Bundesliga 19/20

strongwalker

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I think it might be more than that. We have a couple of players in Germany who get elevated to extreme heights and scrutiny very quickly and then the public holds them to that standard for the rest of their careers. Schürrle probably peaked at Mainz or Leverkusen and normalized to the level of a decent Bundesliga player, but clubs like Wolfsburg and Dortmund kept signing him for €30m and expected a corresponding return - his record for the national team didn't "help" in that regard either I guess. Whatever he did it wasn't good enough. "He did okay, but for €30m you expect more", I don't think anyone ever seriously doubted his motivation, but still I hope he never read the things people wrote about him online, people are sometimes quick to forget that you don't become a robot, just because you earn filthy amounts of money...
Götze has a similar dynamic, several notches higher even and if he were to retire tomorrow I wouldn't be surprised.While I don't find him particularly likeable I have a ton of respect for how well he appears to deal with the insane pressure he has to be under, e.g. his first return to Dortmund, warming up in the catacombs, because of 70k people who used to "love" him expressing their hatred and then he comes on and plays as if nothing is going on around him, scores a goal even. Draxler is another one, he probably did the right thing in leaving Bundesliga. Schalke in particular did a number on him by elevating him to messiah status before he was allowed to drive a car.
Definitely. This was an era where some promising young players where hyped like hell, Schürrle, Götze and a few others had the misfortune to perform above their real skill on the biggest stage and it didn't do them any favour. I don't remember any expert ever pointing out Schürrles rather limited toolset, or Götzes very obvious lack of speed and/or leadership qualities. He was good at Dortmund but even i as a layman could see ge wasnt going to be Messi....
 

Zehner

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Definitely. This was an era where some promising young players where hyped like hell, Schürrle, Götze and a few others had the misfortune to perform above their real skill on the biggest stage and it didn't do them any favour. I don't remember any expert ever pointing out Schürrles rather limited toolset, or Götzes very obvious lack of speed and/or leadership qualities. He was good at Dortmund but even i as a layman could see ge wasnt going to be Messi....
Götze overrated? This guy deserved every single bit of the hype he's got.
 

GhastlyHun

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Hoffenheim have a new coach: Sebastian Hoeneß, nephew of Bayern's Uli and former coach of Bayern's U19 and currently coach of Bayern's second team, who lead Bayern II to an unprecedented title in the third league this season.
 

do.ob

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Hoffenheim have a new coach: Sebastian Hoeneß, nephew of Bayern's Uli and former coach of Bayern's U19 and currently coach of Bayern's second team, who lead Bayern II to an unprecedented title in the third league this season.
Or just call him son of Dieter Hoeneß :)

here's the official announcement:

Bayern's second team has been doing very well lately, but still it's quite the statement for Hoffenheim to appoint a 3rd division coach on such a long contract. After their recent years they should be quite attractive to up and coming coaches.
 

GhastlyHun

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Or just call him son of Dieter Hoeneß :)
I did originally, but then I found Dieter Hoeneß hasn't been active in an official role for a football club since 2011 and thus wouldn't probably mean a lot to people outside Germany.
 

Acrobat7

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Or just call him son of Dieter Hoeneß :)

here's the official announcement:

Bayern's second team has been doing very well lately, but still it's quite the statement for Hoffenheim to appoint a 3rd division coach on such a long contract. After their recent years they should be quite attractive to up and coming coaches.
I know that Bayern want to use their campus to not only produce players but also coaches, but this seems early for Hoeness. He had the best team and resources in league 3 (not to diminish him making the team work and play good to great football) so he is still an unknown. The Hoffenheim/Bayern connection strikes again!
 

