Bundesliga 19/20

[Zehner]

paying attention for what?

Even if the placements don't suggest it, Dortmund nowadays is much closer to Bayern than they were 2011/2012. Dortmund had almost zero net spent in the previous 5 years when they won the league back to back. Financially, Bayern was in completely different stratospheres.

Since then Dortmund has developed a lot. They've built up continuous revenue streams that are independent of player sales. Nowadays Dortmund are a top 15 club in the world, financially. They weren't even top 50 during the titles years, I guess. This season, they've come so far that it wasn't completely unrealistic (pre-Corona) that they can spend 80+m on Havertz.

Those are huge, huge steps that brought them much closer to Bayern. Give them another 5-10 years and Dortmund could in fact be on eye level with them and able to keep their top players.

 

[Kasper]

What the opinion in here to the latest news?
Max Kruse to Union Berlin.

https://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussba...f39d563?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-de-DE

Brilliant, hope he does well.

 

[do.ob]

Tweet

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Pretty strong allegations against Bayern's academy. The German article elaborates quite a lot, claiming to have interviewed several former employees who said that they didn't leave entirely voluntarily, after the co-worker accused of racism used his considerable influence to address his critics.
They claim to have talked to several former and current coaches and parents who corroborate the accusations.
They claim there have been four anonymous letters (by the journalist's own admission not verifiable and deemed as a personal vendetta, not supported by their own internal evaluation/survey, by Bayern) since 9/2018 addressed at the higher-ups (e.g. Brazzo, Rummenigge, Gerland) where supposed worried parents plead with them to do something and also complaining about sadistic and dangerous extra training session, as well as pressure to use certain agents.
When asked for comment about the supposedly leaked whatsapp group chats Bayern is quoted that these have been brough to their attention and are subject of an internal investigation. [...] no public comment at this moment.

 

[Paula]

Even if the placements don't suggest it, Dortmund nowadays is much closer to Bayern than they were 2011/2012. Dortmund had almost zero net spent in the previous 5 years when they won the league back to back. Financially, Bayern was in completely different stratospheres.

Since then Dortmund has developed a lot. They've built up continuous revenue streams that are independent of player sales. Nowadays Dortmund are a top 15 club in the world, financially. They weren't even top 50 during the titles years, I guess. This season, they've come so far that it wasn't completely unrealistic (pre-Corona) that they can spend 80+m on Havertz.

Those are huge, huge steps that brought them much closer to Bayern. Give them another 5-10 years and Dortmund could in fact be on eye level with them and able to keep their top players.

mhh, i do not aggree on that to be honest.
https://de.statista.com/statistik/d...gt die Umsatzerlöse,etwa 715,8 Millionen Euro.

maybe the gap did not increase, but apparently it's still huge.

 

[kaiser1]

Dortmund extend Sancho ballsy i like it

Hope Leverkusen can hold onto Kai

 

[2ndTouch]

Hope Leverkusen can hold onto Kai

God, no. That would mean next season, we'd be wasting the money needed for a top flight Thiago replacement for a guy who'd be Müller's understudy for the following 2 years.
Koan Havertz.

 

[.mica]

Brilliant, hope he does well.

I agree. Could be one step so that Union won't struggle with relegation in their second year. Lovely club. And this Kruse signing is a true coup.

 

[kaiser1]

God, no. That would mean next season, we'd be wasting the money needed for a top flight Thiago replacement for a guy who'd be Müller's understudy for the following 2 years.
Koan Havertz.

'You prefer Kai going to Chelsea this summer?

 

[2ndTouch]

'You prefer Kai going to Chelsea this summer?

Yes. We're about to lose a WC CM. I'd rather see us using the money to plug that hole first.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Yes. We're about to lose a WC CM. I'd rather see us using the money to plug that hole first.

Would you want a midfielder of similar quality to Thiago or would you be happy with Goretzka-Kimmich starting and then a replacement on the bench for Thiago?

 

[2ndTouch]

Would you want a midfielder of similar quality to Thiago

Hard to get one of such quality, but yes.

or would you be happy with Goretzka-Kimmich starting and then a replacement on the bench for Thiago?

I think 3 top midfielders for 2 positions is the bare minimum you should go for, if you're aiming for the very top.

