He wasn't bad at all, he was pretty good but his season was disturb by a lengthy injury.
Bundesliga to the Premier League
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Because he went through a nasty case of Covid.
He's not totally crap but definitely not what we expected. I still remember how much he struggled against the physicality of the PL. I actually felt bad for him and I have no doubt if SAF would have stayed on it'd be still the same.
It's not like SAF would magically transform him into some strong and fast player. He's very intelligent and technical, he simply lacked the physicality to play in the PL.
SAF season he was looking very promising for us. He was obviously bedding in but had a bad knee injury and still basically got a goal/assist every two games.
What can I say - I like writing a lot
I piss off people at work too with my lengthy mails.
Maybe it all boils down to what you said and maybe not. I mean - players leaving EPL to other leagues are not sure to be successful either, so there has to be something more than money involved, right?
You must have watched a different Kagawa I think. He surely had some good moment but overall he struggled so much I actually felt bad for him.
Sancho left England as arguably the most promising English player around his age, and established himself in Germany at a top player in that league. I'm not going to be particularly worried after one start and 2 sub appearance of a 21-year-old.
Now, it's strange how there is a fairly long-track record of Bundesliga guys not hitting the ground running or living up to expectations. But, I think part of that is historically Bayern picks off the top German players around the Bundesliga. Outside of Havertz, Werner, Gundogen (German born/raised but plays for Turkey) and Ballack, how many top German nationals have even come to the EPL? But, you can just look at our track record buying around Europe and you can find notable big money misses from Serie A (Veron), La Liga (Di Maria). We have done fairly well buying from PSV (Stam, RVN) and Sporting Lisbon (Ronaldo, Fernandes, Nani) for whatever reasons.
Now, it's strange how there is a fairly long-track record of Bundesliga guys not hitting the ground running or living up to expectations. But, I think part of that is historically Bayern picks off the top German players around the Bundesliga. Outside of Havertz, Werner, Gundogen (German born/raised but plays for Turkey) and Ballack, how many top German nationals have even come to the EPL? But, you can just look at our track record buying around Europe and you can find notable big money misses from Serie A (Veron), La Liga (Di Maria). We have done fairly well buying from PSV (Stam, RVN) and Sporting Lisbon (Ronaldo, Fernandes, Nani) for whatever reasons.
You'd have to be a particularly special level of stupid to write of Jadon Sancho after yesterday's match.
Kagawa was average, at best, in his first season. And he’s done nothing much since. At any club, under any manager. He’s just not as good a player as Fergie hoped.
Same Kagawa. Different opinion.
It's not strange, it's true for every leagues. It's just that for some reason people decided to create a theory for the Bundesliga.
The two most recent title winners in the Premier League are very much 'system teams', with highly team-oriented general play. Don't confuse 'Manchester United' with 'Premier League'. What you described here applies to us, yes - and it's holding us back, too.
This, in a nutshell.
Small mistake, Gündogan plays for Germany - if he plays, due to injuries and the quality of the alternatives he was very rarely first choice and sometimes not even part of the squad.
Not just Bundesliga, same was said about Serie A after few flop signings.
Timo "top German player" Werner: Bayern passed twice on him, even when he had a €25m price tag, failure for Die Mannschaft. Low pressure environment in Leipzig, still had some issues with noise in the CL. Can't believe he didn't impress. Must be the league.
Mkhitaryan: Klopp couldn't really get him going and probably would have sold if he didn't leave himself, mentally weak, had one good season out of three as Tuchel's pet in an extremely cohesive team. Can't believe he didn't work in a dysfunctional United team with tough love Mourinho at the helm. Really, I'm shocked, it must be because of leagues.
Kagawa: Excelled as a second striker in a highly functional Klopp team that milked transitions. I was so shocked he looked bad as a LW in a dysfunctional and static United side coached by Moyes. It has to be because of leagues.
Pulisic: Never recorded more than 3G+8A in Bundesliga, was marginalized by 18 year old Sancho and the legendary Jakob Bruun-Larsen in his final season, I can not believe he never lived up to his price tag. He recorded personal bests for G+A in England, but it must be because of the leagues regardless.
Sancho: Remember when everyone was gloating last season, because he was sitting on something like 0G4A at Christmas? Nevertheless...
People are just substituting knowledge of these players and football in general with the usual stereotypes.
Mkhitaryan: Klopp couldn't really get him going and probably would have sold if he didn't leave himself, mentally weak, had one good season out of three as Tuchel's pet in an extremely cohesive team. Can't believe he didn't work in a dysfunctional United team with tough love Mourinho at the helm. Really, I'm shocked, it must be because of leagues.