do.ob

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I know that Bayern want to use their campus to not only produce players but also coaches, but this seems early for Hoeness. He had the best team and resources in league 3 (not to diminish him making the team work and play good to great football) so he is still an unknown. The Hoffenheim/Bayern connection strikes again!
Several coaches have made that leap or even bigger ones, straight out of youth football. Hoffenheim is a good place to develop. A talented squad, but moderate expectations and an extremely quiet atmosphere at and around the club.
There are very few clubs who can offer a better opportunity to a young coach and you're lucky if they offer you a job.
I'm not even sure whether the 2nd division is such a great place for a coach to develop either. If you have progressive ideas chances are you'll have to compromise them because of player quality, even if you do well it doesn't necessarily put you into contention for a decent Bundesliga job (let alone as attractive a post as Hoffenheim's) and god forbid you actually join a 2nd division top club, where expectations are so high even promotion might not be enough to keep your job. Markus Anfang and Tim Walter were in a somewhat similar situation to Hoeneß, they tried to work their way up the ladder one step at a time, they both joined Kiel, Anfang's results were spectacular, Walter's were still quite good. Both joined a team relegated from Bundesliga, both didn't even have to drop out top 3 to lose their jobs. On the other hand once you join a Bundesliga club you're part of the circus, even when it doesn't work out you're on people's minds when they are looking for a coach.
 

Blackwidow

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Actually it is a natural step.
Hoeneß started 2014 as U17 coach for Rasenball, after 2 years he took over the U19.
In 2017 he transferred to Bayern's U19. That was often critised in fan corners because of the family connections and the different playing ideas of Rasenball and the Bayern youth concept!
Then a season U23 at Bayern.

The usual way to be a Bundesliga player is not a run through the leagues but from U19 with/without a short period in the U23 to the Bundesliga squad. It seems to be the same with coaches...
 

do.ob

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"So is it actually true, that... : ... Hitler ordered Schalke's title wins?"


"They are the last open questions of Bundesliga. Rumours, myths, legends. Topics, which have been making rounds among fans and clubs for years and decades"


Did I miss some Schalke official confronting Bild or something? :lol:
 

do.ob

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Yep, he really said that. That guy would make Lindsay Graham blush.


This myth had come up before, there`s a good answer from Schalke when The Times claimed the same:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B3XBvSFIcAAYSZU?format=jpg&name=900x900
Schalke like to blow up that question to proportions of "did Hitler explicitly order Schalke's titles" so they can answer it with an unequivocal no. But I think the reality is much more nuanced, the sport wasn't exactly like today and in such a despotic state there were lots of opportunities to influence the competition (indirectly) from the lowest of political levels, e.g. by giving some Schalke players Jewish businesses or deploying them in favourable locations, both of which allowed them to continue playing football in the first place. Or by hurting competitors: e.g. Bayern Munich, who had to get rid of their coach and president for being Jewish. Or even worse: Sindelar's fate.
Bild obviously have their own despicable agenda, but I really do think that it's wrong to show off those Nazi titles.
 
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do.ob

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I wonder what he's trying to achieve with statements like that. He can't be stupid or naive enough to actually believe this.
 

kaiser1

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He should just shut up. Some clubs have to actually sell players. Maybe he is unaware of that business model.
I actually think he is right, you cannot be a top club when any talented player who joins you immediately has a stopclock counting down. Ever since Pulisic, Sancho Haaland etc broke through they have been linked to bigger moves. A club like Atletico who has similar standing and resources to BvB still manage to keep their players for longer

Bayern was in that boat like 10yrs ago and with the Ribery issue when many clubs wanted him but Ulli dug his feet in
 

Kasper

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Hoeneß is basically a meme at this point. Every statement he spouts is full of clichés (his comments on internet and e-sports for example, yikes), it`s not even interesting to focus on him anymore. His rabbid fans that make about 2/3rds of Bayern fans will worship him no matter what and he doesn`t have any credibility anywhere else anyway.

He is basically like Trumps twitter train: It doesn`t require any intellectual standards to dismiss the rubbish thats being spouted, but some view it as welcoming exercise to laugh at idiots. And given that Bavaria is full of conservative morons that relish in that sort of attitude he`s representing, I guess its good that he gets exposed in the public from time to time.

