Bundesliga to the Premier League

[TsuWave]

Players take different to settle. Havertz was shit for weeks and now he’s doing well. The premier league isn’t this unconquerable force people think it is

Also, Sancho did a substantial part of his football learning through the ranks in England. He’ll be fine.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Does anybody here think Firmino has been that good, really? He's ok but to label him an outstanding player, well...

There's only Son, KDB and Aubameyang who's really done it, with KDB being the true outstanding Bundesliga talent in that pool. Gundogan is getting there but his first season was not great either.

Firmino, Ballack, Sane, De Jong, Dzeko, Mertesacker ...are just....ok. And everyone who's signed for United, past or present, has been a flop. The most disappointing one being Bastian fecking Schweinsteiger

Yes, Firmino has been an undoubted success, 7th season now starting for Liverpool in a key role in their most successful period in the PL era. Signed for £29 million, more than made up for that. One man pressing machine about 3 or 4 years ago, brilliant false 9. He's hardly the best striker in the world but still a very successful signing. Just because he hasn't played well recently, doesn't mean he hasn't been a great signing.

 

[Acrobat7]

Well we have hits and misses of imports from every league, but the Bundesliga has been particularly disappointing for us. Not even 1 success.

And with that you just gave the explanation why a thread like this exists. United were bad at scouting (Miki/Kagawa), blind (Schweinsteiger) or unlucky (Hargreaves) when it came to Bundesliga players. That‘s why there is often the (false) impression on here that Bundesliga players don’t work in the Premiere League.

 

[spiriticon]

And with that you just gave the explanation why a thread like this exists. United were bad at scouting (Miki/Kagawa), blind (Schweinsteiger) or unlucky (Hargreaves) when it came to Bundesliga players. That‘s why there is often the (false) impression on here that Bundesliga players don’t work in the Premiere League.

Yup sure it's all our fault. Never mind that players from other leagues, that are apparently worse than the Bundesliga, can actually succeed this club. Never mind that there is evidence at other clubs too that players take a damn long time to settle.

 

[Boavista]

I find English football's obsession with how uniquely different and difficult the league is somewhat puzzling. That combined with the obsession of talking down other leagues, especially the Bundesliga, and you get this endless broken record of "needs to adapt to the league", "can't cut it in England" etc etc.

Transfers fail, or take their time to succeed, for all sorts of reasons. Nowhere else outside of England do people go on and on about the main obstacle being players needing to adapt to the league, rather than having to adapt to their own team. When Coutinho still hasn't shown his class in Barcelona do fans talk about him needing to adapt to the pace/physicality/technical level of the league? Players in other countries also take their time, yet very few people would use that argument as the primary reason. Since when is how the opponent plays more important to a player's success than how the player links up with his own team mates?
What about players moving from one PL team to another, and not succeeding straight away or at all? Obviously it makes no sense to argue that they couldn't adapt to the league in the case of Lukaku and Sanchez moving to United, or Torres and Ross Barkley moving to Chelsea etc. So wouldn't it make sense to not have that double standard when evaluating the main reason for why a player doesn't live up to expectation at his new club?

Besides, even if there might be general differences in how teams tend to play across different leagues, it's not like teams in a league all play the same way. After all there have been plenty of former Bundesliga coaches managing English teams in recent years for instance. Likewise just because Premier League teams are on average better than Bundesliga teams it doesn't mean there isn't a significant overlap in quality. Just for argument's sake, if someone genuinely thought that the top half of German teams are as bad as the bottom half of Premier League teams, that would still be half of all league matches being played on a similar level.

 

[paraguayo]

I find English football's obsession with how uniquely different and difficult the league is somewhat puzzling. That combined with the obsession of talking down other leagues, especially the Bundesliga, and you get this endless broken record of "needs to adapt to the league", "can't cut it in England" etc etc.

