If we're talking about solid defense, and being able to shut down the opposition, you'd do well to find a better unit than this.
And
Playing ahead of
And
Playing ahead of
Billy No Mates Draft: R1 - E/S/P vs harms
- Thread starter Physiocrat
- Start date
I think the biggest advantage in this game that you can get is to get Kopa drift on the right and combine with Cafu. Thus you will be up against Rensenbrink and Bossis and I think there you will have an advantage. Pirri can attack the space left by Kopa in the middle.
Not sure if that's what the arrow on Kopa in the formation is supposed to be.
For the talk of Eto'o being "out of place" here, let's remind ourselves of his pedigree a little.
He's a big game player, winning three, and scoring in two champions league finals. 30 goals total in the CL.
Back to back trebles in successive seasons, with different clubs!
Scored goals wherever he's played, with over 100 at Barca.
It's not just his pace that sets him apart, but his intelligent runs in behind. Having supply from the likes of Kopa, Baggio, and Van Hanegem will find him through on goal in this game.
He's a big game player, winning three, and scoring in two champions league finals. 30 goals total in the CL.
Back to back trebles in successive seasons, with different clubs!
Scored goals wherever he's played, with over 100 at Barca.
It's not just his pace that sets him apart, but his intelligent runs in behind. Having supply from the likes of Kopa, Baggio, and Van Hanegem will find him through on goal in this game.
Let's dig a little deeper into this too
First off, this high pressing style that harms is trying to pull off. From that very same Joga write up that was linked
First of all, no slight on Netzer, as pat and I have drafted him before, and he's a quality player. That being said, not sure if he's suited to this type of midfield, and how well he'd gel with his midfield partners here.
First off, this high pressing style that harms is trying to pull off. From that very same Joga write up that was linked
Doesn't quite sound like a high pressing job all over the pitch for 90 minutes will suit him.
Again, not sure if this midfield with Busquets and a Joga Bonito Brazilian will be what Netzer needs to thrive in here. Falcao is probably diverse enough to make it work, although Netzer would thrive on people running from deep, and he wouldn't get that here without seriously compromising the shape of the midfield, and losing that defensive solidarity. Busquets won't be running beyond the midfield, and if Falcao does, it leaves space open for Pirri/Van Hanegem to start making plays.Joga Bonito said:
With that in mind, and a team not really built to get the best of Netzer, but using him as a piece in a bigger picture, you lose some of what made him such a fantastic playmaker.
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Kopa has the ability to drift in and out of that central space. You're right in that having him drift wide opens space for our midfield to run through, plus his passing and movement would work well with a marauding Cafu.
With this beast
It opens that whole midfield and defense up, giving Channels and areas to exploit.
I'm getting the anto treatment here 
. Seriously though, if anything it should be German expert Balu who should be tagged and quoted on all things German 
.
I don't think the tiki-taka like Busquets would have been a good fit with Netzer at all. However, Busquets has thrived, albeit struggling in the early stages iirc, in the relatively more direct Enrique's set-up where the emphasis is on quick turn-overs to the forward line rather than about control and possession which was the case in Pep's Barca. Also Busquets isn't really a static player but a really intelligent one who is constantly on the move off the ball, probing for space etc and whilst he lacks directness, I can see him being a good foil for Netzer.
. Seriously though, if anything it should be German expert Balu who should be tagged and quoted on all things German .Tbf, I was initially apprehensive about Busquets and Netzer gelling together. I think Netzer would work best with direct and fluid players alongside him and I thought Davids would have been perfect for harms midfield. A few reasons why I believe that - firstly, there is no point in having an Alonso/Pirlo/Albertini etc there as they aren't bringing anything to the table, on the ball, that Netzer isn't. Netzer was a fairly ubiquitous playmaker as harms stated in his OP and he frequently dropped deep to dictate play and also progress further up field to make an impact in the final third of the pitch - he was more or less always behind or in line with the ball. Secondly, Netzer did thrive playing alongside direct players and his direct game-play meant that he preferred having runners, who exploited his unique passing style, rather than static ball players who would have looked to aid him during possession, which he quite frankly didn't really need or want. It was quite unique seeing him work with Beckenbauer, and I frankly haven't seen that synergy between two playmakers anywhere else, but you could say that Der Kaiser was fairly direct in his own right and was willing to play a secondary role to Netzer. Also it was rather interesting that Netzer seemed to play a more deeper role for Germany 1972 than his usual ubiquitous all-round role that he did for Gladbach, perhaps they wanted to utilize his partnership with Beckenbauer to the fullest.
