Blasphemy.. Sacrilege! Can the SAF era be improved upon in some ways?

devilish

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In terms of winning trophies then no I don't think it can be improved. But something similar to the Busby Babes. If we were ever to win the league or Europe with a team packed full of youth players(Although yesterday had it's fair share as well) and that was playing great attacking football then it would be something as special as the Fergie years.
I disagree.

I love SAF. He was a genius of epic proportions. However I never really liked his idea of going skint mode following a CL win. The treble win side would have surely won another CL if we replaced the likes of Schmeichel, Blomqvist and Johnsen with some quality players instead of erm Bosnich/Taibi, Cruyff and Silvestre. We did the same thing after the third CL win where players like Ronaldo, Scholes and Giggs were being replaced with the likes of Valencia, Young and Cleverley.
 

Blodssvik

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I honestly don't think we´re going to win many major trophies under LvG, if any. But we´ll establish ourselves as a force again. United perhaps should have won more european cups under Ferguson, but maybe we fell on the wrong side of the expected value. Tested again with the exact same teams and management we may have won 4 cups.
 

Jayvin

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It makes sense, they reward the team who did the most at the opposite ground, surely that would only encourage attractive attacking football, which is what the neutrals want.
Doesn't always work like that though. Would we have parked the bus against Barca home and away in 2008 if the away goals rule wasn't in effect? I doubt it

I'd argue that more often that not, the away goals rule encourages teams to restrict their natural attacking play in favour of parking the bus.
 

Bobcat

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I don't know, probably not unless someone can win multiple Premier League titles and multiple European Cups in quick succession.

That period from 06/07 to 10/11 was a pretty immense period only overshadowed by the Champions League final losses to arguably the greatest club side of all time.

4 League titles
1 Champions League title
2 League Cups
2 more Champions League finals

All within 5 years.
Agreed. That Barcelona side was probably the best that has ever been assembled. If he had manged to win more CL, not to mention two, it would have been an unprecedented achivement. SAF might not have been the greatest tactician, but as a motivator and team builder, he was one of the, if not THE best.

Van Gaal in undoubtedly a great manager, but i honestly don't think he will be able to emulate SAF
 

Jayvin

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I honestly don't think we´re going to win many major trophies under LvG, if any. But we´ll establish ourselves as a force again. United perhaps should have won more european cups under Ferguson, but maybe we fell on the wrong side of the expected value. Tested again with the exact same teams and management we may have won 4 cups.
I reckon we will win the league under LVG, probably not this season but before too long it will happen. Believe :D
 

Jayvin

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Agreed. That Barcelona side was probably the best that has ever been assembled. If he had manged to win more CL, not to mention two, it would have been an unprecedented achivement. SAF might not have been the greatest tactician, but as a motivator and team builder, he was one of the, if not THE best.
I wanted SAF to get 3 European Cups so badly, not ashamed to say I cried in 2011 when I saw him visibly shaking during the final. If anyone feels the same way just re-watch the 2008 shootout before Terry takes his pen, Fergie looks like he has conceded defeat, arms in his pockets, not distraught but obviously annoyed that yet ANOTHER penalty shootout has gone against him. Then Terry misses :drool:
 

Cina

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I think SAF clearly valued the league over Europe, that's obvious by the fact that we only got to CL finals in seasons we also won the league, as in, he never seemed to sacrifice doing well in the league for the sake of CL success. It always seemed more important to him, which is fair enough really, but I would have liked to see a bigger emphasis in the last few years (particularly after #19) on making us the best in Europe as opposed to his tactic which seemed to be building a big squad capable of winning the league, but hey, it's nit picking over little things really. I doubt anyone could've done better.
 

Getsme

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It makes sense, they reward the team who did the most at the opposite ground, surely that would only encourage attractive attacking football, which is what the neutrals want.
It also gives the team that plays away first a massive advantage.
 

Jayvin

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I think SAF clearly valued the league over Europe, that's obvious by the fact that we only got to CL finals in seasons we also won the league, as in, he never seemed to sacrifice doing well in the league for the sake of CL success. It always seemed more important to him, which is fair enough really, but I would have liked to see a bigger emphasis in the last few years (particularly after #19) on making us the best in Europe as opposed to his tactic which seemed to be building a big squad capable of winning the league, but hey, it's nit picking over little things really. I doubt anyone could've done better.
To be fair I think Fergie DID prioritise Europe in his last few seasons, throughout that 2007-2011 era people on here were praising him for 'finally' cracking Europe. And he did, but there is so much more luck involved in knockout comps like the CL, take his last season for example. A superb performance at the Bernabeu and on track to knock Madrid out at OT before a questionable decision effectively killed us. Same against Bayern in 2010. You can argue a real quality team would persevere and still manage the win but the margins are so fine in knockout european football.
 

