"Blackface" Discussion

4bars

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Thats why I said all depictions i've seen are in that way, I wasn't saying those were the only depictions.



Diety worship is different to blackfacing - the offence that comes with blackface isn't that you are covering yourself in black paint - it's that, that black paint is meant to represent how a black person looks which is where the mocking, exaggeration and stereotyping comes into it.
So what you're referring to wouldn't be regarded as blackface.



The KKK isn't offensive because they wear white hoods, they're offensive because they lynched and hunted black people like animals - they just happened to do so while choosing white hoods as their uniform.
It doesn't mean you shouldn't wear that white uniform at all - it just means you're likely to get confused with the KKK, but as long as you're not doing anything harmful it shouldn't be a reason to stop. Similar to how the swastika originated in Indian sanskrit before the Nazis got involved.
This is different to blackface because blackface has only existed with racism at its origin - and like someone said earlier, tension & opposition to blackface has always existed, it just wasn't visible because black people didn't have the power to voice their concerns, whereas now with things like social media these opinions can't be ignored & silenced anymore.

Calling something that's racist, racist is valid - and it doesn't necessarily mean thats it forever. I understand the first reaction to something like that is to be defensive, but really it's an opportunity to learn. Choosing to continue to offend for the sake of ego/pride or being angrier at being called racist, rather than the actual racism that's taken place isn't the right way to go about things (not saying thats what you're doing, i'm just speaking generally because a few in this thread seem to not understand this)
So Basically you are saying that context matters. IMO blackfacing in Spain matters too, and no, blackfacing in Spain has no racist origins because there was no black people once it started and it didn't depict black people in a inferior way it had been simply a religious celebration where an important character and his followers came from a black skinned country and they were equally important to the other wise man of white skin and his white skinned followers. Now there is no excuse, as having black people means that we don't count on them to be in our society, so maintaining it, would be racist.

And yes, I agree on that being offended when told that is racist is not ok and is a way to learn from it. And here I am. But not everybody has a positive attitude if the first comment is telling them " you are a fecking racist" coming from a person that doesn't know anything from the spanish tradition pretending of them to know your racist tradition and telling them to change it for that reason and not for our own reasons, that are different. I think things being told constructively and trying to understand why people do that FIRST, would help more. And the clue that dozens of people blackfaced in front thousands of people accepting it on broad day light (Unthinkable in US) should give a hint that something different is going on and not that everybody is a racist in Spain
 

villain

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So Basically you are saying that context matters. IMO blackfacing in Spain matters too, and no, blackfacing in Spain has no racist origins because there was no black people once it started and it didn't depict black people in a inferior way it had been simply a religious celebration where an important character and his followers came from a black skinned country and they were equally important to the other wise man of white skin and his white skinned followers. Now there is no excuse, as having black people means that we don't count on them to be in our society, so maintaining it, would be racist.

And yes, I agree on that being offended when told that is racist is not ok and is a way to learn from it. And here I am. But not everybody has a positive attitude if the first comment is telling them " you are a fecking racist" coming from a person that doesn't know anything from the spanish tradition pretending of them to know your racist tradition and telling them to change it for that reason and not for our own reasons, that are different. I think things being told constructively and trying to understand why people do that FIRST, would help more. And the clue that dozens of people blackfaced in front thousands of people accepting it on broad day light (Unthinkable in US) should give a hint that something different is going on and not that everybody is a racist in Spain
Spain isn't the only society/culture to represent the 3 kings/Baltasar. Yet it's one of the few that resort to blackfacing as part of it - I was raised Catholic and black face was never part of the ceremony.
Just because there were no black people in Spain doesn't mean blackfacing had no racist origins, especially considering the history of Spain from the Moors to colonialism - which dates back to the 15th/16th century - so it's not like these figures were created with the Spanish having no exposure to black people, and it happens to be a coincidence and therefore not offensive. It was still done deliberately. If anything, the lack of black people in Spanish society probably led to the dehumanisation/alienness of black people to ordinary Spaniards, so depicting them in blackface wouldn't be an issue - that's just an assumption because blackface is rooted in black people being considered as 'other' and therefore dehumanised.
It doesn't really matter, I don't care what Spanish people were doing 400 years ago - i'm simply saying that continuing the tradition by using blackface, rather than either removing the blackface element or using actual black people - is racist, and I think that's fair because you can't claim ignorance at this point.
In my experience, if someone is racist it doesn't matter if you speak to them nicely and calmly - they're not dumb and they know what they're doing.
Someone who truly wants to understand, learn and change their behaviour is receptive and emphatic even if you call them racist, because they realise that centring their feelings above the offence they've caused isn't the right approach. So anyone who gets hung up on being called racist, rather than the actual racism still isn't the right way to approach things.
Thousands of people doing it in broad daylight doesn't make the ceremony any less racist either, it just means it's been normalised - you could go through dozens of actions that were normalised in various societies across the world despite their egregious nature - note i'm not calling the people racist. Also just because it's been normalised doesn't mean it can't be criticised.
 