I don't think the tiki-taka like Busquets would have been a good fit with Netzer at all. However, Busquets has thrived, albeit struggling in the early stages iirc, in the relatively more direct Enrique's set-up where the emphasis is on quick turn-overs to the forward line rather than about control and possession which was the case in Pep's Barca. Also Busquets isn't really a static player but a really intelligent one who is constantly on the move off the ball, probing for space etc and whilst he lacks directness, I can see him being a good foil for Netzer.
World of a difference between both these versions imo
Tbf though, Netzer is his predominant playmaking influence in the team and someone who the midfield is built around and thus I don't quite have an issue with him there.
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I'm getting the anto treatment here
I thought about that as I kept quoting your quotes of quotes."Well Joga said this..."
Every draft should be based on that
I still don't think having an attack built around pele, gives us the best Netzer. Something has to give there.
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I'll not contribute too much yet while the other two amigos are online but I will say that I don't think this is accurate at all. The plan was always to indulge Edgar's fetish for the Christmas Tree formation, and Baggio was always one of our choices for the AM roles. Interestingly, the most famous exponent of the Xmas Tree has said that his regret at passing up on Baggio earlier in his coaching career was one of the factors that led to him adopting the formation in the first place.
Ancelotti:
Two good sides and a very close matchup IMO - as has been said it's a better attack vs a better defence, with the midfields somewhat more even. Rather than highlight the great things about the teams I'm going to highlight a few of the issues/weaknesses as it's probably more productive that way.
I agree with some of the previous comments and for me personally I think Eto'o and Busquets are a touch weak in this draft.
I'm actually nowhere near as keen on harms' midfield as he is - it's clearly a very good midfield but I don't think it's perfect or the best in the draft. I think firstly on pure ability there's a slight quality issue with Busquets in this context, though I'm sure others disagree. Secondly I don't think it's quite there in terms of balance and for me there's a slight overlap in a couple of the roles (minor issue).
I agree with crappy that it possibly would have been better to field Falcao and another central midfielder behind Netzer, but maybe that's reading too much into it. Hope that doesn't sound too critical.
On the other side I just don't rate Eto'o that highly in this context and think given the lack of offensive power E/S/P have elsewhere in the team potentially it's a bit of an issue - neither Baggio or Kopa were huge goalscorers. It goes without saying that should they get through they should look to reinforce in the forward areas ASAP as the rest of the team is really good.
I think Cafu and Brehme in particular is great drafting, as I can't think of two better fits for the narrow system that they've gone for.
I agree with some of the previous comments and for me personally I think Eto'o and Busquets are a touch weak in this draft.
I'm actually nowhere near as keen on harms' midfield as he is - it's clearly a very good midfield but I don't think it's perfect or the best in the draft. I think firstly on pure ability there's a slight quality issue with Busquets in this context, though I'm sure others disagree. Secondly I don't think it's quite there in terms of balance and for me there's a slight overlap in a couple of the roles (minor issue).
I agree with crappy that it possibly would have been better to field Falcao and another central midfielder behind Netzer, but maybe that's reading too much into it. Hope that doesn't sound too critical.
On the other side I just don't rate Eto'o that highly in this context and think given the lack of offensive power E/S/P have elsewhere in the team potentially it's a bit of an issue - neither Baggio or Kopa were huge goalscorers. It goes without saying that should they get through they should look to reinforce in the forward areas ASAP as the rest of the team is really good.
