Bolivian President Evo Morales resigns after massive protests over election

[carvajal]

probably if something did happen to my family my views would change. but so far, while im scared, i still think outside interference is worse.

in bolivia the govt after the coup killed a lot of people, which was not happening at that level before. they have openly talked about their racial superiority. in terms of economic results, bolivia =/= venezuela. (evo = 2006).

nor has the govt been reliant on one thing (oil) like the govt in venezuela, and clearly it does not even have the support of the military unlike the venezuelan govt.

They are reliant on coca, expelling the DEA, increasing the (legal) cultivated hectares, and flooding and increasing consumption in neighboring countries. An exaggerated gap between production and domestic consumption.
Journalists infiltrated in Sinaloa ,corroborating a constant movement of personnel to Bolivia ,leaders close to MAS accused of drug trafficking, such as one of the instigators of the latest riots or Mayerlin Castedo + the relationships of Evo himself.
I think any official agency would conclude that there is overwhelming data. Ultimately, he's a fecking narco (like others before him).

 

[4bars]

probably if something did happen to my family my views would change. but so far, while im scared, i still think outside interference is worse.

in bolivia the govt after the coup killed a lot of people, which was not happening at that level before. they have openly talked about their racial superiority. in terms of economic results, bolivia =/= venezuela. (evo = 2006).

nor has the govt been reliant on one thing (oil) like the govt in venezuela, and clearly it does not even have the support of the military unlike the venezuelan govt.

Is so blatantly obvious that Bolivia, with a lot of room for improvement, had improve under MAS at every level. Who seek purity in any leader or any political organization will never find it, and MAS and Evo are not exception, but I don't understand why the left is asked to have that purity while the right always have a pass on anything

 

[4bars]

They are reliant on coca, expelling the DEA, increasing the (legal) cultivated hectares, and flooding and increasing consumption in neighboring countries. An exaggerated gap between production and domestic consumption.
Journalists infiltrated in Sinaloa ,corroborating a constant movement of personnel to Bolivia ,leaders close to MAS accused of drug trafficking, such as one of the instigators of the latest riots or Mayerlin Castedo + the relationships of Evo himself.
I think any official agency would conclude that there is overwhelming data. Ultimately, he's a fecking narco (like others before him).

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa4...ar-by-kicking-out-the-dea-and-legalizing-coca

Though the US said this month that Bolivia has "demonstrably failed" to fulfill its counter-narcotics commitments, there is less violence, less cocaine, and even less coca in Bolivia than there was before.

Then you have the US data that shows a grow in cultivation and the United Nations that shows a decrease

Who to believe? personal taste, not the US. But sure not any official agency as you say

I would expel DEA and any other US organization from my country. Specially after what they had been doing in Latinamerica for decades. As much corruption it might be in Bolivia, I think any official ageny would conclude that there is overwhelming data of how DEA and others are corrupt as feck. US organization are a fecking machine of democratically elected governments (like other decades before)

 

[Marcosdeto]

what can i tell you? i really dislike when protestors are killed, but the truth is that they have been blocking the gas supply to La Paz for weeks and when the government forces arrived, they must have talked to the leaders telling them to clear the blockade
of course, the leaders said "no" so the reprisals begun

i'm so sure that the leaders are not among the victims

and btw, this blockade was ordered by Evo Morales from argentina, and for that the General Attorney in Bolivia accused him of sedition

certain communities that are the least favourable, the poor rich people like Jeanine they are never corrupt ...sure

So in your argumentation:

- Is not ok to abruptly stop the count and then show the final results in last elections (and I agree with that) but is ok to not show the real time count now because there is international observants

- Is ok to have international observants (among them OAS) that other reputable institutions (more reputable than them) dismissed based on the data that OAS itself released (why they would need to be there if the conclusions where based on data misinterpreted). You claim falsely that MIT didn't explain. Here is the link:

https://jackrw.mit.edu/sites/default/files/documents/Bolivia_report-short.pdf

here i was wrong and i admit it, I said "MIT never explained" and it was my mistaje, i meant "didn't explain in those articles that were pasted in the post. My bad.

