Australia Tour of South Africa 2018/Ball tampering

[jungledrums]

He clearly says in his post match press conference that "the leadership group spoke about it and thought it was a way to get an advantage". If that does not imply being part of the planning or at least being aware of it being thought about then I do not know what is. Could be either one. What it simply cannot be that he had no idea it would/could happen and only learnt about it after it happened.

A captain taking the heat is a very common practice. You do that stuff when players make mistakes or are being criticized for poor performances, etc. You do not do it when someone is blatantly cheating. And even if yo do decided to take the heat when someone is cheating, yoo do not turn around and call yourself a cheat.

Stop making assumptions of what I understand or do not understand to question my character. The only one whose character is in question here is Steve Smiths. The other thing in question is if you actually naive or your biased opinion is making you act so naive.

The official findings have not accused him in any capacity of hatching the plan. So therefore from my point of view, he's guilty of not making an attempt to stop the plotting of Warner and Bancroft, and the deception after that. All this comes from the official report - if you still believe I'm being naive then there's no point continuing this discussion. I can accept I've shown bias, but it hasn't swayed my judgement given I'm basing everything I've said off the official findings.

For what it's worth, Warner can do one, he's clearly a piece of shit as this isn't his first transgression, and Bancroft too I feel less sympathy for as he physically committed the tampering. It's (basically) only Smith who I believe is being particularly harshly treated.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Is your point not that he planned it? He did not plan it is my point, and I've posted the proof that he did not.

Also, if it is such a foreign concept that a captain would attempt to take heat off his players then it speaks volumes of your character.

So if we break this down your certainty that Smith was not involved is reliant on three things:

1. An absolute dismissal of Smith saying he was involved
2. A conviction that CA's investigation was impartial, fair, and actually concerned with establishing the truth .
3. A conviction that what CA have told the public has been transparent and accurately summarises the events.

In support of two and three you can point towards the evidence of them confirming it was sandpaper not tape, but I think that it the only evidence we have. Against that we have to also believe that:

1. Bowlers who were using the tampered with ball were unaware that it had been tampered with (I worry for Starc's ego if that is the case)
2. That Lehmann, who was seen on Walkie Talkie to Hanscomb just before Hanscomb ran out to tell Bancroft to hide the sandpaper, knew nothing.
3. That Australia were caught by sheer chance not, as Fannie de Villiers has said, because of hours of Supersport camera operators following Australian fielders looking for evidence because of how ludicrously early the Aussie team got the ball to reverse swing in previous tests.

Given the second list I would suggest it's, at best, ill advised to place any weight in the truth of CA's finding.

 

[KM]

Lehmann has resigned and has said the 4th test will be his last.

 

[Xaviesta]

I have a question for those who follow country cricket: How did Jason Gillespie's Yorkshire team behave on the cricket field? Were they hard but fair to coin a cliche?

 

[kiristao]

The official findings have not accused him in any capacity of hatching the plan. So therefore from my point of view, he's guilty of not making an attempt to stop the plotting of Warner and Bancroft, and the deception after that. All this comes from the official report - if you still believe I'm being naive then there's no point continuing this discussion. I can accept I've shown bias, but it hasn't swayed my judgement given I'm basing everything I've said off the official findings.

For what it's worth, Warner can do one, he's clearly a piece of shit as this isn't his first transgression, and Bancroft too I feel less sympathy for as he physically committed the tampering. It's (basically) only Smith who I believe is being particularly harshly treated.

My point of being naive was directed towards people who thought Smith had no idea about it and only learnt about it after it happened. I never said he gave the instructions to do it. I only said that Smith himself said that he was part of a discussion where they considered doing it so he had an idea that it would/could happen. I do not blame him for attempting to cover it up. It was a desperate attempt and most people in his position would do it.
Anyways, bottomline is
1) He was guilty
2) The punishment is over the top
3) Stuff like this will continue to happen
4) Lets move on from this and I will have a beer here you should have one too wherever you are!

 

[K2K]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Lehmann crying too.

 

[Archie Leach]

Christ, Steve Smith’s press conference broke my heart.

A lot of people are justifying their existence making some cnut-y behaviour into world news.

I think a lot in the game need to acknowledge this is a symptom of a sickness in cricket and reflect.

It was bad behaviour in a game that’s full of it. As far as Australian sport goes, the cricketers are angels. Compared to the sex offenders, drug cheats and thugs in the various football leagues.

 

[ha_rooney]

It's right Lehman has gone. If Australia are genuine about wanting to change their culture & behaviour, he had to go as he promoted that style to push boundaries & I doubt he would've been able to implement change.

Can't believe what a mess this series has become with all the off-field stuff.

