Barcelona: Charged with corruption .... again!

[Iker Quesadillas]

Barcelona sees itself as a top club with the ambition to fight for all trophies. For that you need high quality players and not only for the starting 11, but also on the bench for various reasons:
Injury, recovery, motivation to perform on the highest level through competition, different skillsets for various systems against different opponents.

As I pointed out already, with numbers, you don't actually need that many high quality players. 14-15 that can play 2000+ minutes and one or two that can contribute 1000-1500, that's about it. Barcelona are already past that and seemingly want to go further. Past that point you're just paying high salaries for people to be on the bench.

This is a squad that, after some winter additions and a change in manager, had a similar number of points as Real Madrid did, and won 0-4 at the Bernabeu. The idea that it needs half a dozen additions to be competitive is not supported by numbers or common sense. It is just total excess from a president that wants to Make A Statement.

 

[Ragnar123]

As I pointed out already, with numbers, you don't actually need that many high quality players. 14-15 that can play 2000+ minutes and one or two that can contribute 1000-1500, that's about it. Barcelona are already past that and seemingly want to go further. Past that point you're just paying high salaries for people to be on the bench.

This is a squad that, after some winter additions and a change in manager, had a similar number of points as Real Madrid did, and won 0-4 at the Bernabeu. The idea that it needs half a dozen additions to be competitive is not supported by numbers or common sense. It is just total excess from a president that wants to Make A Statement.

Getafe also sometimes wins against Barca and Madrid. Doesn't make them competitive for trophies. And Barca doesn't have the luxury of having players in their prime who can play the whole year without injuries like you had all those years with Modric, Kroos, Casemiro and Benzema. Our stars are "kids" like Fati, Pedri and Gavi. What happenes with young players who have to play too many minutes we saw with Pedri, who was injured half a season. The same thing can happen with Gavi. No need to mention Fati or Dembele.
Barca also needs to built a competitive squad in the first place. That needs some experimenting from Xavi and for that you need options. When the team stands, I'm sure there will be departures next summer. Of course it's a risk to invest like that but barca is desperate and damned to succeed. High risk, high reward or high fall. Time will tell which it is. Laporta's strategy worked once, so he tries it again.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

And Barca doesn't have the luxury of having players in their prime who can play the whole year without injuries like you had all those years with Modric, Kroos, Casemiro and Benzema. Our stars are "kids" like Fati, Pedri and Gavi. What happenes with young players who have to play too many minutes we saw with Pedri, who was injured half a season. The same thing can happen with Gavi. No need to mention Fati or Dembele.

My list of Barcelona players who can and should play 2000 minutes (the 'core') is:

Ter Stegen, Araujo, Alba, Pique, Christensen, Kounde, Busquets, Pedri, De Jong, Kessie, Dembele, Torres, Aubameyang, Lewandowski, Raphinha.

That is 15 players. And as you can see, I am not including Gavi or Fati in that list, because of their age. So if either of them get injured, it should barely matter.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

There is no such thing as "the luxury of having players in their prime who can play the whole year without injuries." That is not a luxury, that is just the benefit of hindsight. They could have gotten injured. Modric missed a good chunk of 14/15 and it had a big influence in Barcelona winning a treble!

 

[crossy1686]

Is a part of Laporta's build back better plan unleashing a legion of barca apologists upon football forums?

Where the hell did they invade here from.

For some reason we always get an influx of fans from clubs we’re either competing with or buying players from.

Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Arsenal fans have always been around but we had huge numbers of Dortmund, Juventus, Leicester and Barcelona in recent years.

I predict we get a massive wave of Newcastle fans soon

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

New article on Barcelona this morning in The Athletic. Key bits:

The aforementioned former Barcelona executive sets out the dilemma: “These funds like Sixth Street are being smart. Instead of being owners, where you have to operate the club, they instead get direct access to the revenue stream without the hassle of having to run the thing. You don’t get the headaches, you don’t have the fans against you. Nobody knows who you are. Who is Mr CVC or Mr Sixth Street? It can appear impersonal, which is a little scary to me. The big question mark is whether it is a good decision, medium to longer term? But Laporta doesn’t have a choice, really; it is this path or shutting down or not competing at all and becoming irrelevant, a slow way to death for a club like Barcelona. The next presidents, who follow Laporta, will deal with the repercussions.”

