Brianna Ghey Murder

[Dr. Dwayne]

This is the key thing really. Fundamentally anyone who commits a serious crime like this is a function of their childhood - whether that’s nurture (the environment they grow up in) or nature (the mental considerations there born with). Both of these can be managed if identified and funded. The issue is money is, as you say, funnelled to punishing those who commit the crime than the services which would stop it ever happening. I don’t know how the economics of both compare, although obviously it isn’t and shouldn’t just be an economic question.

Obviously though, if and when people do go on to commit such crimes, they should feel the wrath of punishment.

To be fair, psychopathy can be difficult to identify and manage.

 

[RoadTrip]

Sometimes they are just evil, money doesn't solve everything, for every example of this kind of crime there are millions of other examples where it doesn't happen even with similar or worse circumstances

And that’s true too. Didn’t say it would stop all crime altogether.

 

[RoadTrip]

To be fair, psychopathy can be difficult to identify and manage.

That’s true too. Again, not suggesting everything is preventable. But I think more could and should be done.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is the key thing really. Fundamentally anyone who commits a serious crime like this is a function of their childhood - whether that’s nurture (the environment they grow up in) or nature (the mental considerations there born with). Both of these can be managed if identified and funded. The issue is money is, as you say, funnelled to punishing those who commit the crime than the services which would stop it ever happening. I don’t know how the economics of both compare, although obviously it isn’t and shouldn’t just be an economic question.

Obviously though, if and when people do go on to commit such crimes, they should feel the wrath of punishment.

Where do you even start with trying to make sure that every citizen has a happy, well balanced childhood when we know there will always be a cohort of people who are not (and will probably never be) cut out for being a parent? Some sort of licence or test before you’re allowed to procreate? And sterilise anyone who fails the test?

 

[That'sHernandez]

Where do you even start with trying to make sure that every citizen has a happy, well balanced childhood when we know there will always be a cohort of people who are not (and will probably never be) cut out for being a parent? Some sort of licence or test before you’re allowed to procreate? And sterilise anyone who fails the test?

You put the services and social care in place to support those people. The likely reason these people aren’t cut out to be parents is their parents weren’t cut out for it either. Break the cycle.

You won’t see a reduction in crime immediately but you will in 10-15 years’ time.

 

[Bubz27]

It’s tricky with children as young as 16 with crimes such as this. They are a product of their nature and nurture, neither of which they have had much say in by that age.

On the other hand, plenty of kids have gone through absolute hell and haven't gone about murdering.

 

[RoadTrip]

Where do you even start with trying to make sure that every citizen has a happy, well balanced childhood when we know there will always be a cohort of people who are not (and will probably never be) cut out for being a parent? Some sort of licence or test before you’re allowed to procreate? And sterilise anyone who fails the test?

What in the world is this post? It literally has nothing at all to do with what I wrote.

 

[That_Bloke]

Absolutely senseless.

There's just no word for what they did and I hope that they'll feel the full extent of the law.

 

[Badunk]

On the other hand, plenty of kids have gone through absolute hell and haven't gone about murdering.

You have to accept that there are exceptions to the rule. Your granny might smoke 100 cigarettes and drink a bottle of whisky a day and live to be 100 but that doesn't make it conducive to a long life. Similarly, not everyone who is bullied becomes a bully themselves but I reckon it increases the chances of someone becoming one.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What in the world is this post? It literally has nothing at all to do with what I wrote.

Read it again. You seem to think we can “fix” the nurture side of the equation. What is that if it isn’t trying to ensure that nobody has a dysfunctional childhood? I was wondering what you propose, practically, to stop that happening?

 

[Bubz27]

You have to accept that there are exceptions to the rule. Your granny might smoke 100 cigarettes and drink a bottle of whisky a day and live to be 100 but that doesn't make it conducive to a long life. Similarly, not everyone who is bullied becomes a bully themselves but I reckon it increases the chances of someone becoming one.

What's the rule here? Because there are also killers, serial ones at that, who've had great childhoods and upbringing.

 

[hobbers]

I havent seen anything about either of these two having a bad upbringing.

Same with Lucy Letby, same with plenty of other spree killers, serial killers, serial rapists, pedophiles.

