Blasphemy.. Sacrilege! Can the SAF era be improved upon in some ways?

[Mersault]

I'll qualify this first. I love Fergie. An honest legend. I don't think another manager will replicate the successes he's had nor the longevity.

I wonder though if another manager (possibly Van Gaal) could improve upon SAF's record in Europe. And I wonder if another manager (possibly Van Gaal) can produce, season after season, a better brand of football.

The discussion on Keane prompted this. I genuinely think we failed to capitalise on our progression around '99 which Keane has spoken of quite a few times. Maybe we didn't have to, the Prem wasn't as competitive as it is now, we didn't have rivals of the same quality, but it showed in Europe. I remember SAF talking about Barca a few years ago as the benchmark. What we should aim for. But I cannot remember us ever being that dominant a team, home and in Europe, always going in as favorites, being relentless and merciless. Does Van Gaal have enough left of his career to revolutionise the club in this way (from the youths upwards)?

Discuss or ridicule.

 

[Whiteside1985]

Not to be ridiculed at all.
Good football at the top level in Europe is what we should aspire to.
SAF himself has admitted the team should have won more European cups.

Is LVG the man to do it? Time will tell.

 

[Skills]

I don't know, probably not unless someone can win multiple Premier League titles and multiple European Cups in quick succession.

That period from 06/07 to 10/11 was a pretty immense period only overshadowed by the Champions League final losses to arguably the greatest club side of all time.

4 League titles
1 Champions League title
2 League Cups
2 more Champions League finals

All within 5 years.

 

[ManUArfa]

Agree, OP. What's wrong with wanting more? Why do always have to assume that our levels of success will never be the same again?

Yes SAF was almost superhuman in how he got so much out of his players and we should be eternally grateful for how he built this club to be the biggest in the world. However, if we're now able to pay Real Madrid and Barcelona level transfer fees then why shouldn't we expect a commensurate return on the investment...

 

[Earthquake]

Win more in Europe would be an improvement, of course. We should have won more as is.

Better brand of football? That's surely taste. At our best, Sir Alex's ruthless counter attacking football was a sight to behold. I've always preferred styles in that vein to possession and tiki taka. LvG has been far more direct than I expected too, which is pleasing. Possession with purpose(IIRC an Ajax philosophy).

 

[LeChuck]

We should have won one more at least, but we came up against one of the greatest sides in football history twice. If it was any other team, we would have had one extra CL (at least).

 

[Lu Tze]

Should have won more CL's. Got taken to school tactically a few times by Jose and Pep. Quality of our football died a death around 2012ish. Poor transfer business for the last 4/5 years.

But he's still the greatest manager of all time.

 

[Dumbat12]

Should have won more CL's. Got taken to school tactically a few times by Jose and Pep. Quality of our football died a death around 2012ish. Poor transfer business for the last 4/5 years.

But he's still the greatest manager of all time.

To be fair, that Barcelona side was unbeatable. We were just unlucky to have collided with them in two CL finals. If it wasn't for that damn Messi...

 

[thepolice123]

Between the period of 00-07, tbe season we should have won was 02-03. However it was also a very special year for the underdogs in the CL and the beginning of the Mourinho legend, so I don't feel that agreived now after seeing that we probably couldn't have escaped the inevitable giant-slaying.

The rest of the seasons we were just meh. There's an obvious gap in class compared to the likes of Milan and Real who each defeated us twice in the knockout and then went on to win the CL. They won a combined four CLs in that period.

 

[Skills]

To be fair, that Barcelona side was unbeatable. We were just unlucky to have collided with them in two CL finals. If it wasn't for that damn Messi...

We were also fecked over by injuries towards the end of 06/07 and generally pretty gassed after probably our most intense league title win. Rio and Vidic who were the backbone of the 3 finals we made in the following 4 years, both missed the first leg at Old Trafford and Rio didn't play at San Siro. Vidic I think was also just back from injury. A bit of luck there with injuries and I think it could've been a different story.

 

[The Law of Denis]

From 2006 to 2013 if Sir Alex did not win the league he was off by one point or by goal difference.

In terms of the league, this is immense. I would be shocked if anyone could replicate his form.

I think the most severely lacking aspect of Sir Alex's reign is that we won only one FA cup since the turn of the millennium.

Can we improve in the CL ? yes, but only a two clubs have won it more than twice since the format changed in 2002: Real Madrid and Barcelona.

 

[DWelbz19]

That period of 06-11 is some of the best stuff any manager has done. Yeah, we maybe could've done with an extra CL, but Barcelona were an absolute force. I mean, we were an amazing team at the time, but they were a galaxy ahead. The decline after that... I guess SAF could've done better.

 

[SteveW]

I'd be delighted if we got anywhere close to the SAF era football. The vast majority of it was great and 4th place was never a target.

 

[thepolice123]

If Rafael didn't get sent of against Bayern in 2010, we could have went into the CL finals for 4 years consecutive. Bayern played Lyon in the semis whom I've no doubt that we would have beaten comfortably as well. Just imagine how fecking ridiculous that would have been.