During negotiations with Leeds over Raphinha, Barcelona’s anxiety became apparent. For example, at one point they wanted Leeds to legally agree the player’s transfer in this window but potentially wait until the next one in January to actually process it and receive the cash for him if it turned out that Barcelona could not register him before deadline day at the start of next month. Leeds were not prepared to play ball and also stipulated that much of the money had to be paid upfront, while inserting a penalty clause into the contract, committing Barcelona to forfeiting an additional €10million if they failed to meet a fixed payment date.

One La Liga club’s chief executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to sensitive relations between the two clubs, has told The Athletic that his team would indisputably be injecting penalty clauses into any sales to Barcelona, such is the concern over the Catalans’ long-term ability to pay instalments.

Representatives of Barcelona players have noted how the Messi, Griezmann and De Jong contracts have all found their way into Spanish newspapers and several told The Athletic this made them suspect the leaks may have come from Barcelona themselves as attempts to put pressure on players by shaping public opinion against them. Barcelona were approached for comment. Agents of Barcelona players wonder privately who will be next, feeding a paranoia within the squad. Some wondered whether goalkeeper Marc-Andre ter Stegen, whose contract is set to rise in value significantly next year, may be the next one to come under pressure.

https://theathletic.com/3468740/2022/08/03/barcelona-money-finances-crisis/?amp=1

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

New article on Barcelona this morning in The Athletic. Key bits:










https://theathletic.com/3468740/2022/08/03/barcelona-money-finances-crisis/?amp=1

Here is the tweet from the author Adam Crafton

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[SuperiorXI]

Lunatics running the asylum over there.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

New article on Barcelona this morning in The Athletic. Key bits:










https://theathletic.com/3468740/2022/08/03/barcelona-money-finances-crisis/?amp=1

Another quote that caught my eye is this: -

The idea, therefore, was to apply for a loan from a bank and use anticipated future broadcast revenues from playing in the Champions League as the security for the loan.

UEFA’s response was a straightforward “no” and European football’s governing body explained to the Barcelona official that they could not use several years’ worth of future Champions League television money as security because there was no guarantee they would qualify for the tournament in every season. This is because Champions League qualification is secured through sporting merit, rather than a birthright.

The Barcelona official was described as genuinely surprised by the rejection.

 

[sullydnl]

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[antk]

It looks a bit bloated to me.

Yesterday I looked at Barcelona's squads for 08/09, 10/11, 14/15 (CL + Liga winning squads). There were 14-15 players in those squads that played 2000+ minutes. The rest of the players in those squads were:

08/09: Sylvinho, Bojan, Hleb, Gudjohnsen, Caceres, Pinto, Victor Sanchez, Pedro
10/11: Bojan, Pinto, Afellay, Thiago, Milito, Fontás, Bartra, Jeffren, Nolito, Jonathan dos Santos
14/15: Bartra, Ter Stegen, Rafinha, Adriano, Sergi Roberto, Munir, Montoya, Samper

This is mostly just a list of people who weren't really good enough for Barcelona, at the time or ever. Before you say "times have changed", in Real Madrid's squad from last season, (also CL+Liga winning), 15 players played 2000+ minutes. The players who played less than 2000 minutes:

21/22: Camavinga, Hazard, Marcelo, Jovic, Isco, Bale, Mariano, Lunin, Vallejo, Ceballos

Again, mostly 'not good enoughs' and 'on the way outs.' This seems to me like clear evidence that a squad really only needs 14-15 players who can be counted on.