fishfingers15

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YESHHHHH, We'll GOOO for it.
Thats why I said all depictions i've seen are in that way, I wasn't saying those were the only depictions.



Diety worship is different to blackfacing - the offence that comes with blackface isn't that you are covering yourself in black paint - it's that, that black paint is meant to represent how a black person looks which is where the mocking, exaggeration and stereotyping comes into it.
So what you're referring to wouldn't be regarded as blackface.
Agreed, and that's something I didn't know when I started posting on this topic. That blackfacing is not just applying paint but imitating a black person.
 

RochaRoja

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Yeah this is why I’m hesitant to call everyone who does it a cnut regardless of where they are geographically. Without social media, (which people from the US seem to forget doesn’t revolve around the US) we probably wouldn’t know about this stuff, so I think you have to be a bit more patient when people don’t see stuff the same way you do. Maybe that’s controversial, I don’t know.
Yeah, the Spanish cultural history of blackface is completely different to the US and UK. Blacking up as Balthazar isn’t intended to mock or dehumanise black people like minstrel shows were. Same thing with Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands.

However, as it is something that is considered offensive by black people around the world and everyone can see everything nowadays it’s a practice that should stop. There are plenty of dark skinned people in Spain who can represent Balthazar. The “necessity” for a white man to black up is no longer there.
 

RochaRoja

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I remember a Halloween house party we had with a group of friends back in 2013. It was at this English bloke's flat who lived here in Germany at the time. His best mate is a black American who was staying with him at the time. The English guy dressed up as his mate with black face and some hip hop clothes. We were all cracking up and thought it was hilarious as he got his mate's mannerisms spot on as well. His mate loved it as well. It would never have occured to me that that could be considered racist in any way. And I don't mean as in weighing up the pros and cons and then deciding it wasn't. That whole idea just didn't enter anyone's mind. We were a group of like 30 international people with very diverse backgrounds who were all hanging out regularly at the time.
This literally reads like David Brent talking about his Eric Hitchmo impression.
 

fergieisold

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Yeah, the Spanish cultural history of blackface is completely different to the US and UK. Blacking up as Balthazar isn’t intended to mock or dehumanise black people like minstrel shows were. Same thing with Zwarte Piet in the Netherlands.

However, as it is something that is considered offensive by black people around the world and everyone can see everything nowadays it’s a practice that should stop. There are plenty of dark skinned people in Spain who can represent Balthazar. The “necessity” for a white man to black up is no longer there.
I think this is where I differ in opinion to many on these kind of things. You mention how it is not intended to cause offence but because it does cause offence to some black people it should stop. I just don't draw this conclusion. The stats also show black people are not universally offended by blacking up (a poll on halloween costumes from yougov). The majority did think it was unacceptable, but about 1/4 thought it was acceptable and adding in the don't knows it was closer to 1/2 vs unacceptable.
 

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I think this is where I differ in opinion to many on these kind of things. You mention how it is not intended to cause offence but because it does cause offence to some black people it should stop. I just don't draw this conclusion. The stats also show black people are not universally offended by blacking up (a poll on halloween costumes from yougov). The majority did think it was unacceptable, but about 1/4 thought it was acceptable and adding in the don't knows it was closer to 1/2 vs unacceptable.
Do you have a source or link
for that poll?
 

psychdelicblues

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I think this is where I differ in opinion to many on these kind of things. You mention how it is not intended to cause offence but because it does cause offence to some black people it should stop. I just don't draw this conclusion. The stats also show black people are not universally offended by blacking up (a poll on halloween costumes from yougov). The majority did think it was unacceptable, but about 1/4 thought it was acceptable and adding in the don't knows it was closer to 1/2 vs unacceptable.
Do you have a source or link
for that poll?


68%(more than 2/3) of black people in that poll that you posted think it's unacceptable, yet you have gleaned from that poll that it is nearer 50/50, or am i missing something?
 

