Chelsea has a good academy too. It just took a transfer ban for them to actually give the players a chance...
Best academy in the world?
- Thread starter Rozay
- Start date
It might be just me but I find that list of players very underwhelming and it’ll be interesting to see how many get a sniff when all the new shiny toys arrive this summer! My guess is only James will be a starter
A DoF isn't a must and I've even admitted that myself. But the reason I was for one is due to the stability the person in such a role would provide. Someone within the setup would've been my choice.
The Athletic also reported last year that we sought advice from Ralf Rangnick regarding future planning. So that in its self proves to me that the club is making correct moves and learning from their mistakes which bodes well for the longterm.
Pogba, Rashford and Greenwood are elite players in their age ranges. Williams and McTominay have bright futures in the squad. Pereira will have a decent career somewhere in a top league. Lingard has won trophies, scored important goals and was a starter for a team that got to a World Cup semi-final. Tuanzebe got Villa promoted.
Danny Simpson and Danny Drinkwater both won the league with Leicester 4 seasons ago.
The likes of Henderson, Evans, Keane, King and Norwood are important players in strong PL teams.
Heaton, Bardsley, Brady, Shawcross, Cleverley, Welbeck, and Januzaj are/have recently been decent squad level players.
That's a lot of very reasonable quality players. Under a good manager, there's enough talent there to give a decent showing in the Premier League. And all without spending a penny.
Danny Simpson and Danny Drinkwater both won the league with Leicester 4 seasons ago.
The likes of Henderson, Evans, Keane, King and Norwood are important players in strong PL teams.
Heaton, Bardsley, Brady, Shawcross, Cleverley, Welbeck, and Januzaj are/have recently been decent squad level players.
That's a lot of very reasonable quality players. Under a good manager, there's enough talent there to give a decent showing in the Premier League. And all without spending a penny.
And Matty James if I’m not mistaken.
You can say the same about us after signings only Rashford and Pogba will start and we had to pay 90m for Pogba.
Fact is, shiny toys or not Chelsea are in 3rd place with academy players making over 200 appearances for them this season. There is zero chance they’re all just disappearing.
You can also add to that list Ake, Boga, Rice, Nketiah, Brewster, and of course Billy Gilmour who is an unreal talent. It makes for a very long list of players from only 4-5 age groups. Chelsea’s depth at youth level is unmatched by anyone, they’ve completely dominated for years now and those players are just coming through now.
If it was an historical question though, I have no certitudes but I think that the top 5 would be Bayern, United, Real Madrid, Ajax and Santos, of course it's debatable because several Brazilian and Argentine clubs are in contention. Barcelona don't actually have a long list of quality academy products, they have one exceptional generation when the other clubs mentioned have several.Yea it's true, it explicitly says not historical
Bit harsh on Barca. Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, messi, Pique, Pedro, Alba, Fabregas are all top top players, some who left as teens but I think they’re more Barca than the club who sign them at 16. I do t think we can take credit for the Pogbas or the Januzaj’s that the sign as world class prospects at 15/16. Especially when they leave at 18/19 and we have to resign them for 100 odd million.
The measure of our capability as an academy I think are the players we nurture from little kids into the first team. Look at most of our academy grads now and we’ve done that. Greenwood was 6, Rashford I think was 11 or 12. Not sure how old McT and Williams were when they started with us.
I kind of find a bit mixed when we mention Pogba as a player from the academy. Not cause we signed him when he was 16, that is ok. But the entire point of the academy is to produce your own players, instead of spending on them. For Pogba, we spent 100m or so when we signed him from Juventus. So, when we say that in our starting lineup we have 300m+ worth of players from academy, you need to remove the Pogba fee for it.
Still, it has given really high dividends for us. On Rashford and Greenwood, we have 2 gems which would have cost a lot of money to sign. Then McTominay and Williams have done a very good job for us and McTominay has easily become a 30-40m player. Just these players are more worth than what academy spends in a decade. This is not to count Perreira and Lingard who played many games for us. Then we have the next batch of players who might play some part here (Tuanzabe, Laird, Chong, Hannibal) and it looks excellent.
But in truth, just a Rashford or Greenwood every decade would be enough for the academy to be totally worth it.
Still, it has given really high dividends for us. On Rashford and Greenwood, we have 2 gems which would have cost a lot of money to sign. Then McTominay and Williams have done a very good job for us and McTominay has easily become a 30-40m player. Just these players are more worth than what academy spends in a decade. This is not to count Perreira and Lingard who played many games for us. Then we have the next batch of players who might play some part here (Tuanzabe, Laird, Chong, Hannibal) and it looks excellent.