Transfers fail, or take their time to succeed, for all sorts of reasons. Nowhere else outside of England do people go on and on about the main obstacle being players needing to adapt to the league, rather than having to adapt to their own team. When Coutinho still hasn't shown his class in Barcelona do fans talk about him needing to adapt to the pace/physicality/technical level of the league? Players in other countries also take their time, yet very few people would use that argument as the primary reason. Since when is how the opponent plays more important to a player's success than how the player links up with his own team mates?
What about players moving from one PL team to another, and not succeeding straight away or at all? Obviously it makes no sense to argue that they couldn't adapt to the league in the case of Lukaku and Sanchez moving to United, or Torres and Ross Barkley moving to Chelsea etc. So wouldn't it make sense to not have that double standard when evaluating the main reason for why a player doesn't live up to expectation at his new club?

Besides, even if there might be general differences in how teams tend to play across different leagues, it's not like teams in a league all play the same way. After all there have been plenty of former Bundesliga coaches managing English teams in recent years for instance. Likewise just because Premier League teams are on average better than Bundesliga teams it doesn't mean there isn't a significant overlap in quality. Just for argument's sake, if someone genuinely thought that the top half of German teams are as bad as the bottom half of Premier League teams, that would still be half of all league matches being played on a similar level.

You need to adapt to the physicality of RedCafe

 

[Wolf1992]

What can I say - I like writing a lot
I piss off people at work too with my lengthy mails.

Maybe it all boils down to what you said and maybe not. I mean - players leaving EPL to other leagues are not sure to be successful either, so there has to be something more than money involved, right?

We would need lots and lots of english players going to other leagues to measure how well they adapt, but due to the circumstances that's not happening anytime soon.Averages wages in England are the highest and english people were never known for their excitement about learning other languages (they don't need to tbh).
Foreigners playing in EPL, and then moving abroad don't count, because most of them played in other league before the EPL.

 

[Acrobat7]

Yup sure it's all our fault. Never mind that players from other leagues, that are apparently worse than the Bundesliga, can actually succeed this club. Never mind that there is evidence at other clubs too that players take a damn long time to settle.

It is not statistical evidence when you pull a couple of players out of the hat to prove a point. You need a significantly lager base for that.
After all, there is also „evidence“ that Bundesliga players work in the Premier League. And I want to stress again, that Fuchs won the Prem as a starter at Leicester while being at best average in the Bundesliga. Is this evidence or an anecdote? Obviously the latter. As are your examples.

 

[spiriticon]

It is not statistical evidence when you pull a couple of players out of the hat to prove a point. You need a significantly lager base for that.
After all, there is also „evidence“ that Bundesliga players work in the Premier League. And I want to stress again, that Fuchs won the Prem as a starter at Leicester while being at best average in the Bundesliga. Is this evidence or an anecdote? Obviously the latter. As are your examples.

I'm not saying all Bundesliga players are crap. There's plenty of anectodal evidence without Fuchs to show that Bundesliga players can come good. I think Sancho will come good.

The issue is that during the first 6 months to a year or so they look seriously off the pace, which is strange because there is a reputation for the Bundesliga to be quite fast paced, end-to-end and similar to the PL. Watching Thiago, Havertz and Werner last year was a right laugh but they are better this year. Compared to players that come from the French/Italian/Portuguese/Spanish leagues, it feels that the settling in period for BL players is much longer. If we gave Kagawa or Mkhi a couple more years, they'd probably be alright and playing at the levels of Sane, Mertesacker, Fuchs et al. But man, that's a lot of time.

Yes, all new imported players take time to adapt to a new league, a new club, but it does feel that Bundesliga players take that little bit more time. There are, of course as always, some exceptions to this. As I mentioned before, KDB, Son and Auba hit it off like they have always been here. But for most others this isn't true.

I'd love to see a stat of this across several leagues but how does one measure 'average time taken to settle in a new PL club" over a large sample size? How does one even measure 'settled in'?

 

[Crustanoid]

insane that after one game people are writing him off.

Nothing surprises me with our fan base, sadly

 

[Boavista]

I'm not saying all Bundesliga players are crap. There's plenty of anectodal evidence without Fuchs to show that Bundesliga players can come good. I think Sancho will come good.