Dortmund can be happy, that bellend Watzke is from the same mold but his shite views barely get that sort of attention given that Bayern are happy to take the hits.
 

do.ob

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I actually think he is right, you cannot be a top club when any talented player who joins you immediately has a stopclock counting down. Ever since Pulisic, Sancho Haaland etc broke through they have been linked to bigger moves. A club like Atletico who has similar standing and resources to BvB still manage to keep their players for longer

Bayern was in that boat like 10yrs ago and with the Ribery issue when many clubs wanted him but Ulli dug his feet in
I mean even 10 years ago Bayern was the dominating force in Germany and one of the richest clubs in the world. How does that compare to Dortmund? And I assume "Hoeneß digging his feet in" is code for Ribery killing Real's pursuit of him by screwing an underage prostitute? How's that feet digging going with Alaba and Thiago? Why doesn't Bayern just sign new contracts with them?

Retaining a player isn't a question of wanting to, it's mostly a question of money, even the great and wise Hoeneß himself said that, though he seems to have forgotten about it since. What reason does someone like Sancho or Haaland have to stay long term at Dortmund at the expense of missing out on better offers? It's not their home, it's not their childhood dream. The guys who stay are players like Bürki, who know that they won't be valued as much elsewhere. But funnily enough keeping this kind of player isn't right either, every summer I read Dortmund has to upgrade on him.

Atletico have their special thing with Simeone, I think that can change a lot and players like Partey, Koke and Saul are academy graduates anyway, that's a bit different from some wonderkid that gets bought from abroad, isn't it? Though I would say that procuding domestic first team players who hopefully have a special relationship with the club is indeed a big defecit at the club and something they should be able to improve upon regardless of financial disadvantages.
 

kaiser1

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I mean even 10 years ago Bayern was the dominating force in Germany and one of the richest clubs in the world. How does that compare to Dortmund? And I assume "Hoeneß digging his feet in" is code for Ribery killing Real's pursuit of him by screwing an underage prostitute? How's that feet digging going with Alaba and Thiago? Why doesn't Bayern just sign new contracts with them?

Retaining a player isn't a question of wanting to, it's mostly a question of money, even the great and wise Hoeneß himself said that, though he seems to have forgotten about it since. What reason does someone like Sancho or Haaland have to stay long term at Dortmund at the expense of missing out on better offers? It's not their home, it's not their childhood dream. The guys who stay are players like Bürki, who know that they won't be valued as much elsewhere. But funnily enough keeping this kind of player isn't right either, every summer I read Dortmund has to upgrade on him.

Atletico have their special thing with Simeone, I think that can change a lot and players like Partey, Koke and Saul are academy graduates anyway, that's a bit different from some wonderkid that gets bought from abroad, isn't it? Though I would say that procuding domestic first team players who hopefully have a special relationship with the club is indeed a big defecit at the club and something they should be able to improve upon regardless of financial disadvantages.
Thiago is 29, Alaba is 28yrs, I believe Alaba will stay and Thiagos best years are likely already with Bayern, He has a shady injury record and most likely will be another Schweinsteiger and Hargreaves with his new clubs. The digging in happened with Lewandoski when Madrid came hard for him. Like Ribery, Bayern bumped his salary up and he stayed
Pulisic came from Dortmund academy and the moment he started playing well, he was already linked to other clubs. Like this talent is too much for a Dortmund even from American commentators
Retaining a player has a lot to do with the clubs' ambition, Haaland is building a connection with Sancho and Hakimi, he lost both of them in a season, next season probably losing the next partner who plays well, He also is probably counting down to when he leaves
For example, buying Bellingham, What was the reason for spending 25M on a 16/17yr old? Watzke and most fans know that in a few seasons if Bellingham plays well, he would be traded to the next big EPL club that comes for him. Atletico could have sold Saul or Oblak to the first big bid that came. Tottenham have held on to Kane for over 5 seasons now.
Why not go for a player like Kai Harvetz who will make an immediate impact and be ready to deliver.
All the goodwill and reputation built in the Klopp years has basically been thrown away and now back to being a feeder club for anyone
 