 

[jungledrums]

So if we break this down your certainty that Smith was not involved is reliant on three things:

1. An absolute dismissal of Smith saying he was involved
2. A conviction that CA's investigation was impartial, fair, and actually concerned with establishing the truth .
3. A conviction that what CA have told the public has been transparent and accurately summarises the events.

In support of two and three you can point towards the evidence of them confirming it was sandpaper not tape, but I think that it the only evidence we have. Against that we have to also believe that:

1. Bowlers who were using the tampered with ball were unaware that it had been tampered with (I worry for Starc's ego if that is the case)
2. That Lehmann, who was seen on Walkie Talkie to Hanscomb just before Hanscomb ran out to tell Bancroft to hide the sandpaper, knew nothing.
3. That Australia were caught by sheer chance not, as Fannie de Villiers has said, because of hours of Supersport camera operators following Australian fielders looking for evidence because of how ludicrously early the Aussie team got the ball to reverse swing in previous tests.

Given the second list I would suggest it's, at best, ill advised to place any weight in the truth of CA's finding.

That's where my bias, as I admitted, comes into it. I watched his conference live and felt very sorry for the guy and sensed genuine sincerity and repentance. So I would say my opinion is based on the findings from the trial and his actions since the incident. For example, I sense genuine sincerity from Smith whereas Bancroft's conference seemed a little rehearsed. I haven't, by the way, ever dismissed the possibility that more has happened behind the scenes than has been led on. It's just my take on things with regard to Smith that his version of events are more or less truthful regarding his involvement.

My point of being naive was directed towards people who thought Smith had no idea about it and only learnt about it after it happened. I never said he gave the instructions to do it. I only said that Smith himself said that he was part of a discussion where they considered doing it so he had an idea that it would/could happen. I do not blame him for attempting to cover it up. It was a desperate attempt and most people in his position would do it.
Anyways, bottomline is
1) He was guilty
2) The punishment is over the top
3) Stuff like this will continue to happen
4) Lets move on from this and I will have a beer here you should have one too wherever you are!

Fair mate, I can drink to that

 

[KM]

Maxwell the happiest Australian right now, I bet.

 

[K2K]

If Australia went out and won that 4th test...

 

[NinjaFletch]

I have a question for those who follow country cricket: How did Jason Gillespie's Yorkshire team behave on the cricket field? Were they hard but fair to coin a cliche?

The two controversies involving Yorkshire I can think of are Gale getting done for abuse, and how Middlesex and Yorkshire colluded to set up a run chase in the 2016 CC last day (I was at Lords for that day, and the article below doesn't quite sum up how pissed off people were about it). Can't remember when Gillespie was in charge exactly and one of those might be before or after he was.


https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...hampionship-division-one-match-report-cricket
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/29481832

Either way, CC doesn't get the coverage to be able to be certain about how Yorkshire behaved. They could have been right cnuts and no one would have reported on it.

 

[TheGame]

Smith fronting it up at a press conference while Warner takes the cowards way out and issues press releases.

 

[KM]

If only the politicians are told to front up like this to each and every one of their deceit.

As a cricket fan, it was heartbreaking to see that Steve Smith press conference.

 

[prath92]

Smith fronting it up at a press conference while Warner takes the cowards way out and issues press releases.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[RedDevil@84]

Smith and Bancroft just spoke to the press in Aus. Smith’s particularly was heart wrenching to watch. His version of events (and the rest of the Aus board) is that he did not know about the plan, however did attempt to conceal it after he became aware of it. With that said, you could not watch his press conference without feeling sorry for him. He at one point, holding back tears, apologised for the pain he’s caused everyone else. He’s clearly, clearly the one most in pain, later breaking down when describing how much his family were affected too. In a sport with tampering as prevalent as it is, this crusade against Smith and co has been ridiculous.

Hope you say the same when Warner cries like a baby in the next press conference.

 

[kiristao]

If Australia went out and won that 4th test...

If the ball does start to actually reverse swing, I think the Aussies will ask for the ball to be changed just to be safe..

 

[Barca84]

Smith fronting it up at a press conference while Warner takes the cowards way out and issues press releases.

He clearly has little if no remorse. Blokes a wanker.

Tearful Aussies all over the shop. Let's not have any more "whingeing pom" barbs after this spectacle eh lads?

 

[jungledrums]

I think most of the team and the coach knew what was happening completely.

Hope you say the same when Warner cries like a baby in the next press conference.