 

[Patchbeard]

To be fair to SAF, 97-00 and 2008-11 were two periods where we were far and away the best English side, but the problem is there will always be one or two teams in their peak from the continent too which makes it near impossible to dominate Europe. In the late 90s it was Juventus and Real Madrid, then Barcelona in 2008-11. We reached 4 finals, Wenger's Arsenal have only reached 1 despite having some great domestic success and probably being in almost as many Champions League's as SAF (considering we weren't in it regularly until 96/97).

 

[united_99]

Apart from focusing on a good squad than a great first team at times (which could have won us 1-2 more CLs, but at the same time maybe 1-2 less PLs), and neglecting youth and good football in his last couple of years, I have no regrets at all.
The way he kept us at the top even after Roman and the Abu Dhabi invasion, the fact that we never finished outside of top 3 in the PL and the fact that since 2006/07 till his retirement we either won the league or lost it with just 1 point difference at the most while playing good stuff for most of the years makes his achievements unique in Europe's top leagues.

Oh and no, LvG isn't the one to win us trophy after trophy, he wins trophies, but he is not a trophy machine like SAF, Mourinho, Guardiola (you could even call Simeone a tropy machine, albeit not at the same level (yet)).
What LvG will (hopefully) do is leaving foundations behind on which the next manager(s) can base their/our successes!

 

[Earthquake]

There was a quote from a commentator, when we won the 19th, "to win this, you've done something special, to win it three times in a row, you are special".

Says it all, league wise.

I'd be delighted if we got anywhere close to the SAF era football. The vast majority of it was great and 4th place was never a target.

He's have considered 4th a failure, now we're hoping to reach it, maybe. Two freaking years later.

I'd love to know what all those "SAF out" wankers think of our post SAF run.

 

[Sweet Square]

In terms of winning trophies then no I don't think it can be improved. But something similar to the Busby Babes. If we were ever to win the league or Europe with a team packed full of youth players(Although yesterday had it's fair share as well) and that was playing great attacking football then it would be something as special as the Fergie years.

 

[jem]

I don't know, probably not unless someone can win multiple Premier League titles and multiple European Cups in quick succession.

That period from 06/07 to 10/11 was a pretty immense period only overshadowed by the Champions League final losses to arguably the greatest club side of all time.

4 League titles
1 Champions League title
2 League Cups
2 more Champions League finals

All within 5 years.

It always amazes me that that period of dominance came after the relatively dire 2002-5 period, a period during which we were overshadowed by first Arsenal, then by Chelsea. Of course Ronaldo played a major role, but we won two more after he left. Immense stuff from Fergie; couple with our dominance in the 90's, I can't imagine anyone improving on our domestic success under Fergie. In Europe, there is scope for improvement.

 

[Dante]

Fergie is up there with Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan and Saladin.

 

[Snow]

If Rafael didn't get sent of against Bayern in 2010, we could have went into the CL finals for 4 years consecutive. Bayern played Lyon in the semis whom I've no doubt that we would have beaten comfortably as well. Just imagine how fecking ridiculous that would have been.

Hate this. Same poor argument as saying we lost 5-3 to Leicester because ref gave them a penalty. Fact is, the two goals we conceded after the sending off were extremely poor. A free kick that went through a wall and loss of possession next to your own penalty area. Conceding that goal at youth level is amateurish. It's far too simplistic to blame it on a sending off.

 

[Hal9000]

It always amazes me that that period of dominance came after the relatively dire 2002-5 period, a period during which we were overshadowed by first Arsenal, then by Chelsea. Of course Ronaldo played a major role, but we won two more after he left. Immense stuff from Fergie; couple with our dominance in the 90's, I can't imagine anyone improving on our domestic success under Fergie. In Europe, there is scope for improvement.

To think also that some poor decisions probably stopped us reaching more CL finals. We had the beating of Mourinho's Real Madrid and i think the form we were in, we would of reached the final there. Same as when we got knocked out by Bayern, we had them beat and i think we proved we were better than Mourinho's Inter side that one it that year.

For me, it's a shame we did not win more FA Cups either. Few great players for us next won it with us and probably should of.

 

[Snow]

Fergie is up there with Alexander the Great, Genghis Khan and Saladin.

Could you have chosen three historical greats that were further away from monogamy?

 

[NinjaZombie]

We should have won more CLs. Definitely that. The failures of the two finals against Barcelona, one of which Ferguson responded by buying Ashley Young, is a shame.

But what gets my grind the most was the 2002 CL semi final vs Leverkusen. We scored first away in the second leg (Keane, legend), only to throw it away and then watch the formality that was Real vs Leverkusen at Hampden Park.

 

[Jayvin]

To be fair, that Barcelona side was unbeatable. We were just unlucky to have collided with them in two CL finals. If it wasn't for that damn Messi...

We should have won in 2009, if Park or Ronaldo had taken one of those early chances it think it would have been very different. Eto'o's goal was a sickener

 

[Jayvin]

Has any other manager ever won 3 consecutive league titles in England? Pretty amazing that Fergie did it twice, while the likes of Wenger couldn't even retain it once.