The issue is that during the first 6 months to a year or so they look seriously off the pace, which is strange because there is a reputation for the Bundesliga to be quite fast paced, end-to-end and similar to the PL. Watching Thiago, Havertz and Werner last year was a right laugh but they are better this year. Compared to players that come from the French/Italian/Portuguese/Spanish leagues, it feels that the settling in period for BL players is much longer. If we gave Kagawa or Mkhi a couple more years, they'd probably be alright and playing at the levels of Sane, Mertesacker, Fuchs et al. But man, that's a lot of time.

Yes, all new imported players take time to adapt to a new league, a new club, but it does feel that Bundesliga players take that little bit more time. There are, of course as always, some exceptions to this. As I mentioned before, KDB, Son and Auba hit it off like they have always been here. But for most others this isn't true.

I'd love to see a stat of this across several leagues but how does one measure 'average time taken to settle in a new PL club" over a large sample size? How does one even measure 'settled in'?

Your argument boils down to you feeling that BL players take longer to settle, but that's obviously kind of narrative driven and influenced by your biases. Sometimes players don't fit into their new team, sometimes they're really unlucky with injuries, sometimes they're over the hill etc

It's a fairly small sample size. Who's to say those players that didn't shine in English football are the rule, when you've already decided the one's who've succeeded are the exception?

Personally I think the common thread across underperforming players most of the time is underperforming teams. I don't think it makes sense to expect new players to perform instantly when their team mates aren't either.

 

[spiriticon]

Your argument boils down to you feeling that BL players take longer to settle, but that's obviously kind of narrative driven and influenced by your biases. Sometimes players don't fit into their new team, sometimes they're really unlucky with injuries, sometimes they're over the hill etc

It's a fairly small sample size. Who's to say those players that didn't shine in English football are the rule, when you've already decided the one's who've succeeded are the exception?

Personally I think the common thread across underperforming players most of the time is underperforming teams. I don't think it makes sense to expect new players to perform instantly when their team mates aren't either.

But of course, it has to be based on my feeling because there is no stat for 'settling in'.

But if there was one, I'd be happy to know from which league a player is most likely to settle the fastest. It's good knowledge! And I'd be happy to be shown wrong about my 'eye-test'.

 

[ghagua]

Players have to adapt to their own teams more than anything else and a large amount of transfers don't work due to a player not fitting his new role/environment.

Agree with this 100% There are many players who have been successful in the Premier League after playing in Germany.

 

[kaiser1]

It is not statistical evidence when you pull a couple of players out of the hat to prove a point. You need a significantly lager base for that.
After all, there is also „evidence“ that Bundesliga players work in the Premier League. And I want to stress again, that Fuchs won the Prem as a starter at Leicester while being at best average in the Bundesliga. Is this evidence or an anecdote? Obviously the latter. As are your examples.

Hazard best player in the EPL pants in La Liga
Sane best young player in the EPL useless in Bundesliga
Coutinho one of the top players in EPL, useless in La Liga and Bundesliga

 

[RooneyLegend]

It's more an adjustment to teams systems and style of play than anything to do with the league in terms of different standards of play. We know this because there's alot of success stories from the other top leagues including the bundesliga. This is the reason why some transfers fail even when signing a player from the same league.

Sancho is a player that has shown he can perform at the highest level of the club game aint no way any struggles of his will be caused by the poor prem sides. Its quite clear he isn't completely match fit and lacking in sharpness. What sort of reasoning is that he needs space? He's got some of the quickest feet in the business.

 

[JPRouve]

It's more an adjustment to teams systems and style of play than anything to do with the league in terms of different standards of play. We know this because there's alot of success stories from the other top leagues including the bundesliga. This is the reason why some transfers fail even when signing a player from the same league.

Sancho is a player that has shown he can perform at the highest level of the club game aint no way any struggles of his will be caused by the poor prem sides. Its quite clear he isn't completely match fit and lacking in sharpness. What sort of reasoning is that he needs space? He's got some of the quickest feet in the business.

What Sancho needs is to have the ball more often in the final third, his strength is in his ability to create things in that area but we play in a way that doesn't alllow this kind of situation. He would benefit from Bruno playing like a midfielder while he can be the main playmaker in the last third.