 

[kaiser1]

Yes. We're about to lose a WC CM. I'd rather see us using the money to plug that hole first.

I would prefer Harvetz staying at Leverkusen to keep them competitive
If he wants to go abroad, I think his talent is above Chelsea level, He should stay 1 more year and see if there will be openings at clubs better than Chelsea

 

[.mica]

I would prefer Harvetz staying at Leverkusen to keep them competitive
If he wants to go abroad, I think his talent is above Chelsea level, He should stay 1 more year and see if there will be openings at clubs better than Chelsea

Good point. But maybe he is ready to leave (and is happy that Leverkusen gets their demanded 100 Million), and i agree with your point about possible better clubs (cause he is really cabable of being a worldbeater), but maybe he also sees the plan behind Chelsea's recruitment, which is obviously good. Werner, Ziyech, Pulisic and a CHO already on board, i mean that makes totaly sense and looks like a proper team.

 

[Acrobat7]

Good point. But maybe he is ready to leave (and is happy that Leverkusen gets their demanded 100 Million), and i agree with your point about possible better clubs (cause he is really cabable of being a worldbeater), but maybe he also sees the plan behind Chelsea's recruitment, which is obviously good. Werner, Ziyech, Pulisic and a CHO already on board, i mean that makes totaly sense and looks like a proper team.

I somewhat agree but think that Chelsea cannot challenge for the title with that keeper and defense. Unless they go full Atalanta!
Leverkusen missing out on the CL is IMHO the main driver of Havertz leaving this year and not next. It sucks because i agree with you guys: give him another year and he can probably go to a tier 1 club.
I am also biased since i want him at Bayern. But that would be a time share/competition with Müller for a spot in the starting XI and that is a battle that Havertz would still lose.

 

[Chief123]

Best BVB squad since years! We did our homework very well. On the other side there is the worst Bayern squad ever, they are such a joke these times. Loudmouthing Hoeness who spoke about massive transfer activities, in the end there is nothing but questionmarks and a look at Brazzos clueless face.
At the moment its possible that its more likely that there will be a title race between BVB and this football playing advertisment called RB than a race between BVB and Bayern.

This stupidity in your prediction actually gives me more confidence that Sancho is definitely coming.

You are a true Royal German Sausage!

 

[Cheimoon]

This stupidity in your prediction actually gives me more confidence that Sancho is definitely coming.

You are a true Royal German Sausage!

He was pretty correct until Kovac's firing though... He just missed out on Gladbach.

 

[Acrobat7]

He was pretty correct until Kovac's firing though... He just missed out on Gladbach.

He called it the worst Bayern squad(!) in ages. Which is obviously wrong and was wrong back then. No denying that Kovac was a disaster though.
And poor mica can’t defend himself since he burnt through his daily newbie limit in the Sancho thread making a mug of himself.

 

[Cheimoon]

He called it the worst Bayern squad(!) in ages. Which is obviously wrong and was wrong back then. No denying that Kovac was a disaster though.
And poor mica can’t defend himself since he burnt through his daily newbie limit in the Sancho thread making a mug of himself.

True, the squad thing is nonsense. But he was kinda right on the results at least - until Flick took over.

 

[Acrobat7]

True, the squad thing is nonsense. But he was kinda right on the results at least - until Flick took over.

Yep, indeed. But that poster is simply one of the worst ones here and his current account will probably end up like his old one at some point. Banned.

 

[Dunkelheit]

I would prefer Harvetz staying at Leverkusen to keep them competitive
If he wants to go abroad, I think his talent is above Chelsea level, He should stay 1 more year and see if there will be openings at clubs better than Chelsea

I think everyone would be able to predict what would happen if Havertz stayed another year.

Bayern: Hey Leverkusen, we give you 10 Mio for Havertz
Leverkusen: Oh, that is really not that much, he only has 1 year contract left, but 10 Mio? Well, we sell Havertz to another club then.
Havertz: I will only play in Bayern, because I already got a contr..... errrrmmmm... a continuous wish to play there.

Havertz to Bayern without any fee in 2022.

Hoeness: We want good opponents in Germany, they should really work harder, like we do.

 

[DarkLord]

I think everyone would be able to predict what would happen if Havertz stayed another year.