If you'd have asked people whether they liked Warner prior to this incident, many, myself included, would have said no. He's always seemed like a knob and this incident does him no favours. For Smith, this incident seems out of character. Beyond that, there are reports he got drunk with strangers in the team lobby the night this scandal came out and showed little remorse, and left the team whatsapp etc, which tells me he's hardly loved amongst those that know him too. So, no, I would not feel the same level of sympathy.

 

[anant]

Hasn't Smith generally been a well behaved guy? Haven't watched much cricket, if at all since 16 Nov 2013, but he generally came across as a gent. Sure he had a few controversies like the DRS shit he pulled off, but I always liked him TBH

 

[Skills]

Hasn't Smith generally been a well behaved guy? Haven't watched much cricket, if at all since 16 Nov 2013, but he generally came across as a gent. Sure he had a few controversies like the DRS shit he pulled off, but I always liked him TBH

Yeah he's Australia's poster boy. Strong PR behind him.

 

[Rams]

Both Smith and Lehmann have some history, particularly that DRS incident against India last year. The Ozzies have lied, then lied some more, then lied again. It just seems to me that Smith feels sorry for himself. I’ve got zero sympathy for him and he’s deserving everything he’s getting. To be fair to CA I think they got the punishments about right and Lehmann did the only honorable thing by resigning.

 

[Offsideagain]

The main thing you have to take into account is just how much Cricket means to the Aussies. It’s huge, it’s as if the England soccer captain had been caught injecting steroids at half time. Warner is the main protagonist in this affair. Judging him by his behaviour off field, chinning Joe Root etc, I imagine he bullied the lad Bancroft into doing the deed. Sad thing is, they don’t need to do it.

Anyone think they fixed the Ashes series? Michael Vaughan reckons not. Smith on suicide watch now.

 

[dogwithabone]

It seems there’s a bit of sympathy for Smith but he deserves everything he’s getting. How can anyone feel for the bloke when he’s blatantly cheated and made a mockery of sport. Ok, he’s not killed anyone but his press conference reminded me when you see these documentaries and a murderer will start crying saying he or she is so sorry blah blah blah ..... too late.

Smith and the others should be banned for life and never tarnish sport ever again.

 

[No11]

Fair play to CA.
Other sporting authorities need to take note and dish out similar punishments to cheats, lets face it there are plenty cheating cnuts out there.
Cricketers, footballers, athletes, jockeys and so on...................
In other words if you want to clean things up punishments MUST be harsh.

FWIW the media reaction to this has been way over the top.
All the do gooders sticking the boot in is totally uncalled for.
Plenty hypocrites going around.

 

[zing]

It seems there’s a bit of sympathy for Smith but he deserves everything he’s getting. How can anyone feel for the bloke when he’s blatantly cheated and made a mockery of sport. Ok, he’s not killed anyone but his press conference reminded me when you see these documentaries and a murderer will start crying saying he or she is so sorry blah blah blah ..... too late.

Smith and the others should be banned for life and never tarnish sport ever again.

I don't mean to point you specifically, but these sort of equivalences aren't healthy. He allowed ball tampering to happen - he didn't murder anyone.

This has been blown up way too much and has to stop. They're all human - David Warner included.

I just saw a video of Warner walking out the airport, with his two daughters. I can't imagine what his family is going through - because their father decided to scratch a cricket ball.

Sport is important, yes, but this is completely over the top now.

 

[kps88]

He's crying because they were caught doing it. If they weren't caught, they'd have continued cheating while acting outraged when any other team came close to crossing the line.

And like Cricket Australia said, the punishment is not for ball tampering as that was handled by the ICC. I think their objectives were more about setting an example and trying to change a toxic culture in the team.

 

[zing]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_...mith-good-guy-caught-bad-place-faf-du-plessis

A very balanced interview from du Plessis. Comes across well.

Has been a surprisingly excellent choice of captain by South Africa.

 

[Raees]

Have to say the fuss over this has been remarkable.. it's got more attention than bloody match fixing.

Always believe in second chances so I hope the guys learn from this and come back better for it.

 

[MDFC Manager]

He's crying because they were caught doing it. If they weren't caught, they'd have continued cheating while acting outraged when any other team came close to crossing the line.

Exactly. Would have been business as usual if they hadn't been caught. Now that they've been caught, they ought to face the music

 

[RDCR07]

Have to say the fuss over this has been remarkable.. it's got more attention than bloody match fixing.

Always believe in second chances so I hope the guys learn from this and come back better for it.

So its terrible to bowl an premeditated no ball on the 4th ball of a over or lose a match on purpose but if you actually tamper with the ball so your bowlers can have an advantage so you can win the game it isnt as bad?

 

[zing]

So its terrible to bowl an premeditated no ball on the 4th ball of a over or lose a match on purpose but if you actually tamper with the ball so your bowlers can have an advantage so you can win the game it isnt as bad?