- You accuse Evo Morales on LGBT comments (which are disgusting) while they approved some of the most advanced laws during his mandate but say nothing about the ultracatholic current president that she participated in "family" congresses where they oppose completely to any rights for these community

I said nothing about the ultracatholic president, because she is not the topic of this thread. I don't mind ultracatholics, but i do think that religion shouldn't mix with governmental decisions. Denying rights to any community is wrong, whoever does it.

- You find completely normal that the police and military that help putting a government that they vote estimation vote in these elections put Jeanine at fourth position (and had to step down to avoid humiliation) got into the government, to go to the polls and "control" the situation

I didn't say that, Jeanine was never the topic of this thread, I never mentioned her

And you end with an analogy with Trump that is irrelevant in my initial question that is what is your opinion on the current bolvian elections preparations

I was making an analogy of how the lefties cry only when the perpetuator comes from the right but keep their mouths shut when is from the left, that's the hypocrisy

So far what the current government is doing the same or worse of what you accuse MAS. And the reality is that Bolivians wants MAS with or without Evo.

You can discuss and I will agree with you that Evo shouldn't be allowed on the last elections, but what they did after that was accepted, was a coup and no one else than MAS was supposed to be the ones that held the mandate

MAS is going to win, you can say whatever you want about the current government, i'm not going to defend them, my sole point ws that Evo committed electoral fraud -maybe i was wrong- and that he intended to perpetuate in power by spurious ways -here is were the Trump analogy fits-

 

[carvajal]

https://www.vice.com/en/article/pa4...ar-by-kicking-out-the-dea-and-legalizing-coca

Though the US said this month that Bolivia has "demonstrably failed" to fulfill its counter-narcotics commitments, there is less violence, less cocaine, and even less coca in Bolivia than there was before.

Then you have the US data that shows a grow in cultivation and the United Nations that shows a decrease

Who to believe? personal taste, not the US. But sure not any official agency as you say

I would expel DEA and any other US organization from my country. Specially after what they had been doing in Latinamerica for decades. As much corruption it might be in Bolivia, I think any official ageny would conclude that there is overwhelming data of how DEA and others are corrupt as feck. US organization are a fecking machine of democratically elected governments (like other decades before)

I'm afraid I don't agree at all

 

[4bars]

I'm afraid I don't agree at all

I didn't expected like any of our interactions

 

[4bars]

what can i tell you? i really dislike when protestors are killed, but the truth is that they have been blocking the gas supply to La Paz for weeks and when the government forces arrived, they must have talked to the leaders telling them to clear the blockade
of course, the leaders said "no" so the reprisals begun

i'm so sure that the leaders are not among the victims

and btw, this blockade was ordered by Evo Morales from argentina, and for that the General Attorney in Bolivia accused him of sedition



here i was wrong and i admit it, I said "MIT never explained" and it was my mistaje, i meant "didn't explain in those articles that were pasted in the post. My bad.



I said nothing about the ultracatholic president, because she is not the topic of this thread. I don't mind ultracatholics, but i do think that religion shouldn't mix with governmental decisions. Denying rights to any community is wrong, whoever does it.



I didn't say that, Jeanine was never the topic of this thread, I never mentioned her



I was making an analogy of how the lefties cry only when the perpetuator comes from the right but keep their mouths shut when is from the left, that's the hypocrisy



MAS is going to win, you can say whatever you want about the current government, i'm not going to defend them, my sole point ws that Evo committed electoral fraud -maybe i was wrong- and that he intended to perpetuate in power by spurious ways -here is were the Trump analogy fits-

Your point didn't explain my question of what did you think about the current election preparations

But on your point, Evo in my opinion bent the rules to present himself, but on election day was no election fraud, and because one person, you can't ban the main party from the legitimacy of government

 

[Marcosdeto]

Your point didn't explain my question of what did you think about the current election preparations

But on your point, Evo in my opinion bent the rules to present himself, but on election day was no election fraud, and because one person, you can't ban the main party from the legitimacy of government

i think i said what i think about the current elections, i said i think is shady that the results wont be given partially
And i also said that i think that the MAS is going to win, which is fine

 

[berbatrick]

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Done?