Bayern: Hey Leverkusen, we give you 10 Mio for Havertz
Leverkusen: Oh, that is really not that much, he only has 1 year contract left, but 10 Mio? Well, we sell Havertz to another club then.
Havertz: I will only play in Bayern, because I already got a contr..... errrrmmmm... a continuous wish to play there.

Havertz to Bayern without any fee in 2022.

Hoeness: We want good opponents in Germany, they should really work harder, like we do.

It's funny and sad how true this is.

 

[.mica]

I totaly underestimated before he got in charge how well Flick will get the team together and implement fighting "11 friends" on the pitch. You see they are (stil?) tactical well teached (doesn't make a difference, pressing, positional play, everything is just great), and are one team again. Respect. At this moment its the best team in the world. Some others might have fancy shiny players, but those teams are never so consistent and concentrated like this Bayern team, at least for now. Will be a hard time fighting against them for the title. Even harder than before. With Sancho and Haaland and new players like Meunier or Bellingham, it might be closer. And maybe, maybe, hell freezes over and Lewandowski got injured ( )...

 

[Bazi]

It's funny and sad how true this is.

I think everyone would be able to predict what would happen if Havertz stayed another year.

Bayern: Hey Leverkusen, we give you 10 Mio for Havertz
Leverkusen: Oh, that is really not that much, he only has 1 year contract left, but 10 Mio? Well, we sell Havertz to another club then.
Havertz: I will only play in Bayern, because I already got a contr..... errrrmmmm... a continuous wish to play there.

Havertz to Bayern without any fee in 2022.

Hoeness: We want good opponents in Germany, they should really work harder, like we do.

Great narrative you've got there...Bayern signings of Bundesliga players over the last five seasons...

Pavard: Stuttgart was already relegated and needed the money, he was leaving for a club abroad or Bayern. The 35m € fee was very good money for what is basically a player who's above average at RB and CB but not great in either position
Kimmich: Stuttgart mismanaged one of their young talents, didn't even let him play for the second team at one point. Their management at the time was very happy with the money they got for a player they didn't have in their plans. Bad management on Stuttgart's side but just good scouting and business by Bayern.
Hummels: Dortmund had to rebuild their team because the 2013 core was disintegrating and the time-line was not aligning for Hummels for whom we paid fair market value. He also was a homegrown player who we lost due to mismanaging his contract several years earlier but he still had strong personal ties to the city.
Niklas Süle: He was a nice central defender for Hoffenheim and certainly a known talent, but the 20m € fee was representative of the fact that there were doubts about his ability to actually make it at the highest level. In today's market a steal but in 2017 hardly anybody thought the fee was anything but appropriate.
Leon Goretzka: He was linked to Bayern as an 18 year old from Bochum and had an offer. He decided to join Schalke04 instead. On a historically and awfully low release clase in the low seven-figures if I recall correctly. It was the steal of the century for Schalke. Schalke then passed on several opportunities to sell Goretzka until they backed themselves into a corner with their mismanagement of his contractual situation.
Serge Gnabry: Doesn't really count. Without our guarantee to buy him the year after Bremen doesn't get him from Arsenal in the first place.



So in total one player who joined Bayern on a free in a situation close to what you're describing and in that situation Schalke got the player on a shady release clause in the first place and then went on to badly mismanage his contractual situation. Hardly a conspiracy by Bayern to avoid paying a fee. Schalke was just incompetent.

 

[.mica]

Great narrative you've got there...Bayern signings of Bundesliga players over the last five seasons...