 

[Badunk]

What's the rule here? Because there are also killers, serial ones at that, who've had great childhoods and upbringing.

You said plenty of kids have had terrible childhoods and haven't become killers. I was just saying that those that have had terrible ones are more likely to be killers. Or just horrible people. The topic was nature vs nurture and I think it's pretty obvious that a terrible upbringing is more likely to create a terrible person. Not that it definitely will, just that it's more likely.

But, as @hobbers just posted, perhaps these two didn't.

 

[Bubz27]

You said plenty of kids have had terrible childhoods and haven't become killers. I was just saying that those that have had terrible ones are more likely to be killers. Or just horrible people. The topic was nature vs nurture and I think it's pretty obvious that a terrible upbringing is more likely to create a terrible person. Not that it definitely will, just that it's more likely.

But, as @hobbers just posted, perhaps these two didn't.

I think there's something in between the two to be honest. You're obviously more likely to be a "terrible person" but that's a big jump from a murderer.

 

[Zen86]

It’s a tough one with children these days as they’re exposed to a lot more than we were. It doesn’t always have to be bad parenting, there’s all manner of graphic games and TV at their fingertips. And that’s not to mention the messed up stuff on the internet they can easily access. It’s a tragic case, but they need to be held accountable for their actions regardless and there’s a question mark whether these people can ever be fully rehabilitated.

 

[Shane88]

How likely is life to be life? She got a minimum of 22 years and him 20.

Will they get longer or do they get to start again in their mid to late 30s?

 

[stepic]

Was Brianna killed because she was a transgender? Or were they out to kill people anyway?

The judge said it was a contributing factor for Eddie, given the transphobic messages of his they found, but not Scarlett.

 

[RoadTrip]

Read it again. You seem to think we can “fix” the nurture side of the equation. What is that if it isn’t trying to ensure that nobody has a dysfunctional childhood? I was wondering what you propose, practically, to stop that happening?

There is no fix, in its entirety, and I don’t think I need to spell that out. But you make it out like it can only be one or the other. My point is there should be a better balance between the focus we place on social services and punishment. There are some murders you just can’t stop. But you also read plenty about how the perpetrator of the crime had XYZ issues - be it mental health or something else. And you have to wonder, what if they’d received support for that. Would they have still done what they did? The answer of course is maybe. And it could also be that they did receive support and still did it. I don’t know. But to me, it seems a logical view that investing more in supporting the most impoverished as well as social services would lead to a decline in crime in the long run. Not that I’ve checked if there’s any studies on that, mind.

As for my comment, I was referring to the second half of your post. Since nothing at all in my post said anything about restricting someone’s rights to have children.

 

[buchansleftleg]

How likely is life to be life? She got a minimum of 22 years and him 20.

Will they get longer or do they get to start again in their mid to late 30s?

They will be eligible for parole at the end of those terms but only if they "no longer are a threat" to society.

If they are reasonable prisoners and make the right sort of claims about remorse then they could be released.

I can see the lad being released as he is already doing the 'model prisoner' thing. She however seems to want to be seen as some sort of notorious criminal and has a diagnosis of a serious personality disorder so parole boards may take longer to be convinced.

Given their very young age it's unlikely they won't be released at SOME point unless they end up spiralling into a mental collapse and getting sectioned.

 

[hobbers]

Bulgers killers were both released despite still being clear dangers to the public so no doubt these will be.

 

[Peter van der Gea]

If there are e

To be fair, psychopathy can be difficult to identify and manage.

Well, you literally can't in under 18s be diagnosed with with psychopathy, they would be diagnosed with conduct disorder or oppositional disorder

 

[Alex99]

The judge said it was a contributing factor for Eddie, given the transphobic messages of his they found, but not Scarlett.

Pretty much this, although her general thirst for murder (she made a second "kill list" after conviction) may have been a factor in her heavier sentence, in comparison to his.

Can only hope these details are pertinent in any future parole hearings.

The whole thing has been sickening, and for me is another example of life meaning life where sentencing is concerned.

 

[Vitro]

On the other hand, plenty of kids have gone through absolute hell and haven't gone about murdering.

Exactly. And they don’t due to differences in their genes and/or environment. If those non murdering kids had exactly the same genes and environment as the murdering kids well then they’d also probably be murderers.