Looking at Barcelona's squad, you'd expect these players would/should play 2000+ minutes: Ter Stegen, Araujo, Alba, Pique, Christensen, Kounde, Busquets, Pedri, De Jong, Kessie, Dembele, Torres, Aubameyang, Lewandowski, Raphinha. That's already 15 players. You have the core of a team right there. and with Fati, Gavi, Garcia, Depay for sub 2000 min players. And you want to replace one core player with another one plus two 30+ year olds?

There's no way this is necessary.

Tbf football has switched to 5 subs instead of 3 since then. Real Madrid was generally regarded as a bit thin last year, and had to bank on the versatility of Valverde and Nacho to get through injuries and suspensions.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Tbf football has switched to 5 subs instead of 3 since then. Real Madrid was generally regarded as a bit thin last year, and had to bank on the versatility of Valverde and Nacho to get through injuries and suspensions.

There may be more subs but there aren't more minutes. 2000 minutes is 22 games. A competitive team might expect to play 50 games per season. Anyone below 2000 min is playing less than half the games. You don't need players to be very good if they're only going to play 1/3rd of games.

Real Madrid had a thin squad last year because outside of the core of 15 players, only 1 person counted for the manager: Camavinga. The rest of the players didn't crack 1000 minutes (most of them didn't even make it to 600) and were largely ostracized. But Barcelona don't have that problem. Players like Eric Garcia and Gavi (who both played well over 2000 minutes last season) and Nico Gonzalez (who played 1780) count for the manager and are perfectly capable of playing somewhere between 1000-1500.

 

[VorZakone]

So to summarize: in order to finance transfers, they've been selling rights to several parts of their businesses, is that correct? Would that even be a smart long-term strategy to sell off so many rights?

 

[caid]

So to summarize: in order to finance transfers, they've been selling rights to several parts of their businesses, is that correct? Would that even be a smart long-term strategy to sell off so many rights?

I'd say the first 10% of tv rights sale was just kind of necessary. They had to find 150m or so to comply with FFP. They could have done that with players sales but it would take a lot of sales and probably turn them into a midtable team and create problems elsewhere in terms or reduced income.
I dont really care enough to do the math but between that 10% and selling de jong i presume they could have done a fair bit of business - bring in Lewandowski and register their frees, maybe stretch out to bring in Azpiliqueta and Alonso who will probably be pretty cheap if they move.
Selling 15% more of tv revenue to bring in even more players looks irresponsible i'd say. Talk of selling even more assets looks even more irresponsible. I'd say Laporta is basically stealing the transfer budgets of future presidents at this point.

 

[Oly Francis]

Corruption lever !

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[UnofficialDevil]

How an advisory firm close to Real Madrid president Florentino Perez helped Barcelona secure investments worth hundreds of millions this summer

Imagine that... Spanish football

 

[Niemans]

Small advance according to Què T'hi Jugues:

Fiscal year 21-22: +98M€
Own funds -353M€

Budget 22-23

Revenue : 1.300M€ - Expense : 900M€

Own funds : +50M€
Wage bill : 620M€
Salary limit calculated by the club : 680M€

 

[youmeletsfly]

So they activated another door handle and they can now register the new players?

 

[Niemans]

So they activated another door handle and they can now register the new players?

These numbers are today. With the sale of 25% of the television rights and 25% of BarcaStudios.

 

[youmeletsfly]

Napoli? How desperate can you become to play CL games

These numbers are today. With the sale of 25% of the television rights and 25% of BarcaStudios.

Feel like this is a risky avenue for them. If they achievr nothing in the next seasons they'll be in big trouble.

 

[Devil_forever]

Feel like this is a risky avenue for them. If they achievr nothing in the next seasons they'll be in big trouble.