Pavard: Stuttgart was already relegated and needed the money, he was leaving for a club abroad or Bayern. The 35m € fee was very good money for what is basically a player who's above average at RB and CB but not great in either position
Kimmich: Stuttgart mismanaged one of their young talents, didn't even let him play for the second team at one point. Their management at the time was very happy with the money they got for a player they didn't have in their plans. Bad management on Stuttgart's side but just good scouting and business by Bayern.
Hummels: Dortmund had to rebuild their team because the 2013 core was disintegrating and the time-line was not aligning for Hummels for whom we paid fair market value. He also was a homegrown player who we lost due to mismanaging his contract several years earlier but he still had strong personal ties to the city.
Niklas Süle: He was a nice central defender for Hoffenheim and certainly a known talent, but the 20m € fee was representative of the fact that there were doubts about his ability to actually make it at the highest level. In today's market a steal but in 2017 hardly anybody thought the fee was anything but appropriate.
Leon Goretzka: He was linked to Bayern as an 18 year old from Bochum and had an offer. He decided to join Schalke04 instead. On a historically and awfully low release clase in the low seven-figures if I recall correctly. It was the steal of the century for Schalke. Schalke then passed on several opportunities to sell Goretzka until they backed themselves into a corner with their mismanagement of his contractual situation.
Serge Gnabry: Doesn't really count. Without our guarantee to buy him the year after Bremen doesn't get him from Arsenal in the first place.



So in total one player who joined Bayern on a free in a situation close to what you're describing and in that situation Schalke got the player on a shady release clause in the first place and then went on to badly mismanage his contractual situation. Hardly a conspiracy by Bayern to avoid paying a fee. Schalke was just incompetent.

Nübel is missing.

 

[roonster09]

Someone should start 2020-21 thread. Btw what's the record for most goals scored and most points in Bundesliga season?

 

[EwanI Ted]

Someone should start 2020-21 thread. Btw what's the record for most goals scored and most points in Bundesliga season?

101 goals (1971-72 season) and 91 points (2012-2013 season) apparently. Both Bayern of course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesliga_records_and_statistics

 

[roonster09]

101 goals (1971-72 season) and 91 points (2012-2013 season) apparently. Both Bayern of course.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesliga_records_and_statistics

I think Bayern will break both records.

 

[GhastlyHun]

I think Bayern will break both records.

It's unlikely, because 91 points is ~2.68 points per game (= almost 102 points in a 20 teams league) meaning it's already a really high ppg ratio. Same for the ~3 goals per game needed to get to >100, although I give us better odds to reach those.

 

[roonster09]

It's unlikely, because 91 points is ~2.68 points per game (= almost 102 points in a 20 teams league) meaning it's already a really high ppg ratio. Same for the ~3 goals per game needed to get to >100, although I give us better odds to reach those.

You were poor till Novemner (?) and still scored 100 goals. Bayern relentless team like a FIFA game, wants to score goals all the time.

 

[GhastlyHun]

You were poor till Novemner (?) and still scored 100 goals. Bayern relentless team like a FIFA game, wants to score goals all the time.

We'll have to see whether the team can keep up the intensity after having won it all and getting no real break before next season. They may be in killer form at this very moment, but next season will be long again and is its own story.

 

[hasanejaz88]

If Dortmund hold on to Sancho, I'm gunning for them to win it next season. Sancho, Brandt, Haaland, Hazard/Reyna and Reus returning is going to be an awesome offensive line-up.

Sane coming into Bayern will also help but it's his first season so it can some time to adjust.

 

[Kasper]

If Dortmund hold on to Sancho, I'm gunning for them to win it next season. Sancho, Brandt, Haaland, Hazard/Reyna and Reus returning is going to be an awesome offensive line-up.

Sane coming into Bayern will also help but it's his first season so it can some time to adjust.

Not with Favre

 

[NYAS]

If Dortmund hold on to Sancho, I'm gunning for them to win it next season. Sancho, Brandt, Haaland, Hazard/Reyna and Reus returning is going to be an awesome offensive line-up.

Sane coming into Bayern will also help but it's his first season so it can some time to adjust.

I feel like we say this every year though and it just doesn’t happen. Everyone always gets excited for Der Klassiker and then Dortmund get pummeled by 4 or 5 and then it becomes a race for 2nd place. I hope you’re right but can’t see it happening.

 

[Bazi]

Nübel is missing.

Does it matter in the evaluation? He's a replacement goalie with a seven figure market value who has never really shown why he's so highly rated by some. Most likely he is going to sit on the Bayern bench for a long time.

To come to a conclusion I think it's pretty clear that over the last five years it is near impossible to make the argument that Bayern has directly harmed competitors on the transfer market whereas in the half-decade before that it happened quite regularly.

Fact of the matter is that Dortmund and all the Premiere League clubs are doing a far better job at making sure no other club ever gets into a position to build a great team than we ever could on our own.