Cina

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To be fair I think Fergie DID prioritise Europe in his last few seasons, throughout that 2007-2011 era people on here were praising him for 'finally' cracking Europe. And he did, but there is so much more luck involved in knockout comps like the CL, take his last season for example. A superb performance at the Bernabeu and on track to knock Madrid out at OT before a questionable decision effectively killed us. Same against Bayern in 2010. You can argue a real quality team would persevere and still manage the win but the margins are so fine in knockout european football.
I think it's the latter, not the former, no? He figured out that he needed to play a different way in Europe after the Milan result in 07 and previous failings, and finally adapted to it, and became more successful. I'm not sure I ever saw him prioritize it, not over the league anyway. Certainly he became more desperate for victory there but I still always felt the league was his top priority.
 

Jayvin

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I think it's the latter, not the former, no? He figured out that he needed to play a different way in Europe after the Milan result in 07 and previous failings, and finally adapted to it, and became more successful. I'm not sure I ever saw him prioritize it, not over the league anyway. Certainly he became more desperate for victory there but I still always felt the league was his top priority.
Yeah fair point, he did finally 'crack' Europe in terms of tactics but I guess the League was always the main goal.
 

bishblaize

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I think SAF clearly valued the league over Europe, that's obvious by the fact that we only got to CL finals in seasons we also won the league, as in, he never seemed to sacrifice doing well in the league for the sake of CL success. It always seemed more important to him, which is fair enough really, but I would have liked to see a bigger emphasis in the last few years (particularly after #19) on making us the best in Europe as opposed to his tactic which seemed to be building a big squad capable of winning the league, but hey, it's nit picking over little things really. I doubt anyone could've done better.
Personally I think its something different to a personal prioritisation by SAF. Our game in England is so different to Europe that it's very hard for anyone to build a team that will do well in the league and do well in Europe too.

The up-and-at-'em football that almost every league winner in the Prem era has played is rarely applicable in Europe, where you come up against possession savvy teams that can kill your momentum by taking control of the ball. For English teams to play well in Europe they have to approach things very differently, and not many teams can play multiple styles of play well enough to win multiple competitions.

City are finding that right now. They overwhelm teams at home in the league, but in Europe they just not able to do it, because their opponents are much happier playing the ball out from the back and are more dangerous on the counter. So they're trying to go to Plan B, and they're not as good at Plan B as they are at Plan A.
 

NessunDorma

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After the first humiliation Fergie should have packed the midfield and hit barca on the break or keep it tight and hope for a set piece. I still can't believe he tried to go toe to toe with barca in 2 finals.

Besides this and not improving the midfield Fergie didn't really do anything wrong. To build so many successful teams in 25 years is simply remarkable.
Fergie as good as says in his book that, if we'd set up in 2009 and 2011 how we did in the 2008 games, we'd have had a better chance of beating Barca.

But then goes on to say - in so many words - that the tension of trying to nick a goal and then keep it tight would have been unbearable for him, and that he'd much rather beat them by sticking to his principles of exciting, attacking football:

In each of those two European Cup finals, we might have been closer to Spain’s finest by playing more defensively, but by then I had reached the stage with Manchester United where it was no good us trying to win that way. I used those tactics to beat Barcelona in the 2008 semi-final: defended really deep; put myself through torture, put the fans through hell. I wanted a more positive outlook against them subsequently, and we were beaten partly because of that change in emphasis. If we had retreated to our box and kept the defending tight, we might have achieved the results we craved. I’m not blaming myself ; I just wish our positive approach could have produced better outcomes.
Ferguson, Alex (2013-10-24). Alex Ferguson My Autobiography (p. 264). Hodder & Stoughton. Kindle Edition.

How much of that is true, and how much is just post-defeat rationalisation, I don't know.

I always thought it odd, though, that he was as good as admitting that he thought there was a better way of trying to beat Barca than the one he employed on the night, but he eschewed it for a more 'positive outlook'.

I'm not really complaining though. They might have beaten us whatever the tactics employed, and 3 CL finals in 4 years is a phenomenal achievement in its own right.
 
