Can we ever be as successful as Real Madrid?

[Skills]

Obviously catching up their European Cups is completely out of question, but I'm talking about having a period of domination similar to them. Or even Barcelona. It's one thing we've never managed.

Madrid have won more European cups in the last 5 years than we have in the entire history of our club. It's the same with Barcelona managing more in the last 12 years than us too. Both of these clubs (and Bayern, Juventus, Milan during their dominance) are run almost ruthlessly. The kind of ruthlessness that we lack.

For example could you imagine our club ever sacking a manager if he managed to win a league title? A league title here would give a manager a pass for the next 10 years even if he got us relegated. Or moving on from Ancelotti after he had won them La Decimal? Both of these moves in hindsight paid off big time and bought them even more success. None of these moves I ever expect our club to ever make in those situations. In fact there would be riots if it was ever bought in question.

Is the club inherently soft? Do the fans in general expect less? Are we just content with whatever success we get, and be glad for it? There's a recurring belief on here a lot that success is cyclic and now it's just our period to be glad for what we have and wait for the next time we'll be successful.

This doesn't seem to apply to these clubs though. Why does this inferiority complex run exclusively through our club (out of all the other major European clubs)? With this mentality it seems like the only way this club knows how to be successful is to fluke themselves on to another Busby or a Fergie.

 

[MrPooni]

The gulf in resources between Juve, Bayern, Barca and Madrid and the majority of their domestic rivals means they can afford to chop and change at will because the odds of them permanently falling behind the chasing pack are slim to zero and naturally that bleeds into their European campaigns. Winning begets winning. Just look at Juve for example, they were shoved down to Serie B with a 30 point handicap and simply brushed it off and went back to winning like it was nothing. That's not to say we're not a mess right now but it's worth considering when making side-by-side comparisons like this.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Not till we can freel excercise our true financial alongside good long term planing and on field management

 

[Irwin99]

Actually the 99 vs 08 thread brought it home that although our past teams were amazing, we kind of underspent and overlooked certain areas on both occasions instead of really making some key improvements that could have made us even stronger. Perhaps not so much with the 08 team as we were unlucky to come up against probably the best side of all time but I think you can say that on occasions we’ve let things slide.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

With owners that take out of the club rather than put in, while making atrocious footballing decisions - we'll be lucky to get back to even challenging for the PL, let alone the success levels of a European Giant.

We're shackled by the Glazers / Woodward and their methods of trying to run a football club.

 

[Treble]

It's a lot easier for Spanish (and Italian) teams to sign top (South American) players which kinda makes them more competitive in Europe.

 

[roonster09]

It's a lot easier for Spanish (and Italian) teams to sign top (South American) players which kinda makes them more competitive in Europe.

Italian teams can sign only 2 non EU players per year, or something like that. They can sign South Americans easily if they have dual nationality though.

I think there are same restrictions in La Liga too, regarding EU players.

 

[Treble]

Italian teams can sign only 2 non EU players per year, or something like that. They can sign South Americans easily if they have dual nationality though.

I think there are same restrictions in La Liga too, regarding EU players.

I meant also that they are more attractive for top players due to climate and culture. Barca/Real give top wages as well.

 

[adexkola]

feck Real Madrid.

 

[roonster09]

I meant also that they are more attractive for top players due to climate and culture. Barca/Real give top wages as well.

Yeah, culture thing is spot on.

 

[Eckers99]

What a point in time to ask this question! Wildly optimistic doesn't even begin to cover it.

 

[SirAF]

No.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

With owners that take out of the club rather than put in, while making atrocious footballing decisions - we'll be lucky to get back to even challenging for the PL, let alone the success levels of a European Giant.

We're shackled by the Glazers / Woodward and their methods of trying to run a football club.

True that £400m the Glazers have spent in the last few seasons really is a disgrace. And only second highest salary bill in world football.

Honestly who could win anything with these constraints.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

True that £400m the Glazers have spent in the last few seasons really is a disgrace. And only second highest salary bill in world football.

Honestly who could win anything with these constraints.

That's our money. Not theirs.

The Glazers take out of Manchester United, rather than put into it.

 

[Pughnichi]

Obviously catching up their European Cups is completely out of question, but I'm talking about having a period of domination similar to them. Or even Barcelona. It's one thing we've never managed.

Madrid have won more European cups in the last 5 years than we have in the entire history of our club. It's the same with Barcelona managing more in the last 12 years than us too. Both of these clubs (and Bayern, Juventus, Milan during their dominance) are run almost ruthlessly. The kind of ruthlessness that we lack.

