Buying the best (of the rest) in the league

[AkaAkuma]

Theres been a number of discussions on what 'the united way' is, the ethos of the club - one of the aspects of Fergusons reign was always being ahead of the chasing pack and not allowing the gap to be bridged. We've allowed ourselves to be caught and surpassed in a number of ways.

One of these would be buying the best within the league. Even if there isn't an obvious need for it, its possible to make room for these players within the squad if you have a long term transfer strategy. I would suggest Juventus as being a good example of this.

Of course you can argue hindsight, but I think these players despite the CAFs evaluation of them at the time of transfer would have been smart and logical transfers:
Stones, Maguire, Van Dijk, Robertson, Kante, Mahrez, Mane, Richarlison, Arnautovic

While Pickford, Barkley & Walker would have been problematic to find a space in the squad, I think with foresight we could have found a way to make it work.

Looking forward, are there any noticeable players within the league whom you would sign without too much of a thought.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

James Maddison. Need to keep an eye on him.

 

[Deleted member 101472]

Most clubs in the world would want Kyle Walker not sure where the problem would have been fitting him in. Guy has 2 or 3 bad games a season and 35 solid ones where he gets the better of his opponent at both ends. Massively underrated player.

 

[Ekeke]

James Maddison. Need to keep an eye on him.

These are the players who have created most chances this season from corner kicks. Despite us being the physically largest squad, we don't particularly have a large threat from set pieces. Other than maybe when Fellaini is playing. Young has created 12 chances from his corners in comparison and he's in need of replacement in the team. So it would make sense for us to look for another player to deliver good balls into the box for our tall players. The problem is adding that player without weakening our general play.

For example Ryan Fraser is on that list. But he plays left wing and we have Martial. Not that he couldnt play on the right, but I'm sure you get the point. Now, Maddison sometimes plays on the left for Leicester but his main position is in the hole behind the striker.

Thats a position Mata has played at times this season, such as against Juventus. Maddison has the ability to compete with him, learn from him and replace him whilst also improving on Young's set piece delivery and making best use of the 1 thing thats different about our squad compared to the other top teams in the league, our physical height.

 

[Ekeke]

As for the better players in the league that arent at top clubs - Sigurdsson is 29 so too late really.

Richarlisson, Maguire, Wan-Bissaka, Michael Keane, Felipe Anderson, Matt Doherty, Maddison, Shane Duffy, Ryan Fraser and Ndidi would statistically be the players who are performing the best in that situation this season.

However there is obviously the issue of systems to take into account. Like with Matt Doherty doing well but playing RM in Wolves 3-4-2-1 system where hes basically a wingback. We dont play that system or position so theres a likelyhood of him doing so well for Wolves wouldnt translate to playing right back or right wing for us.

Then theres the fact that individual errors from CBs are pretty concerning, but I'm not sure any site logs a statistic of how many times each CB makes an individual error. So that would be a bit of a mystery with those players.

 

[Sky1981]

Theres been a number of discussions on what 'the united way' is, the ethos of the club - one of the aspects of Fergusons reign was always being ahead of the chasing pack and not allowing the gap to be bridged. We've allowed ourselves to be caught and surpassed in a number of ways.

One of these would be buying the best within the league. Even if there isn't an obvious need for it, its possible to make room for these players within the squad if you have a long term transfer strategy. I would suggest Juventus as being a good example of this.

Of course you can argue hindsight, but I think these players despite the CAFs evaluation of them at the time of transfer would have been smart and logical transfers:
Stones, Maguire, Van Dijk, Robertson, Kante, Mahrez, Mane, Richarlison, Arnautovic

While Pickford, Barkley & Walker would have been problematic to find a space in the squad, I think with foresight we could have found a way to make it work.

Looking forward, are there any noticeable players within the league whom you would sign without too much of a thought.

Can you imagine 5 years ago Moyes/LVG comes out with that list of purchase? We'd all be fuming thinking the Glazer's being tight on the purse. Imagine that there's a leak that instead of Depay, Scheneiderlin, Rojo, Di Maria, BFS we come out with Maguire, VVD, Robertson, Kante, Mahrez (Remind you that this is pre-Leicester winning the league).

So yes, hindsight is always a wonderful thing.

 

[Red_toad]

I'd say if things stay the way they are, we'll be looking for a lot of players in the summer, getting the best in the league, is going to be near impossible as the best players belong to the best clubs, who don't need the cash.

 

[Greek9]

Impossible if City exists, Pep always takes the ones he wants, and they are usually the best, which is the main reason they also keep dominating the league.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

I'd say if things stay the way they are, we'll be looking for a lot of players in the summer, getting the best in the league, is going to be near impossible as the best players belong to the best clubs, who don't need the cash.