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JustAFan

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One thing you rarely see discussed in these types of threads is the idea that had SAF done a few things differently we might not have won as much as we did.

Then there was a good part of the 90's where there was that rule that limited the number of foreign players you could play in a CL game. This rule if I remember correctly hamperred English sides quite a bit in the early/mid-90's. A few good teams might have had a better chance at winning the CL during that time frame.

It is difficult to see us replicating everything SAF achieved. Could a current or future manager do better in Europe? Yes. But it seems more difficult to see one matching or bettering our results in the PL.
 

Adebesi

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One thing you rarely see discussed in these types of threads is the idea that had SAF done a few things differently we might not have won as much as we did.
I dont think people think it needs saying to be honest. Its implicit whenever you say he is one of the best managers of all time, which everyone on here - even those who dont even support United - would agree with.
 

MoskvaRed

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Fergie as good as says in his book that, if we'd set up in 2009 and 2011 how we did in the 2008 games, we'd have had a better chance of beating Barca.

But then goes on to say - in so many words - that the tension of trying to nick a goal and then keep it tight would have been unbearable for him, and that he'd much rather beat them by sticking to his principles of exciting, attacking football:



Ferguson, Alex (2013-10-24). Alex Ferguson My Autobiography (p. 264). Hodder & Stoughton. Kindle Edition.

How much of that is true, and how much is just post-defeat rationalisation, I don't know.

I always thought it odd, though, that he was as good as admitting that he thought there was a better way of trying to beat Barca than the one he employed on the night, but he eschewed it for a more 'positive outlook'.

I'm not really complaining though. They might have beaten us whatever the tactics employed, and 3 CL finals in 4 years is a phenomenal achievement in its own right.
I think 2009 was understandable - we were the defending champions and that Barcelona side had not yet become the legendary side we look back on now (in fact, Rome was their launchpad). By 2011, though, we had no chance of trying to outplay them.
 

Needham

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Mourinho cold have given him a run for his money over a decade. But over two and a half? If the realized initial achievement seems head scratchingly unlikely in retrospect, what chance of it being matched?
 

Tim Henman

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If Rafael didn't get sent of against Bayern in 2010, we could have went into the CL finals for 4 years consecutive. Bayern played Lyon in the semis whom I've no doubt that we would have beaten comfortably as well. Just imagine how fecking ridiculous that would have been.
Yeah, and even 2007 if we had a better start in the second leg against Milan and our defense wasn't severely depleted, maybe it could have been 5 finals in a row.. Game of margins huh
 

Cina

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I remember that, it was just before he went out and bought Ashley Young wasnt it?

Yes, for all SAF's achievements, he will probably look back at Europe as being the slight blemish on his record. A Straight-A student who got a B for Europe.
To be fair, he did that after he tried to get Hazard.

But still, it is one of a number of signings he made in the last five to six years that emphasized that he placed more value on winning the league (building a strong squad) than he did on winning the CL (spending big money on great players).
 

Nighteyes

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Yeah, and even 2007 if we had a better start in the second leg against Milan and our defense wasn't severely depleted, maybe it could have been 5 finals in a row.. Game of margins huh
2007 was a case of our squad being on their last legs (we had a very thin squad that season) due to prioritizing the league, injury crisis at the back and Milan having the luxury to rest their entire XI before the CL games due to the match fixing scandal. Pretty much everything was against us progressing.
 

Someone

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SAF can be improved upon on a short term cycle, meaning we could go on a period of dominating football domestically and in europe while playing great football, it's possible, but long term no.

You could say that managers like mourinho, van gaal, ancelotti, pep and klopp could all in theory improve our brand of football and chances of success, but none of them knows how to sustain success the way saf did.

Fergie took the club in a difficult moment and elevated it to a successful club and we never looked back since, he knew how to build a team, how to handle transition, how to think long term, how to do it with or without money, he had a solution to every problem and most of all, he knew how to adapt to change, i'm yet to see anyone capable of doing that. Most top managers these days go to a club, win few trophies and leave or get sacked at the first signs of decline, some even get bored and change for the sake of it.
 

JustAFan

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I dont think people think it needs saying to be honest. Its implicit whenever you say he is one of the best managers of all time, which everyone on here - even those who dont even support United - would agree with.
The thing is it really goes hand in hand whenever anyone starts discussing had he done things differently that he might have won more, which has been mentioned in this thread.
 