 

[Snow]

Has any other manager ever won 3 consecutive league titles in England? Pretty amazing that Fergie did it twice, while the likes of Wenger couldn't even retain it once.

Herbert Chapman (Huddersfield 1923-26). Probably would have done so again with Arsenal hadn't he died. They managed to win the third in a row without him in 1935.

Paisley had two in a row and then retired. Liverpool won the third time in a row without him in 1984.

 

[Jayvin]

Herbert Chapman (Huddersfield 1923-26). Probably would have done so again with Arsenal hadn't he died. They managed to win the third in a row without him in 1935.

Paisley had two in a row and then retired. Liverpool won the third time in a row without him in 1984.

Wikipedia says Chapman won two titles with Huddersfield before joining Arsenal, they won the 3rd without him.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

After the first humiliation Fergie should have packed the midfield and hit barca on the break or keep it tight and hope for a set piece. I still can't believe he tried to go toe to toe with barca in 2 finals.

Besides this and not improving the midfield Fergie didn't really do anything wrong. To build so many successful teams in 25 years is simply remarkable.

 

[Jayvin]

After the first humiliation Fergie should have packed the midfield and hit barca on the break or keep it tight and hope for a set piece. I still can't believe he tried to go toe to toe with barca in 2 finals.

2009 was not a humiliation, IMO.

 

[Sky1981]

This thread can be improved, the TS can be improved as well

 

[Snow]

Wikipedia says Chapman won two titles with Huddersfield before joining Arsenal, they won the 3rd without him.

Right you are. He shouldn't have transferred or died then.

Imagine going from the title winning side to another one in the league and then lose 7-0 to your former club.

 

[Balu]

Hate this. Same poor argument as saying we lost 5-3 to Leicester because ref gave them a penalty. Fact is, the two goals we conceded after the sending off were extremely poor. A free kick that went through a wall and loss of possession next to your own penalty area. Conceding that goal at youth level is amateurish. It's far too simplistic to blame it on a sending off.

Only Robben scored after the sending off, which was in the return leg and that goal could have happened against 11 men just as well. United fecked up the first leg, when we scored the last minute winner after Evra's brainfart, but there was no sending off.

 

[Hal9000]

2009 was not a humiliation, IMO.

No, and it was unlucky Fletcher was suspended. He was having a stormer of a season, he was wrongly sent off against Arsenal and Anderson was played in his place. Not saying he would of won us the game, but he would of done a lot better at disrupting Barca than Anderson did.

 

[Snow]

Only Robben scored after the sending off, which was in the return leg and that goal could have happened against 11 men just as well. United fecked up the first leg, when we scored the last minute winner after Evra's brainfart, but there was no sending off.

Seems like I need to revise. The poor goals conceded were in the same game but in a different one. The away loss.

United conceded once after the sending off. And that was a volley from the edge of the box. Conceded 4 goals altogether. 3 of which were poor goals to concede, all of which happened 11 vs 11.

Add that to the fact that Rafael paid a big part in the 1-0 goal in the 2nd leg and of course it becomes obvious. It was all his fault. Makes no sense. It's just easier to blame someone that way. It's a stupid and lazy way to think.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

More European cuips, maybe we should have been more dominant in Europe and improve after 1999 win, but that's about it.
As it was said in this thread, we were great from 2007 to 2011, reaching 2 finals, winning one,m we were just unlucky to run 2 times into that great Barcelona side.
Maybe Fergie should have brought some better players after 2011, esp. with City buying large and buying good, but even with the players he had at his disposal he won 2 more PL titles and reached a CL final.


As for those ties with Bayern in 2010, we conceded poor goals in Munich after having a good result most of the game and at OT I think Olić's goal before the end of the 1st half was, if not crucial, very important for Bayern and very poor for us to concede, at the worst time..

 

[Jayvin]

As for those ties with Bayern in 2010, we conceded poor goals in Munich after having a good result most of the game and at OT I think Olić's goal before the end of the 1st half was, if not crucial, very important for Bayern and very poor for us to concede, at the worst time..

Thinking about those ties makes me hate the away goals rule. Why is a 2-1 win better than a 3-2 win? It isn't, away goals are spastic.

 

[Mali_Zeus]

Thinking about those ties makes me hate the away goals rule. Why is a 2-1 win better than a 3-2 win? It isn't, away goals are spastic.

Maybe they'll kill that rule some day, who knows.

 

[Woodzy]

I think we should have flexed our financial muscle a bit during the end of the 00's. I know it was one of our most successful periods, but I believe if we were little more aggressive with the players we brought in we could have been seen as one of the best teams ever.

We were also very unfortunate that players like Nani and Anderson went backwards instead of hitting the heights. I just think that while Chelsea, and eventually City were bringing in world class talent, we were letting the likes Ronaldo and Tevez go and bringing in squad players and youngsters that eventually led to us becoming unstuck.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

Thinking about those ties makes me hate the away goals rule. Why is a 2-1 win better than a 3-2 win? It isn't, away goals are spastic.

Maybe they'll kill that rule some day, who knows.

It makes sense, they reward the team who did the most at the opposite ground, surely that would only encourage attractive attacking football, which is what the neutrals want.