn't actually happen anymore; feel free to show me an elite club who have done so.
Aurelien Tchouameni / Signs for Madrid
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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Like I said, it doesn't actually happen anymore; feel free to show me an elite club who have done so.
Yeah I agree that very good managers can improve players, of course; especially by finding the best way of playing to complement the players qualities. So for example he played with Lewa as the 9 but changed things at Pool to a false 9 to make use of the great ability to score of the wide attackers.
About TAA, that's interesting. He is actually targeted quite a bit. It works for them for 2 reasons IMO. Superhero level central defenders that are extremely rare to find (and he paid a fortune for it) and, sacrificing midfield creativity for defensive work. So Klopp adapted very well to balance the team around the qualities of the players.
My point is that for the most part, the qualities that fit a managers system must be there. You can't turn Smalling in to a ball playing defender or McTom in to a playmaker, etc. What tends to happen is that there are players that excel at certain things and the manager brings that to light by setting the team up to make best use of those qualities.
Milan
An outlier in a league nobody talks about anymore. Is that the only example?
There have been so many teams who have done their rebuilds in the last 3-7 years, if Milan are the only one with a slow burn, they are an extreme exception to the rule.
He could literally go to Newcastle for the money and win young player of the year and you’d be on here saying why did we not just spend the money.
The hunger has nothing to do with just money. We built a poor environment which matched an Old Spurs. This is why we have a bunch of bottlers.
They already are replicating it. Luis Diaz was on the verge of signing for Everton a year ago, and now he’s come in and looks amazing. Jota was considered a pretty decent player at Wolves and he’s now something of a goal machine. Everyone worried about Konate’s injuries at Leipzig, they took the plunge and he’s great every time he plays.
I actually did and also posted link as well in my earlier conversation with some other poster , Bonuses actually made it around 10% higher than United wages for corresponding Accounts .
Agree absolutely. The only players that are any use to us now are ones that buy into what we are and fancy the challenge.
The only 2 clubs who have had to build themselves back after previously being an elite club. Milan and Liverpool
Guess how they went about it? (Granted Milan are still on the journey)
Throwing money at the problem doesn't work, we are prime example of this.
I don't think this guy is anywhere near as proven as Haaland, in fairness. I'm not sure I see that comparison. Haaland is expensive not just because he's up and coming but because he's legitimately one of the best strikers in the world, banging in goals left right and centre in the CL etc. The package is always going to reflect that.
Weirder things have happened than this lad being slightly overrated on here or being a good player but not quite as advertised. The problem with going bonkers on wages and using that as your trump card to get them through the door is it has a knock on effect for a wage structure which we should be aiming to incentivise and certainly modify. It also gives you nowhere to go to reward them for consistency at renewal.
In my opinion you have to have a line in the sand with the players, in terms of wages and the attitude they show towards joining. You can only have XI players playing and maybe 15-16 that are happy around a squad, it's a big old world out there to fish for players. The obsession with individuals should be something for the fans, not something I'd like to see with our recruitment department.
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No I would not. We shouldnt sign any player who would pick Newcastle over United based on money, it speaks to their motivation and mentality (not what we want)
There are other players who can offer what we need. Most important is not a single player but squad cohesions and building a group that is highly motivated (for the right reasons). We have already seen what happens when players are only here for the salary
Sounds like the new United DNA
Don’t tell me you believe that can be built by just getting anyone of a certain level.
We have no idea what ETH actual coaching level is. But it would help if we get him the best players available for the profile of player he wants. From what we heard Tchouameni is top of his list. So maybe we put the extra effort in and try to get him. Don’t you think?
Being motivated by Champions League isn't being a mercenary it's something called ambition. If United, Liverpool, Chelsea and Real came in for him and all offered the same amount of wages and playing time why would he choose us. In this instance the only way we could persuade him is either more money (which would make him a mercenary) or if he's a giant United fan. Otherwise why else why he turn down being a starter for teams regularly reaching stages of the Champions League we haven't reached for 10 years for a project where no one knows how long it'll take us to reach those levels again.