 

[Marcosdeto]

As I said, MAS is going to win

 

[nimic]

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Done?

Do as I say, not as I do.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Bolivia was saved from an Evo Morales dictatorship

 

[jeff_goldblum]

I or one am sure that the people in here worried about Evo Morales but not at all worried by the coup launched by a powerful group of far-right, racist, colonial hangovers who have been pretty openly itching for one since the moment an indigenous political movement gained power, do so in the best of faith.

 

[Marcosdeto]

I or one am sure that the people in here worried about Evo Morales but not at all worried by the coup launched by a powerful group of far-right, racist, colonial hangovers who have been pretty openly itching for one since the moment an indigenous political movement gained power, do so in the best of faith.

The ones that called for an election and are handing over government to the MAS? The ones that prevented Evo Morales to turn in another Maduro?

 

[Foxbatt]

When the results are so different nothing much they can do. Still the will of the people may not be respected.

 

[Marcosdeto]

When the results are so different nothing much they can do. Still the will of the people may not be respected.

After calling for elections without proscribing any party, giving the results fairly promptly and conceding victory? you really think that might be the final outcome or you just want to win an argument?

 

[jeff_goldblum]

The ones that called for an election and are handing over government to the MAS?

When you launch a coup you don't get brownie points for being bad at it.

Everything that the interim government did in the first few months demonstrates their intention to overturn the MAS victory and give themselves another run at getting elected in a more favourable political climate where MAS were severely weakened. When a March election looked likely they concentrated on throwing as much shit at MAS as possible whilst the (now discredited) OAS audit was still fresh in the memory, jailing opposition leaders and journalists, and passing anti-terrorism laws to prevent their opponents from organising. When that failed and support for MAS didn't crumble they used what was left of the their dwindling hand to ensure Morales didn't come back into power with a grudge, which was basically all they could do at that point.

 

[Sweet Square]

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[Foxbatt]

After calling for elections without proscribing any party, giving the results fairly promptly and conceding victory? you really think that might be the final outcome or you just want to win an argument?

I don't have to win an argument from all the information there is about Bolivia and the previous election.

 

[Marcosdeto]

When you launch a coup you don't get brownie points for being bad at it.

Everything that the interim government did in the first few months demonstrates their intention to overturn the MAS victory and give themselves another run at getting elected in a more favourable political climate where MAS were severely weakened. When a March election looked likely they concentrated on throwing as much shit at MAS as possible whilst the (now discredited) OAS audit was still fresh in the memory, jailing opposition leaders and journalists, and passing anti-terrorism laws to prevent their opponents from organising. When that failed and support for MAS didn't crumble they used what was left of the their dwindling hand to ensure Morales didn't come back into power with a grudge, which was basically all they could do at that point.

i see, well, then if trump uses his power and his Supreme Court to perpetuate as a president, you will be against a coup

And, btw, i'm not saying that the bolivians that overthrew Evo Morales acted perfectly, in fact i didn't say a good word about the way they handled bolivia, but at least, less that a year later, a presidential election was held and are handing over the government, something Evo was not going to do

 

[Marcosdeto]

I don't have to win an argument from all the information there is about Bolivia and the previous election.

of course you don't, never let the logic interfere with your socialists thoughts

 

[Foxbatt]

of course you don't, never let the logic interfere with your socialists thoughts

You are an imbecile aren't you?

 

[Marcosdeto]

You are an imbecile aren't you?

leftie logic again!

 

[nimic]

You are an imbecile aren't you?

Hey, let's give him some credit. This might be some kind of intense and brilliant pop-culture experiment parodying the decline of intellectualism and the rise of Trump-truthiness.

 

[Foxbatt]

leftie logic again!

This is exactly why I think you are an imbecile. Do you know what a socialist is or a leftie? Do you understand English?