Lennon7

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Of course winning more Champions Leagues would've been nice... I'm sure Fergie is a bit gutted about that himself. This was definitely hindered by Barcelona of course, as even though we were one of the best teams in the world during like 2007-20010, Barca were out of this world!
 

Mersault

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I've enjoyed this discussion. I agree that Barca were perhaps the most complete side ever when we were up against them, but I'd also say that despite us being unlucky on a few occasions (Madrid, Bayern, even Porto) that's the nature of that level, small margins. We were also fortunate in both our CL wins under SAF (though we did of course play with a makeshift midfield against Bayern in '99).

Through-out following United I've just always felt like we are the underdogs in Europe. And that that is at least partly down to our style of play. Some of the football we played under SAF was the most enjoyable football I've seen, but I still think possession football does not have to be dull like Spain, if a team can also break quickly, use width and offer more dynamism.

No one will match SAF's league record, of course not. But, could a Klopp take charge in the future and be with us for a decade and do better in Europe...I think so. If Van Gaal instills a new philosophy, not just in the first team, but through out the club, we've certainly got good foundations coupled with our enormous ability to attract players and pay the fees, as well as developing players (which can also be improved).
 

Oo0AahCantona

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I genuinely believe we failed with respects to europe over fergies time, Fergie knew how to build a winning mentality and delegate responsibility better than any manager ever imo. But with regards to our style of play and our ability to win in europe, you have to think we could have done better. The league wasn't as strong and we were the richest club in the world, we could have and should have been the pinnacle of football. its a huge ask and obviously isn't easy but looking at how we dominated and with our financial power we could have had the cake and eaten it to.
 

RedMilo

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Imo if the club gets anywhere near the amount of success over the last 2 decades that it did under SAF then for me this will be a bigger achievement because no-one expects us to get near that haul again. We would also have to do it with at least 2 different managers as well because LVG aint going to be here for more than 4-5 years due to his age more than anything. Ig United win half the amount of PL titles i.e. 7 and the same amount of CL i.e. 2 in the next 20 years and also Liverpool remain without a league title in that time then I for one will remain a happy fan.
 

Slartibartfast

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Without taking any thing away from Fergies genius, its hard to see that with the rise of non-supporter funded mega daddy clubs United could ever achieve the financial superiority that we enjoyed during a significant portion of his reign - so that makes the consistency and ability to acquire the best players not impossible but certainly more difficult (although some would argue fairer). Also the somewhat freak purchases of both Eric Cantona & Christiano Ronaldo together with the emergence of the class of 92 will probably also be nigh on impossible to replicate - so I would believe it would be harder than ever for for any 1 club/manager to better the Fergie Premier League era in current circumstances.

In Europe we under achieved - regardless of Barcelonas wonderful team we really should have done better given the level of domestic success - It can be argued that we will never have a better chance to dominate europe, but I agree with the earlier posters we were always the plucky underdogs when we should have been kings. Strange really that given all the recent debate about megastars & their place at United, the one time we did truly dominate and go on to win a European Cup final in 1968 we had 3 Ballon D'or winners in the same team
 

Mersault

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@Slartibartfast

One could also argue that if FFP rules come into real effect that things will be unfair, and we'll be gaining the most advantage given our revenues. Also, Cantona was a magical signing, but then we went and made another in Ronaldo, so it's not a once in a lifetime thing. In any case, I don't worry about our ability to acquire the best talent and to bringing it through the youths, but more about will the money be spent on the playing squad and will we go for a long-term vision of a positive and confident philosophy.

Who were the three Ballon D'or winners in the '68 side, Best, Charlton and who? Browsing online lead me to this, which is off topic but I enjoyed reading:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...on-interview--night-Matt-Busbys-best-man.html

John Aston interview:

John Aston can recall the details of the day he ruled Europe as if it were yesterday, from the fezes on Wembley Way to a celebration dinner featuring the Joe Loss Orchestra and the £2,000 bonus which helped him buy his first house.

'Strange because some things from last week seem like 10 years ago,' smiles Aston, but really not that strange.

It may be 43 years ago, but not every day do you eclipse George Best, Bobby Charlton and Eusebio with a man-of-the-match performance as Manchester United seize their place in history as the first English team to win the European Cup.

Born in the city a decade before the 1958 Munich air disaster and the son of a United player, it was special for Aston. He was acutely aware of the unspoken force driving Matt Busby's quest to conquer Europe.

On May 29, 1968, when it finally happened, the 20-year-old on the left wing was the star. 'Destiny, ' says Aston, the significance stirred by Saturday's Champions League final between United and Barcelona, two famous clubs back at the venue where they first won the iconic trophy.