Kagawa: Excelled as a second striker in a highly functional Klopp team that milked transitions. I was so shocked he looked bad as a LW in a dysfunctional and static United side coached by Moyes. It has to be because of leagues.
Pulisic: Never recorded more than 3G+8A in Bundesliga, was marginalized by 18 year old Sancho and the legendary Jakob Bruun-Larsen in his final season, I can not believe he never lived up to his price tag. He recorded personal bests for G+A in England, but it must be because of the leagues regardless.
Sancho: Remember when everyone was gloating last season, because he was sitting on something like 0G4A at Christmas? Nevertheless...
People are just substituting knowledge of these players and football in general with the usual stereotypes.
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Out of the big 4 leagues though, it does seem to have fewer big name guys come over and become top players. I personally think its mostly due to Bayern generally stocking the gems from the league who are normally German internationals. It's interesting on a macro level, but it foolish to just apply it to anyone coming from that league since there are obvious exceptions like De Bruyne.
Yeah, I briefly confused his international history with Nuri Sahin due to their similar age and coming up at Dortmund around the same time despite ending up dramatically different post-Dortmund.
Top german players have historically remained in Germany, the Bundesliga has rarely been a destination for top foreign prospects and it has only become an interesting market in the last decade. So again it's not strange at all, there is nothing special happening. It's also important to keep in mind that by definition top players are the exception, you are not going to get a high percentage of top players transfered, it would be amazing if it was the case.
Any time I watch Bundesliga, the games are much quicker in tempo than the Premier League. It's hardly old-style Serie A.
It's difficult to go from one league and country to another, it's not like all players leave the Premier League and suddenly become the best players in other leagues they go to. It depends on player, the club and the situation.
You could go through any league and find examples of massive hits and misses from the league:
Eredivisie - Luis Suarez but also Davy Klaasen
La Liga - David Silva but also Kepa
Ligue 1 - Eden Hazard but also Pepe
Bundesliga - Kevin De Bruyne but also Timo Werner
Serie A - Mohammed Salah but also Andriy Shevchenko
Portuguese League - Bruno Fernandes but also Hugo Viana
I never dismissed the Covid situation
A simple sentence just got too much interpretation. He was struggling before the covid, took time (covid didn't help) and adapted. It's really simpleLiterally never heard of this player so just looked him up.
Everton signed him for £25m two years ago and he's pretty much been injured ever since
I doubt itCan't really figure out why, and it's hard to put it into words, but it looks as if the outplays came from very different source.
Maybe someone else will do a better job at generalizing this
You obviously could, but the argument is whether there is a larger probability of needing a much longer adaptation time if you come from the Bundesliga. In fact, I feel that even Ligue 1 players adapt faster to the Premier League so it's a bit of a wierd one.
At the end of the day, if you are a talented player you will adapt (Sancho will, I'm sure), but I just feel those from the Bundesliga take more time than players from other leagues.
It’s all good, I was being a melt.I never dismissed the Covid situation
I knew it wouldn't take long for this thread to pop up.
Who (besides Sala) came over from the Italian league and is bossing it in England?
Jorginho is UEFA Player of the Year apparently, so he'd have to count.
Without any football tactics credentials, I can say that purely from the 'eye-test' the Bundesliga seems a lot more open and fluid then the Premier League. It certainly feels like there are more transitions, and definitely more attacking opportunities where the boxes aren't packed.
If anything, it feels to me like the Prem is a fair bit more cagey and suffocating. I've always been a fan of the Premier League, but I think the inequity has really deteriorated the quality of the majority of matches. Given how much stronger the top 6 are, you tend to get half the matches every weekend being attack versus defense, which isn't a great spectacle.
The Bundesliga - again to me - feels like teams really go at each other a bit more, commit to attack and therefore it's honestly a better watch as a neutral.
It must also be a lot easier for an attacking player to thrive there.
If anything, it feels to me like the Prem is a fair bit more cagey and suffocating. I've always been a fan of the Premier League, but I think the inequity has really deteriorated the quality of the majority of matches. Given how much stronger the top 6 are, you tend to get half the matches every weekend being attack versus defense, which isn't a great spectacle.
The Bundesliga - again to me - feels like teams really go at each other a bit more, commit to attack and therefore it's honestly a better watch as a neutral.
It must also be a lot easier for an attacking player to thrive there.
PAUL POGBA. *dabs*
Wonder if KDB can be a part of this discussion since he actually briefly played in the PL before BL. But either way he would be an outlier because of the overwhelming individual brilliance.
Okay, that‘s two on the KdB and Gündogan level.