We are exaggerating on the wages issue imo. It's not like we would make him the best paid player in the World. Liverpool have their own ability to finance, we have ours. If we can offer a bit more there is nothing wrong with that. Chelsea blew us out of the water on a number of occasions in the past and it wasn't a problem for them. You have to compensate a bit when you are not as good. You can't just go for players that no other team wants and then expect to make top 4 against possibly the best 2 teams in Europe plus a Chelsea stacked with talent and even a Spurs likely to spend big with a good manager.
We only need to make sure we have the right environment and the players are hungry for success as most young players are.
We only need to make sure we have the right environment and the players are hungry for success as most young players are.
Right, I realise my last reply might sound a little harsh, but in my first post I mentioned the fire pit that is the PL and what we're up against across the spectrum, in which I put Dortmund to the side because what they had to do is not comparable with what you're up against in this league. You are talking about a trundle back to the top, which our own consultant has said is not necessary and has pitfalls in and of itself (which I highlighted in said post); clubs do what they can and have to as succinctly as circumstances allow. Juventus and Milan also fit this determination - Juve with their infamous haggling, loans, buying on the cheap and so forth. Milan are a little different, but their time constraints, in all aspects, are nothing like what Manchester United face or the hurdles we need to overcome to even challenge for the title let alone be a frontrunner.
Idealism is nice, but when broken down each club will have underlying factors for their conduct and execution, and every club rebuilds in the way that is optimal for them. City just threw away hordes of players because money is no concern for them; Klopp got by with what he had to, but had absolutely no hesitation in doing jaw-dropping financial deals the moment they were a go and needed. Cheslea drop managers and have a constant stream of players coming in and out of the club - a total rebuild is never on the cards for them.
Manchester United are not going to spend 3-4 years treading water *if* what they hope to do can be executed in 2. They just aren't. You build and construct around vital components, of which, I would think midfield will be paramount for the football ten Hag plays, so it would be no surprise whatsoever to see major outlay in that department. As stated previously, Tchouameni's quality is predicated by those seeking his signature. If we can get him here, we're going to use the means necessary to offset all the reasons not to come here. None of what you said is special for a player who has his pick of clubs as it can be matched everywhere else. We're in a time where City, Liverpool, PSG, Chelsea and Madrid could all do with replenishment in midfield, I think the only club there where he doesn't become a starter off the bat is Madrid, and that's dependent on Modric and Casemiro's legs. Being a starter here is neither here nor there in terms of enticement.
If you're saying just let the player go elsewhere, why would we do that if we genuinely believe he would expedite our rebuild? It's not a case of like-for-like as there isn't another CM who is available and as highly touted as the player. Even if we throw our hat in, he may opt to go elsewhere, which is fair enough, but the notion we should dip out because of wages and not repeating mistakes of the past is asinine to me. The biggest failings of this regime has been having no plan or clue of what we need or how to use what we buy. Handing out stupid renewals and paying squaddies absurd wages is also far worse than paying players who were highly coveted a wage that keeps them in line.
We're arse backwards right now and won't right that ship until in a position of dominance at which point we can dictate and make sweeping changes. That doesn't happen when you're lingering in no-mans land and your pull is as low as it's ever been. 'Take this or we walk'leaves no impression when the players will gladly opt for another club.
Do I think they could produce the exact same team again? No. Do I think they could reach a similar level of performance by signing players with the correct profile and mental fortitude to perform in Klopp's system? Definitely. I think they have already demonstrated that they can do this from their recent signings.
Whatever about the validity of what you've said re: their wages, they do not sign players on astronomical starting wages, anyone that has reached a top tier wage has done so through merit. Giving people crazy wages based on very little is one of the cornerstones of our recent failure, these things need to be earned over a period of time, to create the correct environment in which player's strive to succeed.
We should yes but the player needs to want to be here beyond money and thats a simple fact. Its exactly what Rangnick changed at LiepzegSounds like the new United DNA
Don’t tell me you believe that can be built by just getting anyone of a certain level.
We have no idea what ETH actual coaching level is. But it would help if we get him the best players available for the profile of player he wants. From what we heard Tchouameni is top of his list. So maybe we put the extra effort in and try to get him. Don’t you think?