 

[RooneyLegend]

What Sancho needs is to have the ball more often in the final third, his strength is in his ability to create things in that area but we play in a way that doesn't alllow this kind of situation. He would benefit from Bruno playing like a midfielder while he can be the main playmaker in the last third.

But would Bruno benefit from that? How's he gonna get his numbers plus how would he fair in midfield where ball retention is expected?

 

[Boavista]

But of course, it has to be based on my feeling because there is no stat for 'settling in'.

But if there was one, I'd be happy to know from which league a player is most likely to settle the fastest. It's good knowledge! And I'd be happy to be shown wrong about my 'eye-test'.

My point is that when it comes to BL players going to the PL, people are very quick to jump to the conclusion you're making because they feel that way.

I mean you yourself tried to argue that Firmino wasn't a successful signing for some reason, when he's been Liverpool's starting striker for practically the entire time he's been in England, winning the Champions League and Premier League. His stats aren't exceptional, but he hardly dominated German football either.
And Gundogan is just getting there according to you, when he was one of the league's best players last season, and has been consistently good before that too. His first season obviously wasn't great, but how could it be when he was out injured for almost the entire season.

At the same time you've replied Pogba to the question who's bossing it in England after moving from the Italian league. He's obviously an immensely talented player on his day and playing well right now, but I'd argue his 5 seasons in Manchester have been pretty mixed at best. In my opinion he's not the best example of a player hitting the ground running. Or to put it mildly his performances have been pretty divisive on here for most of his time with United. I even remember a thread on here not long after he was signed comparing him to Veron.

 

[JPRouve]

But would Bruno benefit from that? How's he gonna get his numbers plus how would he fair in midfield where ball retention is expected?

I think so. In my opinion we are wasting him, he is very well rounded, he is a good passer, an avid presser and good under pressure. By playing him as a second striker we may have goals but we don't have the rest of his game and since we have players that are able to score goals if we feed them and have a bit control, I find the current setup extremely frustrating and shortsighted.

Think about Scholes, he was a good goalscorer but it would have been a waste to keep him as a second striker/attacking midfielder.

 

[skc_18]

Sancho will come good when we have complete team ready fitness-wise.
Start Cavani / Ronaldo as Centre-forward with Greenwood on right, and sancho on left or Rashford on left/ Sancho on right, Sancho will do good. Right now too much press against him and he is giving ball away and also i dont think everyone is in sync with him. Few games later that should change. From what I have seen he is probably gonna become our most press-resistant player and will bring others into game.

 

[spiriticon]

My point is that when it comes to BL players going to the PL, people are very quick to jump to the conclusion you're making because they feel that way.

I mean you yourself tried to argue that Firmino wasn't a successful signing for some reason, when he's been Liverpool's starting striker for practically the entire time he's been in England, winning the Champions League and Premier League. His stats aren't exceptional, but he hardly dominated German football either.
And Gundogan is just getting there according to you, when he was one of the league's best players last season, and has been consistently good before that too. His first season obviously wasn't great, but how could it be when he was out injured for almost the entire season.

At the same time you've replied Pogba to the question who's bossing it in England after moving from the Italian league. He's obviously an immensely talented player on his day and playing well right now, but I'd argue his 5 seasons in Manchester have been pretty mixed at best. In my opinion he's not the best example of a player hitting the ground running. Or to put it mildly his performances have been pretty divisive on here for most of his time with United. I even remember a thread on here not long after he was signed comparing him to Veron.

Ok so there's two (or more) ideas floating around in this thread and its important not to be confused:

Idea 1: "BL players are all generally failures in the Premier League" - Do I believe this? Nah. I think the hit rate is probably about the same as any other league. I don't rate Firmino and that's my opinion (and also some Pool fans I know), but it has nothing to do with the quality of the BL. I also don't think Pogba has been a success at United so far for all it's worth.