I think this refers more to "the best of the rest" as in the best players from clubs not called Chelsea, Liverpool, City, Tottenham and Arsenal. Ok...maybe Tottenham as we do like to buy their players from time to time...

 

[AkaAkuma]

Can you imagine 5 years ago Moyes/LVG comes out with that list of purchase? We'd all be fuming thinking the Glazer's being tight on the purse. Imagine that there's a leak that instead of Depay, Scheneiderlin, Rojo, Di Maria, BFS we come out with Maguire, VVD, Robertson, Kante, Mahrez (Remind you that this is pre-Leicester winning the league).

So yes, hindsight is always a wonderful thing.

I'm not talking about 5-6 years ago, but the point in time they were transferred.

Kante, Van Dijk, Mane, Mahrez, Walker - sure things
Stones - more doubts, but close to a sure thing
Pickford, Robertson, Maguire, Richarlison, Arnautovic would have been speculative.

 

[Ekeke]

Impossible if City exists, Pep always takes the ones he wants, and they are usually the best, which is the main reason they also keep dominating the league.

They are just as likely to go for players from foreign leagues that they consider better. Same goes for us of course.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Impossible if City exists, Pep always takes the ones he wants, and they are usually the best, which is the main reason they also keep dominating the league.

Which is my point.

 

[AgentP]

Can you imagine 5 years ago Moyes/LVG comes out with that list of purchase? We'd all be fuming thinking the Glazer's being tight on the purse. Imagine that there's a leak that instead of Depay, Scheneiderlin, Rojo, Di Maria, BFS we come out with Maguire, VVD, Robertson, Kante, Mahrez (Remind you that this is pre-Leicester winning the league).

So yes, hindsight is always a wonderful thing.

When most of these players were actually bought (instead of randomly deciding to buy them in 2013), they were already playing at a very high level. Kante, Mahrez, VVD, Walker were already close to the best in EPL in their positions. Only Stones, Mane and Robertson were risky signings in the sense that there were doubts whether they could step up.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Most clubs in the world would want Kyle Walker not sure where the problem would have been fitting him in. Guy has 2 or 3 bad games a season and 35 solid ones where he gets the better of his opponent at both ends. Massively underrated player.

I lumped him in with Pickford and Barkley as his fee would have been problematic.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Another aspect of 'the united way' (Fergies method) was ruthlessness. He culled his squad when he saw room to improve it, even if it meant taking a step back to go forward. It's been discussed at length - the need to sell certain players, but I'm not sure its been highlighted as part of the successful workings of the club under Ferguson.

 

[AgentP]

Potential EPL targets for next season:
Richarlison, Neves, Maguire, Felipe Anderson, Madisson, Zaha and Wan-Bissaka

Richarlison can compete with Lukaku for the striker role. Would be an ideal signing with the only negative being it might push Rashford out.

Neves is a decent midfielder but I don't think he's good enough. Would prefer N'dombele from Lyon.

Same goes for Maguire. Better options available for similar price abroad. Skriniar would be my preferred choice.

Wan-Bissaka is a player we should be targeting. Him and Dalot to take over from Valencia and Young.

Madisson has good stats but somehow I don't think he's technically good enough. His current form might just be a purple patch. We need better players than him.

Felipe Anderson has been excellent. Hardworking and creative. But we already have Martial playing on the left wing. So unless it's for a CAM role, we should avoid him.

Zaha on the right wing would be a huge upgrade for us. But the player himself might prefer to go somewhere new.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

There is also the argument of how much premium should you pay for the PL player vs from foreign league.

As finances have improved it has been more difficult to poach from lesser clubs. There are other top clubs interested in these players, with the small club not so desperate to sell. Add the lack of success on the pitch and we are not as attractive as before.

At this point, I think we need to first get our stuff together independent of where the talent comes from, before we can go back to competing effectively for PL talent.

We got berbatov but cant get Kane

 

[AkaAkuma]

There is also the argument of how much premium should you pay for the PL player vs from foreign league.

As finances have improved it has been more difficult to poach from lesser clubs. There are other top clubs interested in these players, with the small club not so desperate to sell. Add the lack of success on the pitch and we are not as attractive as before.

At this point, I think we need to first get our stuff together independent of where the talent comes from, before we can go back to competing effectively for PL talent.

We got berbatov but cant get Kane

I think this is part of the problem with the senior management - it looks like they are focussing more on the foreign market. But looking at things historically and comparatively (Bayern, Juve) - successful teams have a core of players who have excelled lower down their respective leagues.

 

[broccoli]

Ruben Neves would look good here. Spraying long bullet passes behind the defense... not even Lukaku would screw those up!