Building on a machine that's already in motion and juggernauting its way along is easier than getting the thing going. Players are falling over themselves to go there now, which would have been risible a few years ago. They are making admittedly impressive purchases, but they are doing so without lieu of their cornerstones crumbling i.e. their speculative punts may sink or swim, but the mainstays are still in place, so they can take more risks, which is something clubs do when they're at the top.
Klopp's going to oversee a major rebuild in the next 3-4 years and will be very interesting to see where they go when the time comes to replace a Salah or a VVD or even the keeper. Konate might already be VVD's heir apparent, but in the meantime they can see if that works out. It's frustrating that they've got their house so much in order because the element of true risk has been reduced to a ridiculously low level.
You make its sound like all that happened by accident when in reality it came about because they but they invested in an analytics-led approach that has proven to be successful elsewhere as well, both in football and other sports. It isn't an accident that they found the likes of Mane, Salah, etc. It's a repeatable facet of their recruitment.
As for TAA, talented though he is he's still just one player and top clubs should be expecting to produce at least one elite level player relatively regularly, else something is seriously wrong. When multiple top level talents come through at the same time then I can understand ascribing it to luck but it would be more odd if they had managed to build a title-winning side without a single player from their own ranks in the first eleven.
I’ll keep this short.
If the player wants to come here, he will be paid well, we are not Brighton.
If the player will only come here because we will out pay every other club and offer him a wage he cannot refuse. Well we are asking for trouble.
Despite what many seem to be peddling, he isnt the only player who we can get and whilst he may be top of the list of players, he is not the only player in the list.
We need to build a team first that is the sum of its parts, we can add expensive final touches on later. A title winning team is not built in a single summer and this player isn’t going to be the difference either.
You seem to be taking it a bit to the extremes. No one is saying that he would come only for the money or that we would pay double level wages; just that we might need to add some extra on the top to help with the risk that we might or might not be successful with our project. I'm sure Liverpool did this is the past with the likes of Suarez and Torres and Chelsea did it a lot in their ascendency.
Every summer, we have fans here saying we wont sign players with or without CL.
Is it really hard for a club like UTD to compete for signature of players when we have most of the criterials in what players looking for when they sign.
I mean look at UTD , we cant say that we dont try to compete every year (the intention is there albeit lack of systems, wrong managers and palyers, structure etc. We try to buy palyers every summer no matter the fees as long as the manager wants the players. Most of the players are bought with expensive fees.
Utd as a club and brands is still up there with the top 3 clubs in the world imo. We will have a new project this year and players will still like to join as long as we offer them good projects and salary and exposure.
Is it really hard for a club like UTD to compete for signature of players when we have most of the criterials in what players looking for when they sign.
I mean look at UTD , we cant say that we dont try to compete every year (the intention is there albeit lack of systems, wrong managers and palyers, structure etc. We try to buy palyers every summer no matter the fees as long as the manager wants the players. Most of the players are bought with expensive fees.
Utd as a club and brands is still up there with the top 3 clubs in the world imo. We will have a new project this year and players will still like to join as long as we offer them good projects and salary and exposure.
Liverpool stopped doing it on the way to becoming successful.
You are purposely avoiding huge bodies of my posts to stick to what you believe, as if it's not the reality (feel free to refute) and me just reiterating the same points in rebuttal is fruitless.
By what you're saying, we will be in perpetual state wishing on prayers whilst what is here becomes jaded and want out.
I'd be happy if your suggested method could come to fruition, but it's not grounded in the reality of now and the PL obstacles we face.
The players in question were very successful. It was the other, more bang for the buck that were the problem.
Tchouameni is exceptionally highly rated and can be a foundation for many years to come.
Looking at the kind of signings Liverpool made, Mane, Salah, Robertson, Firminho, Matip and even VVD. These are all players you could of possibly signed without Champions League football. Remember reading an article on the Athletic that this is the first summer with Murtough having full agency. Let's see if there are any noticeable changes.