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do.ob

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Thiago is 29, Alaba is 28yrs, I believe Alaba will stay and Thiagos best years are likely already with Bayern, He has a shady injury record and most likely will be another Schweinsteiger and Hargreaves with his new clubs. The digging in happened with Lewandoski when Madrid came hard for him. Like Ribery, Bayern bumped his salary up and he stayed
Pulisic came from Dortmund academy and the moment he started playing well, he was already linked to other clubs. Like this talent is too much for a Dortmund even from American commentators
Retaining a player has a lot to do with the clubs' ambition, Haaland is building a connection with Sancho and Hakimi, he lost both of them in a season, next season probably losing the next partner who plays well, He also is probably counting down to when he leaves
For example, buying Bellingham, What was the reason for spending 25M on a 16/17yr old? Watzke and most fans know that in a few seasons if Bellingham plays well, he would be traded to the next big EPL club that comes for him. Atletico could have sold Saul or Oblak to the first big bid that came. Tottenham have held on to Kane for over 5 seasons now.
Why not go for a player like Kai Harvetz who will make an immediate impact and be ready to deliver.
All the goodwill and reputation built in the Klopp years has basically been thrown away and now back to being a feeder club for anyone
So you're asking yourself why Dortmund with their revenue of say €400m doesn't just pay the same salaries like a club with say €700m annual revenue? Or what they don't just buy Havertz for €100m instead of Bellingham for €25m? Why they didn't they just pay €50m for Hakimi? I guess we will never get to know the answers to these deep and complex mysteries.
 

Acrobat7

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So you're asking yourself why Dortmund with their revenue of say €400m doesn't just pay the same salaries like a club with say €700m annual revenue? Or what they don't just buy Havertz for €100m instead of Bellingham for €25m? Why they didn't they just pay €50m for Hakimi? I guess we will never get to know the answers to these deep and complex mysteries.
I have a feeling the answer is somewhere hidden in your very first sentence. :wenger:
 

do.ob

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Wasn't he all but certain to join Schalke for like the past two or three weeks? Another humiliation for them..


Randomly looking at Hertha's squad I noticed they now have two sons of former coach Dardai in their squad, as well as the son of his successor, Covic, as well as the son of famous Germany goalkeeper Andreas Köpke, who used to be their gk coach briefly under Klinsmann last season. And I've seen they also promoted Omar Rekik to the first team, so he can play together with his brother Karim.
Talk about family values, I don't remember seeing anything like that.
 
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Cheimoon

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So you're asking yourself why Dortmund with their revenue of say €400m doesn't just pay the same salaries like a club with say €700m annual revenue? Or what they don't just buy Havertz for €100m instead of Bellingham for €25m? Why they didn't they just pay €50m for Hakimi? I guess we will never get to know the answers to these deep and complex mysteries.
Also, it isn't like Dortmund themselves choose to put their players in the shopping window as soon as they do well...
 

strongwalker

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So you're asking yourself why Dortmund with their revenue of say €400m doesn't just pay the same salaries like a club with say €700m annual revenue? Or what they don't just buy Havertz for €100m instead of Bellingham for €25m? Why they didn't they just pay €50m for Hakimi? I guess we will never get to know the answers to these deep and complex mysteries.
Dortmund were/are(?) still recovering from their near-bancrupcy so their situation can't be compared to Munich, that is correct. On the other hand, with the transfer fees and salaries exploding like they were in the last couple of years, Bayern's infamous Festgeldkonto isn't the big asset it used to be - 200Mio don't buy you a full CL team any more, a couple of defenders maybe. Compared to the top Spanish and English teams plus PSG, Bayern is a full step down in terms of spending power yet they refuse to take that as an excuse and just challenge.

Still BVB is one of the top 10-15 clubs in Europe financially and by reputation- that's why they manage to catch a few of the top talents in Europe every year - and It can be argued that for that, they are underachieving. They should be able to challenge a bit more domestically (same could be said for other clubs - it almost is as if everyone has just given up on the idea of challenging Bayern's status)
Also, maybe they maneuvered themselves in a cul de sac by being too eager positioning themselves as a shopping window feeder club.
 