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I think this is part of the problem with the senior management - it looks like they are focussing more on the foreign market. But looking at things historically and comparatively (Bayern, Juve) - successful teams have a core of players who have excelled lower down their respective leagues.

Juve and Bayern have won their last 7 and 6 league titles and do not have any fair competition in their leagues. Any young talent has no choice but to join them if he wants that level of success without going overseas.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

At this point, I think we need to first get our stuff together independent of where the talent comes from, before we can go back to competing effectively for PL talent.

We got berbatov but cant get Kane

Kane would be prohibitively expensive, player prices have sky rocketed. English captain, coming into his prime, 20+ goals a season, Levy tax, long contract, model professional.

One of the top striking talents in the game. I dont even know a ball park figure other than to say a truckload that maybe 1 or 2 clubs could afford.

 

[Bergman]

The days are long gone where a top club could go to one of the small clubs cherry pick their best player and offer a decent amount of money which said small club could hardly decline because it was the biggest source of income. It just doesnt happen in the premier league without parting with an exhorbitant fee.
It still works in La liga, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 though.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

The days are long gone where a top club could go to one of the small clubs cherry pick their best player and offer a decent amount of money which said small club could hardly decline because it was the biggest source of income. It just doesnt happen in the premier league without parting with an exhorbitant fee.
It still works in La liga, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 though.

Which is why these players have to be recognized earlier. Leicester got Maguire for 17m. We got Zaha for around the same but then foolishly sold him...

 

[Sky1981]

I'm not talking about 5-6 years ago, but the point in time they were transferred.

Kante, Van Dijk, Mane, Mahrez, Walker - sure things
Stones - more doubts, but close to a sure thing
Pickford, Robertson, Maguire, Richarlison, Arnautovic would have been speculative.

At the point of their transfer they're TOP players looking for moves. Kante didn't wnat to come to us. VVD at 75M is absurd. We bought Martial instead of mahrez and it wasnt so bad. Kyle Walker and Tottenham.. what could go wrong.
Stones at 50?
Pickford? We have De Gea
Robertson?
Maguire? 60M for maguire?

 

[Scroto Baggins]

The days are long gone where a top club could go to one of the small clubs cherry pick their best player and offer a decent amount of money which said small club could hardly decline because it was the biggest source of income. It just doesnt happen in the premier league without parting with an exhorbitant fee.
It still works in La liga, Bundesliga and Ligue 1 though.

There are a combination of reasons for this. And tbh, I like the fact it can be very difficult to just buy out smaller clubs best players now.

A lot falls then to your talent spotting, youth academy and development of young players. As a prime example there is no way Spurs could of gone out and bought a player the calibre of Kane.

Its all about picking up young talent and helping those players grow into the finished article.

You can still get some players for cheap if they are surplus to requirements at their parent club and agitating for a move. Moura was what 22mil? That seems a good buy in the current market.

 

[AkaAkuma]

At the point of their transfer they're TOP players looking for moves. Kante didn't wnat to come to us. VVD at 75M is absurd. We bought Martial instead of mahrez and it wasnt so bad. Kyle Walker and Tottenham.. what could go wrong.
Stones at 50?
Pickford? We have De Gea
Robertson?
Maguire? 60M for maguire?

Maguire was 17m when he went to Leicester. Many, including myself saw potential and a unique ability to play out from the back.

Van Dijk was expensive - but we are being quoted the same for serie A based defender s who we hope to become PL proven. van Dijk is and was proven.

Stones was suspect at the time, but the early praise is becoming justified.

Mahrez is an attacking right winger, transferred 4 yes after Martial. No comparison.

Robertson for 12m would have been good cover and rotation for Shaw.

 

[Sky1981]

Maguire was 17m when he went to Leicester. Many, including myself saw potential and a unique ability to play out from the back.

Oh really?

Van Dijk was expensive - but we are being quoted the same for serie A based defender s who we hope to become PL proven. van Dijk is and was proven.

Check out the vvd thread. It wasnt so long ago we're laughing at liverpool

Stones was suspect at the time, but the early praise is becoming justified.

Again check the stone thread. Most of us thinks he's accident waiting to happen

Mahrez is an attacking right winger, transferred 4 yes after Martial. No comparison.

Robertson for 12m would have been good cover and rotation for Shaw.

Like i say. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

We should never hired moyes
We should never bought di maria
We should hire poch from southampton
We should... should i go on?

Thing is we dont have the ability to see the future. It's easy thinking you had it right with maguire but the maguire that went to leicester might not made it if he moved to manchester. Different setups different game time different coach different expectations. You cant simply draw a straight line. Maguire would made his mistakes with us and have been benched long before he become the maguire of today. His early play as good as it may be may not be sufficient for united.