Plus the way Liverpool succeeded is far from the only way to success. Chelsea has had as much PL and CL success during Klopp's time and Madrid much, much, more. Each club does it according to it's potential.
Which is why we don’t need to follow the Dortmund’s of this world.
My sentiments exactly.
Also let's not forget they spent 75m on a CB and 60m on a keeper. Both of which were world records for their positions at the time.
Reasons why he would join us?
Big club attraction - yes
Chance of trophy - not in foreseeable future
CL football - not for next season
Money - maybe, depends how much we willing to offer
Childhood dream - probably not
Advice from someone he trust - (Pogba) so probably not
Big club attraction - yes
Chance of trophy - not in foreseeable future
CL football - not for next season
Money - maybe, depends how much we willing to offer
Childhood dream - probably not
Advice from someone he trust - (Pogba) so probably not
I don't think that's how I made it sound, tbh. Analytics played its part, but when push came to shove a massive wad of cash tipped them over into the force we know them as now.
I think you are doing a massive disservice to the player he is, one that is a literal catalyst in their side who is so hard to deal with in an offensive capacity. Liverpool would not play the way they do without him, nor would they be half as effective. Whatever might be said of him in a defensive capacity, he's a truly special talent on the offensive end. It is lucky to have that kind of player come through as what he does doesn't have a replicate anywhere near as good.
Your point about elite players coming through holds, but our special one mightn't even have a career let alone be the staple of our side. Expecting us to kit out the rebuild with players of the required standard is a leap of faith at the moment and heaps pressure on those youngsters.
The model some of you are talking about, I believe we are miles away from and I don't believe we can bridge that gap without quality players coming in in the interim. I don't think this is chicken and egg when we have so little going for us.
Exactly. I never could understand why some are so adamant for us to fallow Dortmund or Leicester model. It worked for Liverpool now ok, with a few broken transfer records on the way that some fail to mention, but surely if you want to be the best at winning you have to more or less fallow what the best are doing. A few smart buys here and there sure, but a lot of the heavy weight of consistent success is usually carried by buying quality that tends to cost a premium.
I think this post should dead the topic. Basically everything in a nutshell.
Also something we should all agree on if we want to be successful again in the 3 transfer windows Ralf spoke of.
Completely disagree since I quite obviously said until we can offer UCL football. You can then attract better players. Closer you get to your target you can attract better calibre of player. No where have I said don’t sign top players forever.
yes, we aren't in the CL next year so by that definition we aren't in pole position.
I still believe that players look at a place like Old Trafford and 76k people every week and know what it can provide both in competition, salary and history of the club. The only issue is that other clubs like city, chelsea are willing to pay like United for top players or Pool with their most recent success although they don't pay as much
I haven't seen a lot of him but from what I have seen he appears to be an upgrade on what we currently have, certainly more energy than Matic who he would be replacing in the squad. He is young and so has potential resale value, a step in the right direction. Offer him Matic's wages keeping our wage structure at net zero. If we can buy him at the right price with potential sell on value in a few years what is the issue. he would be an upgraded Dan James signing.
but Matic’s wages are part of the reason that the wage structure is an absolute state. We need to cut the bill not keep it at the same level. Offering those wages to somebody we can’t be certain will work shouldn’t be plan.
Matic has been a bit part player for two years at least, Tchoumaeni should be a nailed on starter and someone we build around for the next few years. Our wages problem has been down to Matic, Mata, Jones, Lingard, Bailly and Cavani picking up huge wages and almost never playing
This fella would be a massive risk. There’s no reason to think he wouldn’t be on the list you’ve just given in 18 months.
They all signed as exactly what you’ve described this lad as. This is how you end up in the situation we are in.
The fella is much younger than any of those guys and a regular French international. Can it all go wrong, of course but he will still have sell on value in 18 months which none of the players I listed currently do. I think he is a reasonable bet if he can be brought in at the 50-60m mark. Certainly preferable to 100m for Declan Rice..
The fact that Liverpool are sniffing about him is a sign that he is a good player, unfortunately it is also a sign that we probably won't get him in the long run as they are currently way more competitive than us.
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