Idea 2: "BL players take more time to settle in the PL compared to other leagues" - Do I believe this? I think this actually has some legs. Maybe there's a bit of recency bias, but man Thiago, Keita, Havertz, Werner, Kagawa, Mkhi, BFS all look like they were wearing lead boots in their first 6 months. If you see players from other leagues, yes they need to adapt to tactics and whatever but I don't get this 'lead boots' feeling. Sancho looks that way too at the moment, but I don't want to judge him after one game. Firmino and Gundogan, what were they like in their first season or two? I can't remember how long it took them to get up to speed. Even Michael Ballack, who was mentioned in the first page, I think he took quite some time to get going IIRC.

 

[kaiser1]

My point is that when it comes to BL players going to the PL, people are very quick to jump to the conclusion you're making because they feel that way.

I mean you yourself tried to argue that Firmino wasn't a successful signing for some reason, when he's been Liverpool's starting striker for practically the entire time he's been in England, winning the Champions League and Premier League. His stats aren't exceptional, but he hardly dominated German football either.
And Gundogan is just getting there according to you, when he was one of the league's best players last season, and has been consistently good before that too. His first season obviously wasn't great, but how could it be when he was out injured for almost the entire season.

At the same time you've replied Pogba to the question who's bossing it in England after moving from the Italian league. He's obviously an immensely talented player on his day and playing well right now, but I'd argue his 5 seasons in Manchester have been pretty mixed at best. In my opinion he's not the best example of a player hitting the ground running. Or to put it mildly his performances have been pretty divisive on here for most of his time with United. I even remember a thread on here not long after he was signed comparing him to Veron.

Its about confirmation bias. What has Pogba done better than Gundogan in the league? Both came the same year, Both have made the PFA team once, Gundogan has been player of the months twice. Actually can be argued that Gundogans performance last season has never been done by Pogba

Serie A players into the league include Lamela, Aquilani, Higuain, Borini, Osvaldo, Corradi, Bojinov, Shevchenko, Veron Henry Zola Bergkamp, Mutu. They have been a mixed bag as well

 

[do.ob]

Idea 2: "BL players take more time to settle in the PL compared to other leagues" - Do I believe this? I think this actually has some legs. Maybe there's a bit of recency bias, but man Thiago, Keita, Havertz, Werner, Kagawa, Mkhi, BFS all look like they were wearing lead boots in their first 6 months. If you see players from other leagues, yes they need to adapt to tactics and whatever but I don't get this 'lead boots' feeling. Sancho looks that way too at the moment, but I don't want to judge him after one game. Firmino and Gundogan, what were they like in their first season or two? I can't remember how long it took them to get up to speed. Even Michael Ballack, who was mentioned in the first page, I think he took quite some time to get going IIRC.

Some examples these are:
Thiago picked up corona virus early into his first season, then he was out for moths with a knee injury, then Liverpool were in free fall, with van Dijk injured, etc.
Keita didn't need long to settle, he just flopped and what potential for success was there got done by injuries.
Kagawa didn't settle, his situation actually got worse over time, both him and Mkhitaryan were never going to succeed under Moyes and Mourinho. Regardless how much time would have been given to them. They are two players who need a cohesive frame work around them and United was the opposite at the time.
Schweinsteiger's body was done before he joined United, he didn't settle, he got axed.
Werner never was half as good as some people on here believed and his main problem is that he's choking in front of goal. It's not like he was completely off the pace in terms of general play, he had lots of chances from early on, he just bottled them in pathetic fashion.

 

[spiriticon]

Some examples these are:
Thiago picked up corona virus early into his first season, then he was out for moths with a knee injury, then Liverpool were in free fall, with van Dijk injured, etc.
Keita didn't need long to settle, he just flopped and what potential for success was there got done by injuries.
Kagawa didn't settle, his situation actually got worse over time, both him and Mkhitaryan were never going to succeed under Moyes and Mourinho. Regardless how much time would have been given to them. They are two players who need a cohesive frame work around them and United was the opposite at the time.
Schweinsteiger's body was done before he joined United, he didn't settle, he got axed.
Werner never was half as good as some people on here believed and his main problem is that he's choking in front of goal. It's not like he was completely off the pace in terms of general play, he had lots of chances from early on, he just bottled them in pathetic fashion.