 

[Marcosdeto]

This is exactly why I think you are an imbecile. Do you know what a socialist is or a leftie? Do you understand English?

do you understand that i dislike Evo Morales for trying to perpetuate in government and i blame your hypocrite kind for didn't say a thing? do you understand that i will also hate it if Trump does the same? do you understand that if someone does something wrong it doesn't matter what are his colors?

most probably you don't

 

[berbatrick]

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[jeff_goldblum]

i see, well, then if trump uses his power and his Supreme Court to perpetuate as a president, you will be against a coup

And, btw, i'm not saying that the bolivians that overthrew Evo Morales acted perfectly, in fact i didn't say a good word about the way they handled bolivia, but at least, less that a year later, a presidential election was held and are handing over the government, something Evo was not going to do

If Trump challenged the law on US term limits through legal means and won a subsequent 3rd term I'd not advocate for a coup. Changing the law of term limits because the sitting President wants another term is undoubtedly cynical and using the courts when other means have failed is also cynical, but term limits themselves aren't the red line between democracy and autocracy you're pretending they are. Loads of countries don't have them, even the US didn't have them for most of its history. It doesn't reflect well on Morales that he chose to overturn an aspect of the constitution he presumably had a hand in writing when it would affect him, but if the people didn't want him to be President for another term they didn't have to vote for him.

Your second paragraph is largely answered in my previous post re: giving brownie points to those who launched the coup for taking the only option left open to them once it became clear that they didn't have the popular support to either bar MAS from standing in the new election or to postpone it indefinitely. I will add though, that it's not usually required for people who win elections, as Morales did in 2019, to hand over power. In any case, after the (now discredited) OAS audit came out, he himself agreed to call another election. Rather than allowing that to happen, they deposed him and did their utmost to try and orchestrate an election they had a chance of winning. And now apparently they deserve credit for knowing they're beaten? I guess that's character development, given that the last time they lost an election they launched a literal coup.

 

[Marcosdeto]

If Trump challenged the law on US term limits through legal means and won a subsequent 3rd term I'd not advocate for a coup. Changing the law of term limits because the sitting President wants another term is undoubtedly cynical and using the courts when other means have failed is also cynical, but term limits themselves aren't the red line between democracy and autocracy you're pretending they are. Loads of countries don't have them, even the US didn't have them for most of its history. It doesn't reflect well on Morales that he chose to overturn an aspect of the constitution he presumably had a hand in writing when it would affect him, but if the people didn't want him to be President for another term they didn't have to vote for him.

Your second paragraph is largely answered in my previous post re: giving brownie points to those who launched the coup for taking the only option left open to them once it became clear that they didn't have the popular support to either bar MAS from standing in the new election or to postpone it indefinitely. I will add though, that it's not usually required for people who win elections, as Morales did in 2019, to hand over power. In any case, after the (now discredited) OAS audit came out, he himself agreed to call another election. Rather than allowing that to happen, they deposed him and did their utmost to try and orchestrate an election they had a chance of winning. And now apparently they deserve credit for knowing they're beaten? I guess that's character development, given that the last time they lost an election they launched a literal coup.

Well,here is were we don’t agree. I think that a president that has the power to change the constitution and uses that power to his personal benefit is a despot, and as such, he should, be overthrown.
i think that the people have the right to rebel against despots, and that’s why IMO what happened in Bolivia, were elections were held less than a year from the destitution was a bad solution, but still better than what was going on. Else, we will end with another Venezuela in the continent.

as a matter of fact the argentinian constitution in its 36th article explicitly says that the people have the right to resist such acts.

we come from a long history of coups and despots, and we know when someone wants to become one

 

[Sweet Square]

If Trump challenged the law on US term limits through legal means and won a subsequent 3rd term I'd not advocate for a coup. Changing the law of term limits because the sitting President wants another term is undoubtedly cynical and using the courts when other means have failed is also cynical, but term limits themselves aren't the red line between democracy and autocracy you're pretending they are. Loads of countries don't have them, even the US didn't have them for most of its history. It doesn't reflect well on Morales that he chose to overturn an aspect of the constitution he presumably had a hand in writing when it would affect him, but if the people didn't want him to be President for another term they didn't have to vote for him.