I think Cafu and Brehme in particular is great drafting, as I can't think of two better fits for the narrow system that they've gone for.
Cheers for the feedback Theon. Agree with most of what you said. Looking over the quality of the teams (and throughout the draft) Busquets and Eto'o may stand out somewhat.
Our main reason for Eto'o was that with his pace and ability, he stretches the pitch vertically, opening that space for Baggio and Kopa to potentially operate in. He's a big game player too, with goals in two champions league finals, etc etc. I agree that he might struggle against a GOAT back line, but we feel fairly confident in his ability to find a goal or two against the set up here.
Especially with Cafu and Brehme opening up some space when they make some runs.
I don't see Eto'o as a weakness. He 'toyed' many great CB on his time. Most notably, Vidic on CL final. I'd go with
Eto'o could start the attack from right side, as proven by his time at Inter. And many of Baggio's goal start from his dribbling around left-side, then cut inside. SO there's no need for Kopa to provide width. ANd for Baggio to drop deep.
---------------Eto'o
Baggio-------------
Kopa
Baggio-------------
Kopa
Eto'o could start the attack from right side, as proven by his time at Inter. And many of Baggio's goal start from his dribbling around left-side, then cut inside. SO there's no need for Kopa to provide width. ANd for Baggio to drop deep.
While both McGrath and Don Elias are capable of putting up monster games to shit out the opposition (plus Yashin in goal) it would be a travesty to overlook the best midfielder on the pitch, a true GOAT, and another capable of having a performance to grab the game by the scruff of the neck when necessary.
Comfortable dropping into a back three, or dominating the midfield, he would be a key part of stopping an opposition threat here.
Hand picking a defense to shut up shop, Don Elias, McGrath, Rijkaard, with Yashin in goal, and two all round midfielders, who are some of the best of all time from their home countries, in Pirri and Van Hanegem.
If we score first, we can see this game out and exploit the opposition attacking with counter attacks with pace and playmaking from deep.
If we concede first, we have the ability to stretch play with a pair of attacking full backs, three all round fantastic midfielders, and pace and trickery up top. All against a defense that isn't set up to keep a clean sheet.
Comfortable dropping into a back three, or dominating the midfield, he would be a key part of stopping an opposition threat here.
Hand picking a defense to shut up shop, Don Elias, McGrath, Rijkaard, with Yashin in goal, and two all round midfielders, who are some of the best of all time from their home countries, in Pirri and Van Hanegem.
If we score first, we can see this game out and exploit the opposition attacking with counter attacks with pace and playmaking from deep.
If we concede first, we have the ability to stretch play with a pair of attacking full backs, three all round fantastic midfielders, and pace and trickery up top. All against a defense that isn't set up to keep a clean sheet.
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I would also have gone for a diamond like this, Baggio as the deeper support stiker peeling to the left and then a pure #9 next to him - with Kopa pulling the strings from offensive midfield.
I just think there were better #9's available other than Eto'o - without looking too much into it someone like Kocsis could have been a tough, physical foil for the technical players in behind and would have been a great target for the crosses of Brehme and Cafu. The former in particular had an excellent delivery.
It's just my opinion on Eto'o however, I'm sure plenty disagree when it comes to both him and Busquets.
Yeah he's comfortable probing around the back line. The benefit of the front three is that they aren't "stuck" playing in one role.
With their flexibility and ability, we see this as a general example of how they would work.
That's Shevchenko (Eto'o) scoring from Rui Costa's (Kopa's) through ball. Rivaldo (Baggio) is supporting the attack as Costa (Kopa) drops deeper
The No. 9 role was by far the one we debated most actually - Kocsis, Seeler and Charles were seriously considered, but in the end we felt Eto'o's pace was most important for the system. Also, his proven ability in one centre forward systems, his versatility in working the flanks and his workrate.