My point is, that there is a fixation on this board on „flops“ from the Bundesliga due to United having bad scouting (Kagawa/Miki) or bad luck (Hagreaves).
But quite some players have been way more successful in the Prem than in the Bundesliga. And i would assume that the quota isn’t worse than for example for players coming from Italy.
De Bruyne, Son, Gundogan, Firmino and so many others have seen great success in the premier league. I think it's more of a problem with our play style that makes these kind of players struggle to fit in at first. It's more of the opposite, Bundesliga stars generally do really well in the premier league.
I agree, I think Italy has had the fewest number of successes to the PL, France probably the most (despite not being the best) and Bundesliga somewhere in between.
I think what people fail to understand is that a transfer is always a risk. Just because a player worked in a certain environment doesn't mean he'll work in a different one as well. And what's important to consider is that going from Dortmund to Manchester United is about the biggest change of environment you can have because United is old school Premier League while Dortmund is hipster Bundesliga. The difference in approach not quality has to be night and day for a player making that transition. Sancho for instance has unreal qualities - he's incredible at advancing the ball between the lines, playing one twos and utilizing the runs of other players for his own body feints and dribbles. I honestly never saw a player in the Bundesliga who is so good at creating and finding the tightest passing lanes. But he's not pacey and not strong which means he won't work well in isolation. Although a player like Rashford IMO is worse than him, he has attributes that allow him to play to a certain level regardless of what his team mates do on the pitch. He can outpace a defender, he can score from a position you shouldn't even attempt shooting from based on probabilities, etc.
You can see what's possible when you pair Bundesliga coaching with the financial muscle of the EPL when you look at Chelsea or Liverpool. I guarantee you, Gündogan, Firmino, Havertz, de Bruyne, etc. wouldn't look as good in this United team either. If you want to truly aim for the stars again, you have to let go of the idea that you just need to sign more quality to compete for titles. No Sancho, Cristiano or Varane can carry you that last mile when the team isn't more than the sum of its parts.
You can see what's possible when you pair Bundesliga coaching with the financial muscle of the EPL when you look at Chelsea or Liverpool. I guarantee you, Gündogan, Firmino, Havertz, de Bruyne, etc. wouldn't look as good in this United team either. If you want to truly aim for the stars again, you have to let go of the idea that you just need to sign more quality to compete for titles. No Sancho, Cristiano or Varane can carry you that last mile when the team isn't more than the sum of its parts.
Does anybody here think Firmino has been that good, really? He's ok but to label him an outstanding player, well...
There's only Son, KDB and Aubameyang who's really done it, with KDB being the true outstanding Bundesliga talent in that pool. Gundogan is getting there but his first season was not great either.
Firmino, Ballack, Sane, De Jong, Dzeko, Mertesacker ...are just....ok. And everyone who's signed for United, past or present, has been a flop. The most disappointing one being Bastian fecking Schweinsteiger
There's only Son, KDB and Aubameyang who's really done it, with KDB being the true outstanding Bundesliga talent in that pool. Gundogan is getting there but his first season was not great either.
Firmino, Ballack, Sane, De Jong, Dzeko, Mertesacker ...are just....ok. And everyone who's signed for United, past or present, has been a flop. The most disappointing one being Bastian fecking Schweinsteiger
I think most of the good players (to PL) are from French league and Portuguese league, lately from La Liga too.
Haven't checked any tables, just going by what I remember.
Firmino was great when they won the UCL and came 2nd in the Prem. Gundogan has always been underrated for City before last season, people forget he was in midfield while KdB was injured for most of the season they got 100 points. And he was in the team of last season, how is that 'getting there'?
Similarly, Sane was the young player of the year during his time at City and was an electric player for them. If anything, he's been very disappointing in the BL after transferring from the Prem.
That's on United, surely. Especially in Schweinsteiger's case, he was obviously completely shot.
There’s loads. People need to realise that just because a player does well somewhere else and not in the PL, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re crap or the PL is an almighty fortress that only the truly elite can thrive in. There’s a lot of factors at play. The guy might not settle in terms of personal factors. They might be played out of position. There might be issues with teammates/coaches. There might be issues with an unsuitable style of play/formation in that team. And yes, they may also not take to the general type of football that’s played in the PL. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the PL has a way higher standard of football than everywhere else, it’s just that the style of football doesn’t suit everyone.
I know a lot of Liverpool fans who would choose Firmino as the most upgradable of their front three, and I've never been impressed with Sane. Gundogan, yeah ok, I can accept that he has been truly good and on the level of Son at least.
Well we have hits and misses of imports from every league, but the Bundesliga has been particularly disappointing for us. Not even 1 success. BUT, I'm confident Sancho will be the first.