You can always try to find mitigating reasons for every transfer, but the fact is that they are the most high profile transfers from the BL to the PL in the last 3-4 years (apart from Kagawa and BFS). Small sample, recency bias yes. But interesting nonetheless.

I'm looking at Sancho and Konate to break that trend.

 

[do.ob]

You can always try to find mitigating reasons for every transfer, but the fact is that they are the most high profile transfers from the BL to the PL in the last 3-4 years (apart from Kagawa and BFS). Small sample, recency bias yes. But interesting nonetheless.

I'm looking at Sancho and Konate to break that trend.

So to make your point you ignore differing examples (e.g. Aubameyang, KdB, Sane), you ignore the context of the settling in periods you perceive, even if it's literally injuries and then you arrive at: here are five examples, that's conclusive enough for me! Doesn't exactly sound scientific.

 

[Kasper]

Best example is probably Fellaini. Looked like a god in the Bundesliga in 2012/13 - goes to the PL and looks like an absolute donkey.

 

[spiriticon]

So to make your point you ignore differing examples (e.g. Aubameyang, KdB, Sane), you ignore the context of the settling in periods you perceive, even if it's literally injuries and then you arrive at: here are five examples, that's conclusive enough for me! Doesn't exactly sound scientific.

I didn't ignore the successes. So far I count 3 fast starters (Auba, Son, Kdb) and 5 or 6 slow starters (Thiago, Keita, Havertz, Werner, Mhki and possibly Sancho, Konate hasn't started in the first 3 games) for the highest profile transfers of the last few years.

It's about 2 to 1 against.

 

[do.ob]

I didn't ignore the successes. So far I count 3 fast starters (Auba, Son, Kdb) and 5 or 6 slow starters (Thiago, Keita, Havertz, Werner, Mhki and possibly Sancho) for the highest profile transfers.

It's about 2 to 1 against.

So you count Sancho after one start, but not Sane? Interesting.

 

[kaiser1]

Some examples these are:
Thiago picked up corona virus early into his first season, then he was out for moths with a knee injury, then Liverpool were in free fall, with van Dijk injured, etc.
Keita didn't need long to settle, he just flopped and what potential for success was there got done by injuries.
Kagawa didn't settle, his situation actually got worse over time, both him and Mkhitaryan were never going to succeed under Moyes and Mourinho. Regardless how much time would have been given to them. They are two players who need a cohesive frame work around them and United was the opposite at the time.
Schweinsteiger's body was done before he joined United, he didn't settle, he got axed.
Werner never was half as good as some people on here believed and his main problem is that he's choking in front of goal. It's not like he was completely off the pace in terms of general play, he had lots of chances from early on, he just bottled them in pathetic fashion.

Rule of thumb, when Bayern is willing to sell a key player or not interested in a Buli player, Buyers beware. Its likely Bayern have watched these players for longer than these EPL teams and fans e.g Werner

 

[spiriticon]

So you count Sancho after one start, but not Sane? Interesting.

You can leave Sancho out. I don't really want to judge him or Konate yet. Odds are still against.

 

[do.ob]

You can leave Sancho out. I don't really want to judge him or Konate yet. Odds are still against.

So you have 9 examples that split 4v5. And that gives you certainty.

 

[spiriticon]

So you have 9 examples that split 4v5. And that gives you certainty.

4? I didn't think Sane was impressive in season 1. I'd more likely class him in the other group to be honest. Hell I didn't think Sane was impressive at any point in his City career.

Also, No one said anything about certainty. It's simply a noticeable trend.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Best example is probably Fellaini. Looked like a god in the Bundesliga in 2012/13 - goes to the PL and looks like an absolute donkey.

...What? Fellaini has never played in the Bundesliga. In 12/13 he was playing for Everton.

 

[spiriticon]

Wait... even Son struggled it seems!!

https://www.espn.com/soccer/tottenh...fielder-son-heung-min-im-happy-to-be-here-now

Speaking after the win at Middlesbrough, Pochettino said: "He asked to leave after the Olympic Games but we decided he would stay with us. I didn't want him to go.