On the diamond vs the Christmas Tree - I think there's a large overlap between the two systems, and we always aimed to have one of the AMs edging more towards the second striker side of the spectrum (Baggio) with Kopa veering more towards the playmaker side. I pulled a GIF earlier of Ancelotti's Milan with Rui Costa and Rivaldo as the AMs that I thought illustrated quite nicely how I see the Christmas Tree working:
Rui Costa (Kopa) dropping deep to create, Rivaldo (Baggio) clearly in the second striker role to the left, and Shevchenko (Eto'o) running in behind:
^ The other amigo beat me to the punch
That's exactly what won't happen here because of my fast centre backsYeah he's comfortable probing around the back line. The benefit of the front three is that they aren't "stuck" playing in one role.
With their flexibility and ability, we see this as a general example of how they would work.
That's Shevchenko (Eto'o) scoring from Rui Costa's (Kopa's) through ball. Rivaldo (Baggio) is supporting the attack as Costa (Kopa) drops deeper
I love Rijkaard myself, but he isn't the best midfielder on the pitch, it's a coin toss between him and Falcão with Netzer and Van Hanegem being closeWhile both McGrath and Don Elias are capable of putting up monster games to shit out the opposition (plus Yashin in goal) it would be a travesty to overlook the best midfielder on the pitch, a true GOAT, and another capable of having a performance to grab the game by the scruff of the neck when necessary.
Comfortable dropping into a back three, or dominating the midfield, he would be a key part of stopping an opposition threat here.
Hand picking a defense to shut up shop, Don Elias, McGrath, Rijkaard, with Yashin in goal, and two all round midfielders, who are some of the best of all time from their home countries, in Pirri and Van Hanegem.
If we score first, we can see this game out and exploit the opposition attacking with counter attacks with pace and playmaking from deep.
If we concede first, we have the ability to stretch play with a pair of attacking full backs, three all round fantastic midfielders, and pace and trickery up top. All against a defense that isn't set up to keep a clean sheet.
Good stuff so far lads.
Let's not overlook another genius here, Kalle Rummenigge who will be attacking from his preferred inside right position. 2 Ballon D'Ors in a row - he certainly can challenge Baggio for the second best attacker spot.
Vidic's most important weakness was Eto'O's main strength. Here we have two of the fastest CB ever to play the game - he won't be able to do his usual business here
In the roles and set ups for both teams, Rijkaard is set up for a monstrous game. Falcao, as good as he was, isn't. Plus Rijkaard frees up both Van Hanegem and Pirri, to influence the game.
Just because they're quick, doesn't mean a pacey attacker is suddenly nullified. Unless they're running side by side all game, you aren't taking into account any runs made by Eto'o across the back line, in between defenders, quick breaks in transition. Just because defenders are fast, doesn't mean they won't ever be scored on by a quick striker, especially when our attackers are as intelligent as they are.
What part of Vidic being slow caused this goal to happen? He wasn't burned for pace, etoo's movement created space for himself, the pass into feet set him on goal, then he cut back and scored. Intelligent play to create something for himself around goal.
Apologies for any painful memories this may stir up for anyone
Voted harms.What part of Vidic being slow caused this goal to happen? He wasn't burned for pace, etoo's movement created space for himself, the pass into feet set him on goal, then he cut back and scored. Intelligent play to create something for himself around goal.
Apologies for any painful memories this may stir up for anyone
Is it 3 managers against one? Sorry didn't read and check whose comment is whose, just trying to understand if that's what's up
Kind of yea, though Skizzo is the official manager now
While you're here, how do you have us losing by 2 goals?
On one side you have Lahm following Baggio. That opens space for Brehme to bomb into the channel and cause havoc. Who is Busquets keeping tabs on? Kopa? Then one of Pirri or Van Hanegem will be free to dictate play from deeper. On the other flank, Cafu will be bombing down and overlapping, pulling Bossis wide, opening space for Eto'o to make runs, or for Pirri to run into from deep. There's multiple options we have from full backs, attacking mids, and strikers.
On the flip side, the greatest South American defender of all time, the greater keeper of all time, and (arguably) the greatest dm of all time are shipping multiple goals?