Your second paragraph is largely answered in my previous post re: giving brownie points to those who launched the coup for taking the only option left open to them once it became clear that they didn't have the popular support to either bar MAS from standing in the new election or to postpone it indefinitely. I will add though, that it's not usually required for people who win elections, as Morales did in 2019, to hand over power. In any case, after the (now discredited) OAS audit came out, he himself agreed to call another election. Rather than allowing that to happen, they deposed him and did their utmost to try and orchestrate an election they had a chance of winning. And now apparently they deserve credit for knowing they're beaten? I guess that's character development, given that the last time they lost an election they launched a literal coup.

Mate, you are plowing in the sea, they wont listen, they don’t care. They labelled Morales as a despot, so he must be bad.

The old right hypocrisy at it’s best.

 

[jeff_goldblum]

Well,here is were we don’t agree. I think that a president that has the power to change the constitution and uses that power to his personal benefit is a despot, and as such, he should, be overthrown.
i think that the people have the right to rebel against despots, and that’s why IMO what happened in Bolivia, were elections were held less than a year from the destitution was a bad solution, but still better than what was going on. Else, we will end with another Venezuela in the continent.

as a matter of fact the argentinian constitution in its 36th article explicitly says that the people have the right to resist such acts.

we come from a long history of coups and despots, and we know when someone wants to become one

True, far-right elites overthrowing democratically elected governments has been such a successful antidote to coups and despots in South America in the past.

Is there a clause in the Argentinian constitution where your side get a do-over whenever they lose an election as well?

 

[Marcosdeto]

Mate, you are plowing in the sea, they wont listen, they don’t care. They labelled Morales as a despot, so he must be bad.

The old right hypocrisy at it’s best.

i see, so because i don't like the left, i must be from the right

no grays

 

[Marcosdeto]

True, far-right elites overthrowing democratically elected governments has been such a successful antidote to coups and despots in South America in the past.

Is there a clause in the Argentinian constitution where your side get a do-over whenever they lose an election as well?

i despise the right as much as the left, the thing is that we don't see much of the former here

and as i said, i don't agree with overthrowing someone who won, i agree with overthrowing someone who changed the constitution to his own benefit

 

[africanspur]

i despise the right as much as the left, the thing is that we don't see much of the former here

and as i said, i don't agree with overthrowing someone who won, i agree with overthrowing someone who changed the constitution to his own benefit

I actually think your fundamental point (Morales' move, if done by a right wing president, would be roundly criticised on here) is pretty true.....but when you say here, do you mean South America?

You don't have as much right as you do left in SA? You can't be serious with that surely? I feel like I've misunderstood your point there.

 

[Marcosdeto]

I actually think your fundamental point (Morales' move, if done by a right wing president, would be roundly criticised on here) is pretty true.....but when you say here, do you mean South America?

You don't have as much right as you do left in SA? You can't be serious with that surely? I feel like I've misunderstood your point there.

Haha. We have a lot of right in south america. In fact, the main argentinian party -peronistas- has fascist roots. And i’m not Peronista.

when i say “here” i mean red cafe

and if you scratch a little i’ll admit i hate the right a lot more than the far left.

 

[Florida Man]

Then Florida Man agrees with me that Evo said “"The chicken we eat is loaded with female hormones. So, when men eat it, they tend to deviate from their manhood."

I see you conveniently ignore everything I wrote.

 

[Marcosdeto]

I see you conveniently ignore everything I wrote.

He literally says that “when men eat hormoned chickens they have deviations in their being as men”
And he also tried to perpetuate himself as president of Bolivia by spuriously changing the constitution.

that’s all what I said about him

that post was directed to you and i thought that was clear enough on my take about Morales

the rest of what you said was answered in another post to 4bars, here: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/bol...sts-over-election.451759/page-4#post-26234688

 

[berbatrick]

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[calodo2003]

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Is there any credible evidence for the mass electoral fraud they are alleging?

 

[Marcosdeto]

Is there any credible evidence for the mass electoral fraud they are alleging?

mate, if even the anti MAS movements that were there checking the whole process has said nothing, i think is pretty clear that there is not a single evidence of wrongdoing