But in truth, just a Rashford or Greenwood every decade would be enough for the academy to be totally worth it.
It's not harsh, you basically mentioned one generation. Which is my point, the other clubs mentioned have several comparable generations.
Hard to class Bellerin (who I forgot), Alba etc as the same generation as Puyol, Xavi etc. They’ve also got Fati coming through and we’ve just signed one of their defenders for our youth team a la Pique. They likely have grads playing in La Liga too.
And they still have less than the clubs mentioned. Keep in mind that I didn't say that they were bad, I simply said that they weren't the best and that the aforementioned clubs had a better history in that department. I don't see how that is harsh.
You can't forget the Barca generation from the 90s as well with Pep, Ferrer, Amor and Sergi.
I wouldn't call it exceptional, it's a good one for a big club but it's not exceptional.
Post SAF, so much credit to Nicky Butt and Ole, both for his previous and current role in the clubs management. LVG also contributed in his own way.
But Moyes and Mourinho harmed our academy so it’s not as great as it could have been. If only our post SAF succession has been better, perhaps we’d have the best academy world football had ever seen. If ole can stick around a few years, and we get the appointment after him right too, I’m sure we’ll achieve that.
This is a list from the Mirror in 2019 which showed the academy that each Premier League player graduated from and tallied up the minutes played between 2016/17 season and the 2018/19 season - for those who moved clubs as a youth player, the last academy they played in is the one credited.
Top 20 producers of Premier League players
(Rank, club, minutes, change in ranking from 2017-18)
1 Manchester United 27,395 (-)
2 Tottenham 17,903 (-)
3 Southampton 15,964 (+6)
4 Chelsea 15,870 (-1)
5 Manchester City 13,605 (+7)
6 Sheffield United 12,400 (-1)
7 Liverpool 12,104 (+10)
8 Benfica 11,032 (+23)
9 West Ham 10,608 (+2)
10 Sporting Lisbon 10,127 (+6)
11 Barcelona 9,712 (+22)
12 Ajax 9,418 (-2)
13 Everton 9,404 (-5)
14 Schalke 9,031 (-)
15 Toulouse 8,793 (+70)
16 Leeds 8,279 (-3)
17 Crystal Palace 7,977 (+7)
18 Feyenoord 7,888 (-11)
19 Coventry 7,793 (+113)
20 Arsenal 7,604 (-16)
Top 20 producers of Premier League players
(Rank, club, minutes, change in ranking from 2017-18)
1 Manchester United 27,395 (-)
2 Tottenham 17,903 (-)
3 Southampton 15,964 (+6)
4 Chelsea 15,870 (-1)
5 Manchester City 13,605 (+7)
6 Sheffield United 12,400 (-1)
7 Liverpool 12,104 (+10)
8 Benfica 11,032 (+23)
9 West Ham 10,608 (+2)
10 Sporting Lisbon 10,127 (+6)
11 Barcelona 9,712 (+22)
12 Ajax 9,418 (-2)
13 Everton 9,404 (-5)
14 Schalke 9,031 (-)
15 Toulouse 8,793 (+70)
16 Leeds 8,279 (-3)
17 Crystal Palace 7,977 (+7)
18 Feyenoord 7,888 (-11)
19 Coventry 7,793 (+113)
20 Arsenal 7,604 (-16)
any output is merely a reflection of the input.
The club has has an inconsistent culture and identity, way of playing or youth policy since SAF retired.
The club itself has been purely about making money so it’s not that youth players have struggled to find any hooks to anchor themselves too and focussed on themselves instead.
It’s great to produce attackers as well.
We seem to have produced plenty of 1st team defenders: Gary, Phil, Evans, Brown, O’Shea,
Plenty of 1st midfielders: Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Fletcher, Butt, McTominay
Nice though to have produced a couple of worthy strikers/attackers that are 100M+ players
We seem to have produced plenty of 1st team defenders: Gary, Phil, Evans, Brown, O’Shea,
Plenty of 1st midfielders: Giggs, Scholes, Beckham, Fletcher, Butt, McTominay
Nice though to have produced a couple of worthy strikers/attackers that are 100M+ players
Incredible
Tbh, academy wasn't particularly great under SAF either. Yes, he used lot of players but the quality was still missing. Credit to Ed or whoever worked on it, there was an article couple of years back that lot of efforts and money is going to academy restructuring and we are reaping the benefits now.
Hopefully more to come.
Very true
Henderson
Simpson-Keane-Evans-Williams
Drinkwater---McT---
Mason---Lingard---King
Rashford
Welbeck,McNeil,Januzaj,Heaton,Tuanzube,Pereira as subs
Will finish mid table.