Went for E/S/P at the end. Very tough to pick and both teams are excellent but IMO if team E/S/P take the lead, they have the players to shut the game down. But very tough call all in all.
Highlighting certain points again:
Possession midfield:
1. Maybe built with that intention, but except for passing backwards I certainly can't see them having the ball and attacking. It is a uni-dimensional midfield which depends on passing.
2. We have a 5-3 advantage in the middle. There is just not enough space or time for him to pass around, with van Hanegem and Pirri hounding them.
3. And I still have my reservations on whether more direct players like Netzer will thrive in that set up.
High Press without fullbacks?: Where is Alves here? Is Alves contribution to that team just a post note? One of the key components in making that work and totally lacking here.
Add in all these nigglers and negative impact to his midfield will be huge.
Lahm shutting down Baggio = Simple ain't gonna happen. Baggio is not just a leftie but a complete menace in the final 3rd. Both as a individual player and in this System, i rate Baggio's effectiveness as far more than Lahm can handle. And if Lahm is on Baggio then Brehme will be free to break free. He'll link up with Baggio or van Hanegem and I have another means of attacking outlet. Let's not have the "If Brehme attacks, he'll become a defensive liability nonsense" here.
Fast CB's: - Insanely getting overrated. Figueroa is the best CB on the pitch and I disagree that Rio was better than McGrath. I'd put them on the same level.
Samuel Eto'o was the best CF of his generation as Rio is the best defender of this generation. Suddenly him becoming a monster CB and shutting down Eto'o is just mythology.
Come on, even in his prime Rio was hardly immune to getting beaten for pace at times - here he is in 2009 looking sluggish over the first few yards against Torres and then getting outmuscled:
He was an excellent CB but Eto'o is absolutely capable of stealing a yard on him like Torres did.[/quote]
Possession midfield:
1. Maybe built with that intention, but except for passing backwards I certainly can't see them having the ball and attacking. It is a uni-dimensional midfield which depends on passing.
2. We have a 5-3 advantage in the middle. There is just not enough space or time for him to pass around, with van Hanegem and Pirri hounding them.
3. And I still have my reservations on whether more direct players like Netzer will thrive in that set up.
High Press without fullbacks?: Where is Alves here? Is Alves contribution to that team just a post note? One of the key components in making that work and totally lacking here.
Add in all these nigglers and negative impact to his midfield will be huge.
Lahm shutting down Baggio = Simple ain't gonna happen. Baggio is not just a leftie but a complete menace in the final 3rd. Both as a individual player and in this System, i rate Baggio's effectiveness as far more than Lahm can handle. And if Lahm is on Baggio then Brehme will be free to break free. He'll link up with Baggio or van Hanegem and I have another means of attacking outlet. Let's not have the "If Brehme attacks, he'll become a defensive liability nonsense" here.
Fast CB's: - Insanely getting overrated. Figueroa is the best CB on the pitch and I disagree that Rio was better than McGrath. I'd put them on the same level.
Sir Alex said: said:
Roy Keane said: said:
Samuel Eto'o was the best CF of his generation as Rio is the best defender of this generation. Suddenly him becoming a monster CB and shutting down Eto'o is just mythology.
Come on, even in his prime Rio was hardly immune to getting beaten for pace at times - here he is in 2009 looking sluggish over the first few yards against Torres and then getting outmuscled:
He was an excellent CB but Eto'o is absolutely capable of stealing a yard on him like Torres did.[/quote]
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[/QUOTE]Lahm shutting down Baggio = Simple ain't gonna happen. Baggio is not just a leftie but a complete menace in the final 3rd. Both as a individual player and in this System, i rate Baggio's effectiveness as far more than Lahm can handle. And if Lahm is on Baggio then Brehme will be free to break free. He'll link up with Baggio or van Hanegem and I have another means of attacking outlet. Let's not have the "If Brehme attacks, he'll become a defensive liability nonsense" here.