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2ndTouch

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Still BVB is one of the top 10-15 clubs in Europe financially and by reputarion- that's why they manage to catch a few of the top talents in Europe every year - and It can be argued that for that, they are underachieving. Also, maybe they maneuvered themselves in a cul de sac by being too eager positioning themselves as a shopping window feeder club.
They're getting a lot of publicity for their penchant of buying cheap and selling for very high prices, but they're also trying to build up a reliable spine of mature players. like Hummels, Witsel, Can, or Meunier.
I think they've been playing their hands dealt pretty well over the past 10 years. Making that final step without some rich owner takes time. It'll be interesting to see where they are in another 10 years from now on.
 

do.ob

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Dortmund were/are(?) still recovering from their near-bancrupcy so their situation can't be compared to Munich, that is correct. On the other hand, with the transfer fees and salaries exploding like they were in the last couple of years, Bayern's infamous Festgeldkonto isn't the big asset it used to be - 200Mio don't buy you a full CL team any more, a couple of defenders maybe. Compared to the top Spanish and English teams plus PSG, Bayern is a full step down in terms of spending power yet they refuse to take that as an excuse and just challenge.

Still BVB is one of the top 10-15 clubs in Europe financially and by reputation- that's why they manage to catch a few of the top talents in Europe every year - and It can be argued that for that, they are underachieving. They should be able to challenge a bit more domestically (same could be said for other clubs - it almost is as if everyone has just given up on the idea of challenging Bayern's status)
Also, maybe they maneuvered themselves in a cul de sac by being too eager positioning themselves as a shopping window feeder club.






WhY dOeSn'T DoRtMuNd JuSt Do WhaT BaYerN dOEs, DaDDy?

OtHeR GeRmAn CLuBs JuSt AreN't TryIng As HaRd aS BaYeRn, SoN!

A big hand for the brave Bavarian underdogs please.
 
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do.ob

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yep you didn't read or understand a word of what i wrote

Bayern have the fourth highest turnover and the fifth highest wage bill in Europe. I know you want to ignore all that and focus solely and transfer spending, conveniently ignoring that Bayern leverage their domestic dominance into getting a nice discount on anyone who wants to play in Germany (something clubs in Spain and especially England can't do) and then claim poverty.

And then you move on to their domestic competition:





Why aren't other clubs challenging Bayern more? It's so hard to understand, when Bayern are only outspending Dortmund by €100m in wages every season and only spent €350m more than them on transfer fees over the past five years? Why don't they just refuse to take that lame excuse.



No one is saying that Dortmund don't make mistakes, too many of their domestic transfers have flopped and their academy hasn't been very productive since Götze. But that doesn't change the financial dimensions of the competition.
Hoeneß and some of his fans have gotten bored with winning so many titles in a row, so now they are trying to create this alternate reality where nearly doubling your competitor's spending power isn't all that and all their recent domestic titles were earned the hard way, by wanting it more..

Calling out Dortmund for trying to make the best of their situation, by signing up wonderkids is another gem, like do you even think about what the alternative would be? Instead of signing someone like Sancho for €8m and having a player of a quality they could never buy straight up they should just spend more money on an inferior player? And as a consequence spend even less on the rest of their squad?
 
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Paula

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WhY dOeSn'T DoRtMuNd JuSt Do WhaT BaYerN dOEs, DaDDy?

OtHeR GeRmAn CLuBs JuSt AreN't TryIng As HaRd aS BaYeRn, SoN!

A big hand for the brave Bavarian underdogs please.
well, Dortmund was catching up till 2013 but struggled afterwards.
Some bad decisions were made and the gap to Bayern is getting bigger year by year since than.
 

Cheimoon

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well, Dortmund was catching up till 2013 but struggled afterwards.
Some bad decisions were made and the gap to Bayern is getting bigger year by year since than.
It's not that simple though. Bayern also made bad decisions with their managerial appointments following Pep, but their player core is so strong that they can make up for that fairly quickly. Dortmund isn't in that situation and is therefore hit much harder if one of their decisions backfire.
 

Acrobat7

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It's not that simple though. Bayern also made bad decisions with their managerial appointments following Pep, but their player core is so strong that they can make up for that fairly quickly. Dortmund isn't in that situation and is therefore hit much harder if one of their decisions backfire.
Dortmund also spend a lot of money on horrible signings. Schürrle, Yarmolenko et al come to mind.