 

[Bubz27]

Exactly. And they don’t due to differences in their genes and/or environment. If those non murdering kids had exactly the same genes and environment as the murdering kids well then they’d also probably be murderers.

Was I not clear? I'm talking about the environment. There are kids going through the same, and worse, things that murderers go through and don't end up killing human beings.

So are you then saying its a genetic thing?

 

[Vitro]

Was I not clear? I'm talking about the environment. There are kids going through the same, and worse, things that murderers go through and don't end up killing human beings.

So are you then saying its a genetic thing?

Well what else could it be? If the environment is the same, but the response between two kids is so drastically different (murdering vs non murdering) it has to be heavily based on genetics.

 

[Bubz27]

Well what else could it be? If the environment is the same, but the response between two kids is so drastically different (murdering vs non murdering) it has to be heavily based on genetics.

Which was the original point.

 

[Vitro]

Which was the original point.

Yes and it is an extremely cruel and tragic twist of fate as the perpetrator is not responsible for the genes they inherited, nor the environment they grew up in.

 

[Alex99]

Yes and it is an extremely cruel and tragic twist of fate as the perpetrator is not responsible for the genes they inherited, nor the environment they grew up in.

I don't meant to single you out specifically, but I can't see how the nature vs nurture debate will ever be resolved, and the horrific murder of a teenager doesn't strike me as the best platform to be striking up the discussion.

Genes or otherwise, we all know murder is unforgivable from a young age, let alone a premeditated, targeted murder that involved over two dozen stabbings.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

If there are e

Well, you literally can't in under 18s be diagnosed with with psychopathy, they would be diagnosed with conduct disorder or oppositional disorder

True but that's just humans being silly and idealistic.

 

[LawCharltonBest]

The judge said it was a contributing factor for Eddie, given the transphobic messages of his they found, but not Scarlett.

Thank you

 

[SilentWitness]

Doesn't sound like either of them had poor childhoods. The girl's parents were both teachers and the lad also had parents in respectable jobs and you'd consider them to be living decently.

I do wonder how much the internet has played a part in twisting their minds and having a psychological impact.

 

[Jericholyte2]

I do wonder what the ‘point’ is/was in releasing their names.

The only person who’s name is important / should be remembered in this case is Brianna, and now forevermore she will be inexorably linked with them - news articles about HER will always and forever have pictures of THEM. They will now have the infamy that they sought.

And to those saying they should suffer a long painful death, whilst I’m sure that would make you feel better, what good would it do? What they did was heinous, barbaric and evil, but there was a point when they weren’t. There was a point where they ‘diverged’ and started down this rabbit hole, something external happened to these two that triggered something to make them this way.

Personally I’d rather see the money spent on treating / rehabilitating them from the mental illnesses that they clearly have, instead of simply housing them for 20+ years.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

This is such a bleak and nasty story.

I always hold some sympathy for the parents of the accused/guilty kids.

It's easy to cast them as abhorrently defective parents who raised a monster but I don't believe this is always the case.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Hope that pair of hateful twats enjoy their wasted lives in prison.

Amen.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I'm 40 years old, don't think that makes me a boomer.

Millennial

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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[Jippy]

I do wonder what the ‘point’ is/was in releasing their names.

The only person who’s name is important / should be remembered in this case is Brianna, and now forevermore she will be inexorably linked with them - news articles about HER will always and forever have pictures of THEM. They will now have the infamy that they sought.

And to those saying they should suffer a long painful death, whilst I’m sure that would make you feel better, what good would it do? What they did was heinous, barbaric and evil, but there was a point when they weren’t. There was a point where they ‘diverged’ and started down this rabbit hole, something external happened to these two that triggered something to make them this way.

Personally I’d rather see the money spent on treating / rehabilitating them from the mental illnesses that they clearly have, instead of simply housing them for 20+ years.

You'd hope they get some kind of psychological help towards rehabilitation, but it was such a vicious premeditated murder that a long custodial sentence is inevitable.

 

[Rado_N]

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Mail or Sun?

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Mail or Sun?

Probably both. The photo of the female killer isn't the mug shot, it's a IG profile pick type.