"You can see his reaction has been good. We try to give all the best to our players, but sometimes it is difficult. He struggled to settle, but he's working very hard and that is the most important thing.

"Not all players would be able to do that. I'm impressed with him as a man as well as a footballer. He's a very nice person and how he works is impressive. I never doubted his quality."

 

[JPRouve]

...What? Fellaini has never played in the Bundesliga. In 12/13 he was playing for Everton.

I think that it was the point.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I think that it was the point.

Ah well I feel an absolute idiot - fair play to @Kasper as I've completely missed the point on your post - apologies mate!

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Wait... even Son struggled it seems!!

https://www.espn.com/soccer/tottenh...fielder-son-heung-min-im-happy-to-be-here-now

Speaking after the win at Middlesbrough, Pochettino said: "He asked to leave after the Olympic Games but we decided he would stay with us. I didn't want him to go.

"You can see his reaction has been good. We try to give all the best to our players, but sometimes it is difficult. He struggled to settle, but he's working very hard and that is the most important thing.

"Not all players would be able to do that. I'm impressed with him as a man as well as a footballer. He's a very nice person and how he works is impressive. I never doubted his quality."

Son had a poor first season and was very close to leaving Spurs after one year:
https://cartilagefreecaptain.sbnati...purs-happiest-guy-in-world-north-london-derby

Anyone who argues that he hit the ground running is having a laugh - he had 4 goals and 1 assist from 28 league appearances (to be fair though he was subbed quite a bit - just about 1100 minutes).

 

[Boavista]

You can always try to find mitigating reasons for every transfer, but the fact is that they are the most high profile transfers from the BL to the PL in the last 3-4 years (apart from Kagawa and BFS). Small sample, recency bias yes. But interesting nonetheless.

I'm looking at Sancho and Konate to break that trend.

But if it's a small sample, and the mitigating factors (covid, injuries, clueless manager) are fairly obvious wouldn't you say that ignoring those would be misleading?

I didn't ignore the successes. So far I count 3 fast starters (Auba, Son, Kdb) and 5 or 6 slow starters (Thiago, Keita, Havertz, Werner, Mhki and possibly Sancho, Konate hasn't started in the first 3 games) for the highest profile transfers of the last few years.

It's about 2 to 1 against.

I'd say there are more examples. Firmino and Matip both became instant starting eleven players after joining, and both did well relative to how they were rated in Germany.

By the way Kagawa also started fairly well, even if he ultimately failed. But if you're just looking for players that are fast starters, I don't think you should discount players that in hindsight didn't reach expectations. So then you can include Kolasinac as well for instance.

Anyway it's getting confusing having to differentiate between players that instantly were a success and remained a success, players that took their time to become succesful, players that failed but started well, players that did ok in the PL but weren't actually that special in the BL etc etc

 

[spiriticon]

But if it's a small sample, and the mitigating factors (covid, injuries, clueless manager) are fairly obvious wouldn't you say that ignoring those would be misleading?

Well it's a small sample but actually we've actually covered most, if not all, the high profile transfers in the last few years for 3 different top tier PL clubs, each with different backroom staff and playing tactics. If all players that come become injury prone then actually I think the intensity of the league has something to do with it too.

Anyway, what I really want to know is roughly how long Sancho will likely need to settle coming from the BL. It's interesting to estimate it from recent experiences and of course it's not an exact science, but if I were Ole, I'd be dead curious about this detail.

 

[Kasper]

I think that it was the point.

Ah well I feel an absolute idiot - fair play to @Kasper as I've completely missed the point on your post - apologies mate!

No worries And I was also hoping someone would bite as the obvious analogies are transfers like Mkhitaryan, Kagawa, Keita etc.
Players get bought after one good year in a specific setup/a specific system and then underperform - irrespective of the league.
Also I think people severely overrate the expected "success" rate of high profile transfer. I remember the discussion of which top 10 most expensive transfers of all time were actually worth it - the answer is pretty grim, so "underachieving" seems often to be rather the norm than hitting the ground running. But peope want to look into alternative causation to have a satisfying explanation for something that seems wrong ("We/they spent so much money on him and he doesn't perform")