4bars

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I think this is where I differ in opinion to many on these kind of things. You mention how it is not intended to cause offence but because it does cause offence to some black people it should stop. I just don't draw this conclusion. The stats also show black people are not universally offended by blacking up (a poll on halloween costumes from yougov). The majority did think it was unacceptable, but about 1/4 thought it was acceptable and adding in the don't knows it was closer to 1/2 vs unacceptable.
Even so, I don't know why a poll made in US has any relevance on what is done in Spain. I think should concern the black people of the towns/region/country what is happening according to the local culture/history/context
 

4bars

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Spain isn't the only society/culture to represent the 3 kings/Baltasar. Yet it's one of the few that resort to blackfacing as part of it - I was raised Catholic and black face was never part of the ceremony.
Just because there were no black people in Spain doesn't mean blackfacing had no racist origins, especially considering the history of Spain from the Moors to colonialism - which dates back to the 15th/16th century - so it's not like these figures were created with the Spanish having no exposure to black people, and it happens to be a coincidence and therefore not offensive. It was still done deliberately. If anything, the lack of black people in Spanish society probably led to the dehumanisation/alienness of black people to ordinary Spaniards, so depicting them in blackface wouldn't be an issue - that's just an assumption because blackface is rooted in black people being considered as 'other' and therefore dehumanised.
It doesn't really matter, I don't care what Spanish people were doing 400 years ago - i'm simply saying that continuing the tradition by using blackface, rather than either removing the blackface element or using actual black people - is racist, and I think that's fair because you can't claim ignorance at this point.
In my experience, if someone is racist it doesn't matter if you speak to them nicely and calmly - they're not dumb and they know what they're doing.
Someone who truly wants to understand, learn and change their behaviour is receptive and emphatic even if you call them racist, because they realise that centring their feelings above the offence they've caused isn't the right approach. So anyone who gets hung up on being called racist, rather than the actual racism still isn't the right way to approach things.
Thousands of people doing it in broad daylight doesn't make the ceremony any less racist either, it just means it's been normalised - you could go through dozens of actions that were normalised in various societies across the world despite their egregious nature - note i'm not calling the people racist. Also just because it's been normalised doesn't mean it can't be criticised.

Again, What it happens to your place, has nothing to do what it happens on another place with different historical reasons and context and different flux and condition of migrations. Again is a mater of UScentrism. Is the same discussion with Krishna. Some are blue, some are black and glittery and what you have seen in your life it doesn't mean that will be seen in another part of the earth. Is quite normal not having a blackfaced Balthazar in US as per US history, but that history is different than the rest of the world.

And just because you say: "Just because there were no black people in Spain doesn't mean blackfacing had no racist origins" is racist. I assure is not racist but just a biblical depiction that goes before the moors

Besides, the big majority of the moors are not black and way closer to the spanish ethnia than black or northern european caucasian. Specially because they spend 800 years in Spain (more than what is considered the starting of the spanish country) and lots of them stayed in the peninsula further on mingling. I do get confused with moroccan, turkish, israeli, middle eastern and never guess I am spanish and my genealogical tree goes 300 years in spain all family branches

Is impossible to be racist (you can be xenophobic) with someone that is basically the same as you. So no, black people had been a rarity till the 90s in Spain

I don't claim ignorance to justify it in any moment, I expose you the spanish facts that I know waaaay more than you and has nothing to do with you culture but mine. If the people had/have no intend to be racist and till now were no people that could feel insulted because of the lack of them, it can't have racist origins and NOW we are revising to not insult our black people fellow countryman and acting according with it and it will take a process, not only of changing it, but change the mentality specially of the old ones.

As you claim understanding of non racist people and I absolutely understand that blackfacing is racist in US and I fully support that people don't do it. And at the same time I understand that NOW, blackfacing balthazar is racist because our society changed adding another race and this practice should be vanished, I ask you as well understanding that is not the same, and to trust me it has no racist origins and to understand as well that will need a process (that you already said in the past that you understand that part) and specially don't tell that a whole society had been racist all this years. Is quite annoying when you know your context and your history and know it has no racist intends, that someone comes and tells you that you are and know nothing because in my country is like this and like that and you should know better.

And yes, I understand the normalization of what is racist, homophobic and misogynist as it can be found in our language, acts and many other behaviors every day even without noticing. I fight to strip those every day, believe me. But you are biased by your history, culture, and suffering in your country and can't see the differences that I am telling you and judging under the bar of your history and context.