Fast CB's: - Insanely getting overrated. Figueroa is the best CB on the pitch and I disagree that Rio was better than McGrath. I'd put them on the same level.
Samuel Eto'o was the best CF of his generation as Rio is the best defender of this generation. Suddenly him becoming a monster CB and shutting down Eto'o is just mythology.
Come on, even in his prime Rio was hardly immune to getting beaten for pace at times - here he is in 2009 looking sluggish over the first few yards against Torres and then getting outmuscled:
He was an excellent CB but Eto'o is absolutely capable of stealing a yard on him like Torres did.
It's Vidic' mistake in the first place - and the mistake based on the lack of pace. Here Ferdinand have Vierchowod who won't be outrun in that manner.
I'm really getting tired of a "football math" in our games where some players keeps getting ignored. To be frank I'm tired of the whole match process - it would've been better, imo, with just 2 opening posts and the other people discussing it. This draft is not like the others - we don't need to explain what calibre of a players are on the pitch, most of them are known to a relatively ignorant football fan.
His covering as a defender still wasn't able to make up the difference. You make it sound like Eto'o will never be behind the defense. That just highlights that when Eto'o makes a run, even the pace of a covering defender might not be enough.
This type of draft is the perfect kind for the discussions. Since teams are of such a high quality, the subtle tactical tweaks, or potential mismatches, are what people can get into.
Considering the majority of votes are from people who have commented, and majority of comments are from people who haven't voted...theres plenty still to talk about.
Hope this doesn't fall by the wayside. The other games all had some good discussion going, so hopefully this can still drum up some interest 
@Tuppet @Balu @Red-tiger @Donaldo @themanhimself @Mani @sajeev @Varun
And yes, I'm the guy doing fantasy drafts while the other managers are out for a few brews
@Tuppet @Balu @Red-tiger @Donaldo @themanhimself @Mani @sajeev @Varun
And yes, I'm the guy doing fantasy drafts while the other managers are out for a few brews
@RedTiger sorry for butchering it the first time
And I can't forget the draft connoisseurs, some of which have already engaged in the debate, but neglected to vote so far
@Gio @Aldo @Chesterlestreet @Joga Bonito @Theon @Annahnomoss
@Gio @Aldo @Chesterlestreet @Joga Bonito @Theon @Annahnomoss
Did you get your suitable answers to this? If not, I'll try to expand more.
On your question for Pele for harms, I'm still not sure what his exact role is. "Free central role"is rather non-committal, and doesn't really paint how it all might come together or not. Especially against the defense they are up against.
Voted long back mate.Hope this doesn't fall by the wayside. The other games all had some good discussion going, so hopefully this can still drum up some interest
@Tuppet @Balu @Red-tiger @Donaldo @themanhimself @Mani @sajeev @Varun
And yes, I'm the guy doing fantasy drafts while the other managers are out for a few brews
Would have loved to vote mate but I don't know enough about half of the players there at the very least. Won't be fair.Hope this doesn't fall by the wayside. The other games all had some good discussion going, so hopefully this can still drum up some interest
@Tuppet @Balu @Red-tiger @Donaldo @themanhimself @Mani @sajeev @Varun
And yes, I'm the guy doing fantasy drafts while the other managers are out for a few brews
OK, 1 vote difference as of now. Some final thoughts before I go to bed as this will be over byuth
I'd like to expand more on Elias Figueroa.... here's a simple extract from wiki...
I'd like to expand more on Elias Figueroa.... here's a simple extract from wiki...
The delta between Pele and Figueroa was not as big as many automatically imagine. It is Pele ffs! Every other footballer are automatically judged lesser. Sadly the reality says other wise. Not to underestimate Pele, but iif you are comparing peaks Figueroa was fairly comparable to Pele. He was in fact the Pele of defenders. Here he has the support of Rijkaaard who I personally consider as the best foil for Pele. Be it strength or pace or intelligence, Rijkaard can hold his own. Add in Figueroa, I'm a firm believer my team can handle his attack.