 

[iHicksy]

I feel like our scouting is just really, really poor.

 

[Beagle]

Another aspect of 'the united way' (Fergies method) was ruthlessness. He culled his squad when he saw room to improve it, even if it meant taking a step back to go forward. It's been discussed at length - the need to sell certain players, but I'm not sure its been highlighted as part of the successful workings of the club under Ferguson.

This is true. When he sold RVN I thought he'd lost it.

 

[SirAF]

Ruben Neves would look good here. Spraying long bullet passes behind the defense... not even Lukaku would screw those up!

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Most clubs in the world would want Kyle Walker not sure where the problem would have been fitting him in. Guy has 2 or 3 bad games a season and 35 solid ones where he gets the better of his opponent at both ends. Massively underrated player.

Yeah I found the OP including him in our maybe list odd, he's head and shoulders above Tony V and Young and would be one of our first names on our teamsheet at RB. He's made his mistakes, and I think he looked all over the shop too often in England's back three at the WC, but there's no doubt whatsoever he'd make our first XI.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Yeah I found the OP including him in our maybe list odd, he's head and shoulders above Tony V and Young and would be one of our first names on our teamsheet at RB. He's made his mistakes, and I think he looked all over the shop too often in England's back three at the WC, but there's no doubt whatsoever he'd make our first XI.

I was running out of steam by the end of the OP. My thinking on Walker is that I don't think we could have justified 55M on a fullback when there were more pressing needs.

 

[RedSky]

I feel like our scouting is just really, really poor.

We dont know how good our scouting is or how much say our Managers have in dismissing it. All scouts do is report and recomend players they think could work at United. It's then upto the Manager and Chairmen to decide which ones to go for.

Ultimately our scouting could be doing good work but our Manager chooses different players. It's difficult to know without having more information.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

I was running out of steam by the end of the OP. My thinking on Walker is that I don't think we could have justified 55M on a fullback when there were more pressing needs.

Prioritising in that way is understandable, but given we have Valencia and Young with too many miles on their respective clocks and Dalot with not enough on his it could be argued we need to add a first team RB, which will probably mean parting with that kind of cash. If Dalot is a goer we need to see him getting minutes soon as I don't think another season of Young/Valencia will be good enough.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Theres been a number of discussions on what 'the united way' is, the ethos of the club - one of the aspects of Fergusons reign was always being ahead of the chasing pack and not allowing the gap to be bridged. We've allowed ourselves to be caught and surpassed in a number of ways.

One of these would be buying the best within the league. Even if there isn't an obvious need for it, its possible to make room for these players within the squad if you have a long term transfer strategy. I would suggest Juventus as being a good example of this.

Of course you can argue hindsight, but I think these players despite the CAFs evaluation of them at the time of transfer would have been smart and logical transfers:
Stones, Maguire, Van Dijk, Robertson, Kante, Mahrez, Mane, Richarlison, Arnautovic

While Pickford, Barkley & Walker would have been problematic to find a space in the squad, I think with foresight we could have found a way to make it work.

Looking forward, are there any noticeable players within the league whom you would sign without too much of a thought.

Agree with the point.

But Maguire, Richarlison and Arnautovic aren't among the best in England. VVD and Mane are big misses. Robertson would have been a good addition too.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Another point would be that these types of transfers take time with a lot of leg work needed to get into pole position, ahead of any rival club.

 

[Mcking]

Agree with the point.

But Maguire, Richarlison and Arnautovic aren't among the best in England. VVD and Mane are big misses. Robertson would have been a good addition too.

Mane and Robertson weren't exactly among the best in the league when they moved. They only made that step up when they moved to Liverpool. I think the thread title is misleading.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Mane and Robertson weren't exactly among the best in the league when they moved. They only made that step up when they moved to Liverpool. I think the thread title is misleading.

Yeah but I mean at least Robertson was cheap. Maguire and Arnautovic are both pretty average and would cost a hefty amount. Mane was just in a week team. Pretty quickly became a monster of an attacker for Liverpool. Like VVD, this is the kind of Pl signing we should look at. Ones who are talented enough to start.

 

[AkaAkuma]

Yeah but I mean at least Robertson was cheap. Maguire and Arnautovic are both pretty average and would cost a hefty amount. Mane was just in a week team. Pretty quickly became a monster of an attacker for Liverpool. Like VVD, this is the kind of Pl signing we should look at. Ones who are talented enough to start.

I think the ships sailed on Arnautovic, Maguire and perhaps even Richarlison - the time to buy would have been before their last move.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I think the ships sailed on Arnautovic, Maguire and perhaps even Richarlison - the time to buy would have been before their last move.

Never wanted them to be honest.