Given the lack of challengers for top 4 in la Liga, they’re a shoe in for CL football; so not much risk there tbh. Once the new stadium opens, they’ll be fine,

 

[cyberman]

Given the lack of challengers for top 4 in la Liga, they’re a shoe in for CL football; so not much risk there tbh. Once the new stadium opens, they’ll be fine,

They finished second last year and still faced financial ruin. They’re banking in winning multiple league titles and deep CL finishes.
Just imagine getting involved in a CL group of death like there has been over the last few seasons since the seeding change. That’s how close they are to fighting for their lives

 

[UnofficialDevil]

They finished second last year and still faced financial ruin. They’re banking in winning multiple league titles and deep CL finishes.
Just imagine getting involved in a CL group of death like there has been over the last few seasons since the seeding change. That’s how close they are to fighting for their lives

If they get knocked out and don't even get past the first group

 

[jeff gurr]

For some reason we always get an influx of fans from clubs we’re either competing with or buying players from.

Liverpool, City, Chelsea and Arsenal fans have always been around but we had huge numbers of Dortmund, Juventus, Leicester and Barcelona in recent years.

I predict we get a massive wave of Newcastle fans soon

I agree that we come here because of transfer rumours but end up staying.
As a Leicester fan, the reason I'm still here is that Redcafe is a damn good football forum & I think a lot of "outsiders" would say the same thing.

 

[Artimities]

Okay, let's see those following points from a general person with common sense who believes barca is RUINING football:

Barcelona sees itself as a top club with the ambition to fight for all trophies. For that you need high quality players and not only for the starting 11, but also on the bench for various reasons:
Injury, recovery, motivation to perform on the highest level through competition, different skillsets for various systems against different opponents.

A nice buzzword without any meaning on itself. Volkswagen is €200 billion in debt. If they can pay their debts with their own money, why so many people jump on it? Barca has no suggar daddy, every credit is being accepted by the banks because of barca's revenue, they achieved by the way on their own with over hundred years of football. Why do people think they are smarter than auditors of multi billion $ investment banks?

Not magically, but through investment. In football, players are the investment as they generate revenue. First lesson in business administration. That's how investments work.
Without investments, there is no growth. Without growth, the problem stays and gets worse. Second lesson in business.

No one is legally owed a penny. Barca restructured many contracts to pay less during covid and pay them the deffered wages on top in the next years. Every player agreed to it, since they understood barca couldn't pay them because a big part of their revenue vanished over night (around €300m). Yes, it's Bartomeu's fault in giving every dime away barca earned so they had nothing left when Covid hit. But that's just business risk. No one could have imagined that the stadiums would close for over a year and tourism would stop completely. Barca is the team that relied on tourism more than any other football club worldwide. People who travel to barcelona on holiday are willing to pay €200 to see a game in the Camp Nou, €30 to see the museum and even more money to spend in the fanshop. Barcelona was a tourist magnet before covid and a big part of barca's revenue came from tourists and that ended unpredictably. So I miss the joke here as every player get's his wage as was agreed so far. Or can you proof otherwise? Is a player suing barca for not getting his wages?

What has 5) to do with 6) ? They are completely different points. I explained the reason barca buying players in 1). And how is "holding up" a thing to complain? Is this your first transfer window? Every club does that until everyone is satisfied with the transfer. You want to criticize that, then have fun criticizing all the football clubs around the globe. By the way we have a free market in europe. There is no draft system, so players can hold their transfers as long as they want to and I'm really glad about it (as is every other football fan I believe). That's what's happening with Frenkie by the way. He is holding up the transfer, barca and united agreed on a fee weeks ago.

Well if that's not a nice take from a general person with common sense. Thank you for your points and have a nice day.

mate, respectfully… there is nothing about what Barcelona Is doing that is considered GOOD business. They are floundering and a joke in terms of financial means. The only safety they have is the government will probably end up bailing them out… but if that is how you think a business should run then kudos to you.
tell me how selling 25% of your future tv rights and 20 plus percent of social media rights is smart? It’s a long term loss.

 

[Artimities]

Feel like this is a risky avenue for them. If they achievr nothing in the next seasons they'll be in big trouble.

With inflation.. they are being robbed and will no doubt take a loss in the long run.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

Strange, as United and the other English clubs released categorical statements stating they had withdrawn.

These statements were released online, verbally as well as social media, calling for the Super League to then claim these clubs had breached their contracts, suggesting that they had infact withdrawn.