Yes - one is trying to lose a game, and the other is trying to win a game. I'm amazed that you can't understand the difference between the two.

 

[RDCR07]

Yes - one is trying to lose a game, and the other is trying to win a game. I'm amazed that you can't understand the difference between the two.

Its still cheating was what I was getting at. It doesnt matter what "level" of cheating it was. You're still tarnishing the game, you're still going outside the laws of the game, you're still doing something that shoudn't be done.

 

[Raees]

So its terrible to bowl an premeditated no ball on the 4th ball of a over or lose a match on purpose but if you actually tamper with the ball so your bowlers can have an advantage so you can win the game it isnt as bad?

Both really bad but playing to lose is the most heinous crime of all for sure whereas ball tampering is over competitiveness taken far I.e. Cheating.

Read a Jonathan Liew article on it which has changed my mind and I think I agree now that it should definitely be taken seriously but generally speaking and I said the same about Amir - first time offences should be looked at leniently and second offences should be met with life time bans.

 

[dogwithabone]

I don't mean to point you specifically, but these sort of equivalences aren't healthy. He allowed ball tampering to happen - he didn't murder anyone.

This has been blown up way too much and has to stop. They're all human - David Warner included.

I just saw a video of Warner walking out the airport, with his two daughters. I can't imagine what his family is going through - because their father decided to scratch a cricket ball.

Sport is important, yes, but this is completely over the top now.

I sort of agree. He hasn’t murdered anyone, he hasn’t interfered with a child etc and to that end he shouldn’t be hung at dawn in the town square. But, equally, he should never again be allowed to participate in top level, professional sport. Premeditated cheating in sport is rock bottom and the punishment should be a life ban.

 

[harshad]

I find it hard to accept that its happened the first time.

 

[Boycott]

So its terrible to bowl an premeditated no ball on the 4th ball of a over or lose a match on purpose but if you actually tamper with the ball so your bowlers can have an advantage so you can win the game it isnt as bad?

Well yes because if you're premeditating to lose a match or just bowl an illegal delivery there must be a reason and the only reason is you're profiting from it.

 

[Hitchez]

So its terrible to bowl an premeditated no ball on the 4th ball of a over or lose a match on purpose but if you actually tamper with the ball so your bowlers can have an advantage so you can win the game it isnt as bad?

You can't seriously be comparing fixing with ball tampering? It's not even close to being in the same league of offenses. Everyone illegally tampers with the ball to varying degrees. Only the biggest cnuts get paid to under perform.

I sort of agree. He hasn’t murdered anyone, he hasn’t interfered with a child etc and to that end he shouldn’t be hung at dawn in the town square. But, equally, he should never again be allowed to participate in top level, professional sport. Premeditated cheating in sport is rock bottom and the punishment should be a life ban.

There's some distinction that needs to be drawn as far as the levels of cheating goes. It's akin to saying all serial divers in football (Like Alli for instance) should be banned for life because they cheat. If you're diving again and again then clearly you come onto the pitch with the intention of cheating.

 

[Fully Fledged]

is this cheating thing new to cricket then?

lot of hypocrites going round

A lot of the Australian team and coaching staff have brought this on them selves by the way they have talked about other players.

Broad for example who stood his ground after being caught out in an ashes match. The umpire didn't realise that Broad had hit the ball so gave him not out and Broad carried on. Although Broad was in his rights to stand his ground and wait for the umpire to call him out the Aussie team made a big deal about it saying that it was poor sportsmanship therefore cheating.

"I hope the Australian public give it to him right from the word go for the whole [Australian] summer," he said.

"And I hope he cries and goes home. I don't advocate walking, but when you hit it to first slip it's pretty hard."

He added in the interview with Australian radio network Triple M: "Certainly our players haven't forgotten, they're calling him everything under the sun as they go past so I would hope the Australian public are the same because that was just blatant cheating."

Lehmann's quotes about Broad. Now whose the one crying and going home? What goes around comes around.

 

[ArmchairCritic]

Such a strange affair which has entirely been Australia's fault from top to bottom. From the act, through to the lies and the subsequent witch hunt. No one was asking for 1 year ban and everyone would have said fair enough if the players were barred from leadership positions and fined but Cricket Australia had to prove some abstract point. There are still several questions remaining unanswered too such as who came up with the tape lie and if it truly was the first time they have done it (who has a piece of sandpaper dimensioned to be concealed within a hand just lying about in their dressing room!!).

In the end Australia's machismo has collapsed in on itself and we're watching grown men being reduced to tears over something the umpires did not deem significant enough to even penalise 5 runs for.