This
Under David Gill things were looking pretty bleak until Woodward provided the tools for the like of Nicky Butt to succeed. Woodward gets alot of flak but he's done more for the club than Gill IMO. Gill was lucky he had Fergie winning titles regularly so no one questioned the way he neglected the academy.
No i disagree. I think the list of Chelsea’s academy players have a limit as to their potential- they all seem like decent squad players and not players that will be tearing up the league.
Pogba, Rashford, Greenwood all have elite player written all over them. Who was the last world class player Chelsea produced?
and also to Woodward who spent big on academy coaches and scouts after our academy was left behind City's under the likes of Gill who seems to have completely ignored the academy.
Both were sold to smaller clubs because they weren’t good enough to play here. Apologies on Foster, replace him with any of a multitude of names, Adnan januzaj for example.
So only players who play hundreds of games for us and go to real Madrid have made it. Gotcha.
Agree with this mostly. Ed came in and realized that the academy was no where near where it should be. We could recruit to talent because of our name but that wasn't enough, especially with what City were doing.
Nick Butt can take some credit but I think at least equal praise needs to go to head of academy Nick Cox and John Murtough. I know they're both very highly thought of by the FA.
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Very good point. Actually, the main credit should go to Woodward, as he initiated this a root and branch restructure long ago. And stuck by it, despite Mourinho not giving it much credence.
Thanks for pointing out, and hope all fans remember this next time they start bashing him.
Welbeck and Cleverley clearly weren’t good enough for us but have gone on to have decent careers.
Probably the best in the sense that we have consistently produced players over a long period of time. We went through a bit of a barren spell under Fergie, but with Rashford, Greenwood, Williams, McTominay etc, and a few more prospects on the horizon (Mejbri, Menji) then our Academy has to be up there with the best in the world. Ajax and Barcelona are two that also spring to mind. In fact, I think in terms of producing one generation of talents, La Masia and that generation of Fabregas, Pique, Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Pedro etc. will never be matched again.
In terms of England, I think we produce by far the most players, and not just that, but equip young players the best to go on and have quality careers, even if not at United. Some others that then spring to mind are Southampton, Everton, Spurs and Liverpool. Arsenal produce lots of players but they never seem to make it. I always feel there's an issue with mentality with the Arsenal academy players. Listening to Saka's post match comments after the Wolves game about how he 'has to stay grounded' comes across a bit like he feels he's already made it to me. And I feel that becomes an issue with alot of Arsenal's youth products.
It's a huge part of Manchester United as a club, and the focus on our academy the last couple of years feels like we're finally finding our DNA as a club again. And credit has to go to the club for that, and whoever is responsible for the great work going on behind the scenes. It will only help us further attract more talent. You're a young kid right now with a choice of all the top clubs in England, you have to be looking at Manchester United and think "I'll get a chance there if I'm good enough." And that's how it should be.
In terms of England, I think we produce by far the most players, and not just that, but equip young players the best to go on and have quality careers, even if not at United. Some others that then spring to mind are Southampton, Everton, Spurs and Liverpool. Arsenal produce lots of players but they never seem to make it. I always feel there's an issue with mentality with the Arsenal academy players. Listening to Saka's post match comments after the Wolves game about how he 'has to stay grounded' comes across a bit like he feels he's already made it to me. And I feel that becomes an issue with alot of Arsenal's youth products.
It's a huge part of Manchester United as a club, and the focus on our academy the last couple of years feels like we're finally finding our DNA as a club again. And credit has to go to the club for that, and whoever is responsible for the great work going on behind the scenes. It will only help us further attract more talent. You're a young kid right now with a choice of all the top clubs in England, you have to be looking at Manchester United and think "I'll get a chance there if I'm good enough." And that's how it should be.
That seems strange - Alderveireld, Vertonghen, Eriksen, De Jong, Kluivert, De Ligt - and that still isn't top 10 ? Hard to imagine there are 10 clubs who do better than that
But they also had Blind, Nouri who probably would have played at a better League if not for his horrible injury that forced him to retire, van de Beek who will go to a big League next year, Onana who will probably leave for a big club in the next couple of years,
Quantitatively the fact that the Eredivisie isn't a top 5 league plays against them but even qualitatively it's not that impressive for example if I was to pick 6 current players from Lyon the list would be Benzema, Lacazette, Umtiti, Martial, Tolisso and Pléa.
Also De Jong comes from Willem II not Ajax.
For me the only top three to truly consder are Ajax, Barcelona & Manchester United. Sporting Lisbon a distant 4th for me. Having a strong academy gives you that extra weapon to work with, instead of a club that constantly buys every window.