I think our ex-ceo also had to quit because of it. Bless the SL.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

They finished second last year and still faced financial ruin. They’re banking in winning multiple league titles and deep CL finishes.
Just imagine getting involved in a CL group of death like there has been over the last few seasons since the seeding change. That’s how close they are to fighting for their lives

I’d argue the opposite. They’re a massive brand and will be fine long term. You are being incredibly over dramatic. People always talk doom and gloom for the large clubs and they end up fine.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

Given the lack of challengers for top 4 in la Liga, they’re a shoe in for CL football; so not much risk there tbh. Once the new stadium opens, they’ll be fine,

Exactly

I don’t think what Laporta is doing comes without risks but people really are overflowing all of this. Their pull is still incredible and they’ve got a good squad and great young players.

 

[cyberman]

I’d argue the opposite. They’re a massive brand and will be fine long term. You are being incredibly over dramatic. People always talk doom and gloom for the large clubs and they end up fine.

Have you not seen the position they’re in as we stand? Are they not a massive brand now?

 

[Charlie Foley]

I agree that we come here because of transfer rumours but end up staying.
As a Leicester fan, the reason I'm still here is that Redcafe is a damn good football forum & I think a lot of "outsiders" would say the same thing.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

No one has pulled out yet officially. Nobody spends years and millions to plan something huge with the risk anyone can just quit whenever he wants. There are fines to be payed and so far no team payed them. That means everyone is still officially a part of the SL plans, no matter the social media posts to calm the fans. Perez confirmed it. That's why I still have no idea why the Juve-Madrid-Barca SL jokes are so popular. You guys can be easily manipulated with a few SM posts.

Did they change their mind?

https://www.si.com/soccer/chelsea/n...t-confirming-european-super-league-withdrawal

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Did they change their mind?

https://www.si.com/soccer/chelsea/n...t-confirming-european-super-league-withdrawal

If we want to get technical, the statement says "Chelsea Football Club can confirm that it has begun the formal procedures for withdrawal from the group developing plans for a European Super League," not completed.

(I think they have pulled out, don't get me wrong)

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

If we want to get technical, the statement says "Chelsea Football Club can confirm that it has begun the formal procedures for withdrawal from the group developing plans for a European Super League," not completed.

(I think they have pulled out, don't get me wrong)

They have, just picked first one from a quick Google search.

The next thing will be "they haven't or they have to pay 300m fine". They dont

 

[Bluelion7]

Okay, let's see those following points from a general person with common sense who believes barca is RUINING football:

Barcelona sees itself as a top club with the ambition to fight for all trophies. For that you need high quality players and not only for the starting 11, but also on the bench for various reasons:
Injury, recovery, motivation to perform on the highest level through competition, different skillsets for various systems against different opponents.

A nice buzzword without any meaning on itself. Volkswagen is €200 billion in debt. If they can pay their debts with their own money, why so many people jump on it? Barca has no suggar daddy, every credit is being accepted by the banks because of barca's revenue, they achieved by the way on their own with over hundred years of football. Why do people think they are smarter than auditors of multi billion $ investment banks?

Not magically, but through investment. In football, players are the investment as they generate revenue. First lesson in business administration. That's how investments work.
Without investments, there is no growth. Without growth, the problem stays and gets worse. Second lesson in business.

No one is legally owed a penny. Barca restructured many contracts to pay less during covid and pay them the deffered wages on top in the next years. Every player agreed to it, since they understood barca couldn't pay them because a big part of their revenue vanished over night (around €300m). Yes, it's Bartomeu's fault in giving every dime away barca earned so they had nothing left when Covid hit. But that's just business risk. No one could have imagined that the stadiums would close for over a year and tourism would stop completely. Barca is the team that relied on tourism more than any other football club worldwide. People who travel to barcelona on holiday are willing to pay €200 to see a game in the Camp Nou, €30 to see the museum and even more money to spend in the fanshop. Barcelona was a tourist magnet before covid and a big part of barca's revenue came from tourists and that ended unpredictably. So I miss the joke here as every player get's his wage as was agreed so far. Or can you proof otherwise? Is a player suing barca for not getting his wages?