I remind it. Balthazar has equally importance and rang than the other 2 white kings. Plain symmetry
 

4bars

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But we are over and over to the same

In my opinion:

Blackfacing is wrong in US? Yes (based on all that I learnt in this thread)
Blackfacing in wrong in Spain nowadays? Yes

One action can be racist in one place and no in another? Absolutely yes. Depends on the context/history/culture. And that will be determined by the culture that can feel insulted (not for the one allegedly insulting) in the country where is hapenning. And is not always a matter of yes or no. There are greys and explanations on when, how, where.

And I stop because we will not agree with some
 

UnrelatedPsuedo

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If Blackface = Bad and unacceptable
And Adding fake tan to fancy dress as Ricky Martin is acceptable....

How many Decades of Michael Jackson is appropriate to go to fancy dress as, as a white guy?

Jackson 5 is obviously out.
2009 Jackson is obviously in.

I reckon earlier than Bad and you’re on thin ice.
Of course I’m kidding
 

fergieisold

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68%(more than 2/3) of black people in that poll that you posted think it's unacceptable, yet you have gleaned from that poll that it is nearer 50/50, or am i missing something?
No I did state the majority, I then said if you add the don't knows it is closer to 50/50. The point I'm trying to make is the topic is more complex than 'it's racist, that's the end of it'. I've just noticed I think I've posted a 2013 study, pretty sure the one I saw originally was 2015 and the 'acceptable' from race black people was 27%. Could be wrong though.

You could add other options here. Is blacking up to emphasise racial features such as big lips acceptable. Is blacking up as Mr T for fancy dress acceptable etc etc. Some in my eyes racist, other are not. All on a spectrum for me anyway.
 

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Wibble

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Kinell. How hard is it?

Don't dress up as another race especially if you are white as we have oppressed and discriminated against almost all of humanity. There are lots of other fancy dress options.
 

villain

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Again, What it happens to your place, has nothing to do what it happens on another place with different historical reasons and context and different flux and condition of migrations. Again is a mater of UScentrism. Is the same discussion with Krishna. Some are blue, some are black and glittery and what you have seen in your life it doesn't mean that will be seen in another part of the earth. Is quite normal not having a blackfaced Balthazar in US as per US history, but that history is different than the rest of the world.

And just because you say: "Just because there were no black people in Spain doesn't mean blackfacing had no racist origins" is racist. I assure is not racist but just a biblical depiction that goes before the moors

Besides, the big majority of the moors are not black and way closer to the spanish ethnia than black or northern european caucasian. Specially because they spend 800 years in Spain (more than what is considered the starting of the spanish country) and lots of them stayed in the peninsula further on mingling. I do get confused with moroccan, turkish, israeli, middle eastern and never guess I am spanish and my genealogical tree goes 300 years in spain all family branches

Is impossible to be racist (you can be xenophobic) with someone that is basically the same as you. So no, black people had been a rarity till the 90s in Spain

I don't claim ignorance to justify it in any moment, I expose you the spanish facts that I know waaaay more than you and has nothing to do with you culture but mine. If the people had/have no intend to be racist and till now were no people that could feel insulted because of the lack of them, it can't have racist origins and NOW we are revising to not insult our black people fellow countryman and acting according with it and it will take a process, not only of changing it, but change the mentality specially of the old ones.

As you claim understanding of non racist people and I absolutely understand that blackfacing is racist in US and I fully support that people don't do it. And at the same time I understand that NOW, blackfacing balthazar is racist because our society changed adding another race and this practice should be vanished, I ask you as well understanding that is not the same, and to trust me it has no racist origins and to understand as well that will need a process (that you already said in the past that you understand that part) and specially don't tell that a whole society had been racist all this years. Is quite annoying when you know your context and your history and know it has no racist intends, that someone comes and tells you that you are and know nothing because in my country is like this and like that and you should know better.

And yes, I understand the normalization of what is racist, homophobic and misogynist as it can be found in our language, acts and many other behaviors every day even without noticing. I fight to strip those every day, believe me. But you are biased by your history, culture, and suffering in your country and can't see the differences that I am telling you and judging under the bar of your history and context.

I remind it. Balthazar has equally importance and rang than the other 2 white kings. Plain symmetry
I'm not really understanding what you're arguing for here - I've already said that I don't have any issue with what Spain were doing 400 years ago that's not what mine or anybody's issue with blackfacing in 2019 is. The only reason the topic was brought up was because culture & tradition was used as a defence to continue to blackface - I said that it shouldn't be for a myriad of reasons.
Again, in 2019 using the pretence of culture as a reason to blackface doesn't make sense - 400 years ago sure, but now everybody either 1 - knows and understands the harmful affects of blackface and therefore doesn't do it, 2 - doesn't know and has the opportunity to learn and therefore stop, or 3 - chooses to blackface.
There's no other position to have on the subject.