'I always thought it was going to be our night. For me, the biggest game was the semi against Real Madrid, when we came from 3-1 behind to draw 3-3 in Madrid. Then we found out we were playing Benfica, who beat Juventus in the other semi and that was a boost. The Italians were so defensive but Benfica were similar to us.

'We'd played them in America a few weeks before and they had this wily old full back called Cavem. I thought I'd have my work cut out but they left him out and put a young lad in, a big lad (Adolfo Calisto). He was like a liner who needed a tugboat to turn.

'It suited me down to the ground; it took a bit of pressure off the more glamorous stars.'It was the greatest game I ever played because of the importance.'




In black and white: The Manchester United team with the 1968 European Cup

Step inside Aston's home near Manchester and the clues to his life as a footballer are discreet. He broke his leg soon after the final, moving to Luton, Mansfield and Blackburn and then into the family pet-food business.

Now 63, he is semi-retired, with a stall on Glossop market three days a week and a European Cup winner's medal in a bank somewhere.

'It must be 30 years since I saw it,' he says. 'It's a rectangle, half again as big as a postage stamp. Very small. There's a red and blue flag in one corner and a football on it. It says "Champions" on the back. "1968". That's it. I've nothing. Not even a programme. My sister's got the shirt. She keeps it in a drawer.'

When Munich happened, Aston was 10 years old. His father had retired from football four years earlier, after more than 250 appearances for Busby's dashing post-war United team and 17 England caps.

'The plane had crashed and people were coming into my Dad's shop saying, "Have you heard?",' recalls Aston.'The whole place was in shock. That it had happened. That it could happen.'

John Snr offered his services to a club in crisis and eventually moved on to Busby's backroom team. He was on the bench at Wembley. 'Munich was always there in the background but it was unspoken,' says Aston.

'I came to the club after Munich. I was playing with people involved in the crash. Bobby Charlton, Bill Foulkes, Harry Gregg, Shay Brennan, these people had lost their friends.'And, of course, I realised it was the fulfilment of a dream for the manager, Matt Busby.'

Peering back from the 21st century, after the Fergie years and a 19th title win, it is hard to imagine the state of the club when Busby arrived after the Second World War.

They did not even have a ground. Old Trafford had been bombed and the team were playing at Maine Road.

Aston likens them in stature to Birmingham City at that time and credits Busby's scouting revolution for the change.

'His original idea was simple but so effective,' he says. 'He organised a good scouting system and got the best players from around the country. He started getting players like Bobby Charlton from the North East and Duncan Edwards from the Midlands. That was Matt's innovation. It was ground-breaking at the time.'

By 1968, United were paying young professionals like Aston, Best and David Sadler £40 a week, plus £20 per league point. Aston did not buy his first car until he was 20, and would often travel home from Old Trafford on the bus with fans.

For their European Cup win, the players were rewarded with £2,000 each. Aston put it towards a house priced at £4,500. With Denis Law injured, Busby told his players the team three days before the game.

Aston adds: 'I remember getting up and going for a stroll in the gardens of this lovely hotel and it was like the quiet before the storm. Driving down Wembley Way was the realisation of how big this club was. We could seefans, all wearing the fez like Tommy Cooper and when we got closer we could see they were Egyptians with "Cairo" on their United banner.'

Aston's abiding memory of the game is Best jinking clear to score United's second in extra time before further goals from Brian Kidd and Charlton gave Busby's side a 4-1 victory.

'Vintage George,' he says. 'Down the middle and around the keeper. The keeper got up and tried to get back but George would always say, "I've watched it a thousand times and he ain't caught it yet".'

An emotional night followed rather than wild celebration. 'I remember being the first in the dressing room,' says Aston. 'I just wanted to be quiet. People revert to type and I'm not a flamboyant person. We went to the Russell Hotel and had a meal with the wives. Joe Loss was there with his orchestra. Bobby disappeared and went straight to bed, as did Paddy Crerand. They were just drained.

'The trophy was there, in the dining room. We couldn't take our eyes off it. I had memories of the great Real Madrid team winning it five times and I could see that massive trophy sat there. We'd won it.'
 

Slartibartfast

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@ Mersault - Lovely piece thank you very much :)


The 3rd Ballon D'or winner in the team of 68 was Dennis Law - who missed the final with a knee injury I think - sorry for that I meant the team during the season, not just the final game - didn't mean to be cryptic.