What has 5) to do with 6) ? They are completely different points. I explained the reason barca buying players in 1). And how is "holding up" a thing to complain? Is this your first transfer window? Every club does that until everyone is satisfied with the transfer. You want to criticize that, then have fun criticizing all the football clubs around the globe. By the way we have a free market in europe. There is no draft system, so players can hold their transfers as long as they want to and I'm really glad about it (as is every other football fan I believe). That's what's happening with Frenkie by the way. He is holding up the transfer, barca and united agreed on a fee weeks ago.

Well if that's not a nice take from a general person with common sense. Thank you for your points and have a nice day.

I don’t know about ruining football. But you’re Super league ambitions and lawsuit plans have the potential to be “ruinous” to the European football model that people have come to love. That IS the way people are going to see it.

Barcelona believes they are more important than other teams and even their players. Jordi Cruyff basically came out and said so, and their basic ethos “more than a club” codified that belief really.

So, in a sick sense they feel entitled to do the things they are doing.

Yes, it’s possible that you wrote in a loophole that technically puts those already earned wages in future wages, so you think you can sell them off, But that is not what those players were told. NO player should ever trust a single word that comes from Barcas mouth again.

And nobody cares if you justify horrific acts with the previous leaders actions like you are victims. Your club is responsible for YOUR club. Nobody cares if it is “the previous administrations fault”. Ou aren’t a country. You are football team that told players they would get wages they already earned over a 2 to 3 year period, and are trying to back out.

Yes, there are different kinds of debts. Apple can shift ALL its debt in less than 48 hrs if it wishes. Boehly is carrying money he already had set aside as declared capital debt for building, for tax structure

Barcelonas debt is “we have no money, our business model is bad and we can’t pay the people that work for us debt”. That is VERY different.

And .. on that note. Borrowing against future income is ALSO a kind of debt. Spain is facing inflationary forces that are bad and about to get much worse, while the Euro itself is going deflationary to other currencies. That future income you sold does not have a fixed value, and could be worth much more on paper in terms of covering yearly costs than you think it does right now. It’s not like your selling money you weren’t going to need it use. As such, it is often considered one of the riskiest and worst forms of debt.

Barca thinks they are going to escape it in just a year or two, but that will take very very large cash influxes. It will take the Super League forming, or successfully suing for the penalty money.

The PR teams are in full gear, but Barca is in a teetering, precarious position

 

[AlexUTD]

Feel like this is a risky avenue for them. If they achievr nothing in the next seasons they'll be in big trouble.

Leeds come to mind when they crashed down the leagues last time.

 

[crossy1686]

I agree that we come here because of transfer rumours but end up staying.
As a Leicester fan, the reason I'm still here is that Redcafe is a damn good football forum & I think a lot of "outsiders" would say the same thing.

Yeah I would agree. As much as this is a United forum, it's a good football forum with a lot of sensible (somewhat) people and opinions. Personally I like the *opposing fan opinions, it adds an extra dimension and stops this place from becoming an echo chamber like RAWK.

 

[Niemans]

Yeah I would agree. As much as this is a United forum, it's a good football forum with a lot of sensible (somewhat) people and opinions. Personally I like the *opposing fan opinions, it adds an extra dimension and stops this place from becoming an echo chamber like RAWK.

My case has been the same. It is a forum where you can talk about football in a cordial way, whatever team you are.

 

[Oly Francis]

Oupsie...

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Damn, it's almost as if they could have found a way to avoid that. By stopping their insane purchase streak for exemple.

If true, Laporta will look like a total fool starting the season with unregistered 50M+players, unless he sells one more jewel on the crown.

 

[prateik]

What happens next season? Do they expect their revenue to go up that much in a years time? Or salaries to drop? Aren't they supposed to pay large-ish amount to Pique next summer at the end of his contract?