Now if you feel as though i've insulted Spanish culture, I apologise for that and I can understand if you feel defensive about that, that wasn't my intention.
What i'm not going to do is go back and forth about whether or not Spanish culture was racist 400 years ago, your family tree, or the population make up of Spain.

I think we both agree that using blackface now is wrong, and shouldn't continue and that's really the only discussion to be hand in this thread on the subject.
 

4bars

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I'm not really understanding what you're arguing for here - I've already said that I don't have any issue with what Spain were doing 400 years ago that's not what mine or anybody's issue with blackfacing in 2019 is. The only reason the topic was brought up was because culture & tradition was used as a defence to continue to blackface - I said that it shouldn't be for a myriad of reasons.
Again, in 2019 using the pretence of culture as a reason to blackface doesn't make sense - 400 years ago sure, but now everybody either 1 - knows and understands the harmful affects of blackface and therefore doesn't do it, 2 - doesn't know and has the opportunity to learn and therefore stop, or 3 - chooses to blackface.
There's no other position to have on the subject.

Now if you feel as though i've insulted Spanish culture, I apologise for that and I can understand if you feel defensive about that, that wasn't my intention.
What i'm not going to do is go back and forth about whether or not Spanish culture was racist 400 years ago, your family tree, or the population make up of Spain.

I think we both agree that using blackface now is wrong, and shouldn't continue and that's really the only discussion to be hand in this thread on the subject.
No, is not that I feel I insult my culture. A harmful culture it worth to be insulted. what I don't find correct is calling racist to an entire population for something that was not racist. that is racist now and trying to make amends according to the new times and pulling your hairs off based in your culture and that everybody should act according to your culture

And yes, we both agree in the outcome, but not the manners
 

stevoc

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When parody becomes real life.








[ link ]
Surely nobody is that stupid? A quick Google image search would have shown him that coal miners get covered in soot by the end of a working day.

This has to be right up there with that time Zoe Saldana got accused of doing blackface while playing Nina Simone.
 

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Godfrey Elwick is a fake account, designed to troll. I have no idea about the second one but it's probably a troll article.
Agreed. Interesting though that we've reached a point where we're not sure.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got a load of black shoe polish to get rid of before the internet arrives and I get done for culturally appropriating my shoes
 

roseguy64

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Surely nobody is that stupid? A quick Google image search would have shown him that coal miners get covered in soot by the end of a working day.

This has to be right up there with that time Zoe Saldana got accused of doing blackface while playing Nina Simone.
People said she was doing blackface or was it about colourism and her not being the right shade to play the role?
 

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People said she was doing blackface or was it about colourism and her not being the right shade to play the role?
Either one is mental.

It’s obviously wrong to black up if you want to go to a fancy dress party as Stevie Wonder, right? Just the shades, a wig and a piano should do it. So why does getting the exact shade of black matter when it’s a film portrayal? Surely she should still be able to play the role.
 

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Either one is mental.

It’s obviously wrong to black up if you want to go to a fancy dress party as Stevie Wonder, right? Just the shades, a wig and a piano should do it. So why does getting the exact shade of black matter when it’s a film portrayal? Surely she should still be able to play the role.
There's an issue in black communities all over about lighter shades being preferred so the film role was part of that.
 

2 man midfield

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There's an issue in black communities all over about lighter shades being preferred so the film role was part of that.
What’s the issue though? If that’s the actress they wanted to play the role, why does her skin colour have anything to do with it?
 

stevoc

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People said she was doing blackface or was it about colourism and her not being the right shade to play the role?
I'm sure she probably received criticism for both, but if i remember correctly the articles i read at the time referenced people saying it was a case of blackface because she darkened her skin and wore a prosthetic on her nose.

Can't remember if this is one of the articles i read but it's similar to the ones i remember.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2016/mar/02/zoe-saldana-nina-simone-black-makeup-film-trailer
 

roseguy64

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Yeah. There's something about Zendaya rejecting roles meant for darker skinned women and going after "white" roles. Will verify if it's just something said on the internet or actual quotes.

There was also an issue I saw with the recent actress cast to play Storm in the Apocalypse movie. She's apparently being replaced and people are happier now because it's a rumour of a darker skinned actress getting the role.
 

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