For example could you imagine our club ever sacking a manager if he managed to win a league title? A league title here would give a manager a pass for the next 10 years even if he got us relegated. Or moving on from Ancelotti after he had won them La Decimal? Both of these moves in hindsight paid off big time and bought them even more success. None of these moves I ever expect our club to ever make in those situations. In fact there would be riots if it was ever bought in question.

Is the club inherently soft? Do the fans in general expect less? Are we just content with whatever success we get, and be glad for it? There's a recurring belief on here a lot that success is cyclic and now it's just our period to be glad for what we have and wait for the next time we'll be successful.

This doesn't seem to apply to these clubs though. Why does this inferiority complex run exclusively through our club (out of all the other major European clubs)? With this mentality it seems like the only way this club knows how to be successful is to fluke themselves on to another Busby or a Fergie.

I think you’re being a touch harsh re our record in Europe. We were brilliant in Europe for a period. Just unfortunate that arguably the greatest club team ever were knocking about at the same time. Prior to then we had regularly reached later stages. My biggest frustration is the restriction on players during the Schmeichel, Cantona, Kanchelskis era. Take that restriction away and i susoect we might have a couple more

 

[SirAF]

True that £400m the Glazers have spent in the last few seasons really is a disgrace. And only second highest salary bill in world football.

Honestly who could win anything with these constraints.

Missing the point. Have you looked at the total interest United have paid on the Glazer debt? Have you looked at the dividends the Glazers have taken out of the club? Now, that's their right naturally - but imagine what United could do in the marked without them (no sugar daddy needed, just let the club spend what it generates..).

 

[VorZakone]

Might be interesting to discuss United CL's campaigns per season and what went wrong.

 

[2 man midfield]

That level of domination requires more than the very best management. You need once in a generation level players as well, and we were unlucky ours jumped ship as soon as he won a Balon D’or.

Madrid having him, and Barca having Messi, Xavi and Inesta allowed them to remain at the top for so long. If Ronaldo had stayed here his whole career, we’d have at least another European cup, I’m sure.

 

[RedTillI'mDead]

That's our money. Not theirs.

The Glazers take out of Manchester United, rather than put into it.

They own the club, so they can take out what they want. So yes it's money they could otherwise have.

 

[roonster09]

That level of domination requires more than the very best management. You need once in a generation level players as well, and we were unlucky ours jumped ship as soon as he had a world class season or two.

Madrid having him, and Barca having Messi, Xavi and Inesta allowed them to remain at the top for so long. If Ronaldo had stayed here his whole career, we’d have at least another European cup, I’m sure.

Yeah, very good point about generational level of players. I don't think anyone would have thought Barca will win 4 CLs in 10 years before Ronaldinho joined. It all changes very quickly.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

They own the club, so they can take out what they want. So yes it's money they could otherwise have.

They do own the club, and they do take out what they want - that's exactly what's happening.

My point is that an owner that puts in, rather than takes out is what Man Utd need to get to the elite level again in the modern era

 

[SirAF]

Might be interesting to discuss United CL's campaigns per season and what went wrong.

1997 - missed a boatload of chances against Dortmund in SF, should have gone through.
1998 - fecked up against MONACO.
1999 - WIN
2000 - beaten in QF by a better side in Real
2001 - beaten in QF by a better side in Bayern
2002 - Knocked out in SF by Leverkusen/Barthez being a short arse, should have gone through.
2003 - Beaten in QF by a better side in Real, JUST though.
2004 - Beaten in first knockout round by Porto/Mourinho/Howard/linesman, should have gone through.
2005 - Easily beaten by Milan (Carroll..) in the first knockout round.
2006 - Out in the group stage, disaster.
2007 - Just beaten by Milan in the SF. Took a lead to the away match with a decimated defense (injuries). Should have done better.
2008 - WIN
2009 - Final, lost against one of the GOAT teams. Can't do much about that.
2010 - Beaten by Bayern in QF, SHOULD HAVE HELD ON. fecked by the ref/Rafael.
2011 - Final, lost against one of the GOAT teams. Can't do much about that
2012 - Out of the group stage, disaster.
2013 - Beaten by Real in QF, should have gone through. fecked by the ref.
2014 - Out by Bayern.
2015 - N/A
2016 - Out in the group stage, disaster
2017 - N/A. Won EL.
2018 - Out in first knockout round by Sevilla, disaster.
2019 -???

In a nutshell.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

feck Europe. Give me 5 league titles in 7 years again. I miss the week in week out title challenge with us being the winners of course.

2008 was great. But I adore us dominating the PL the most.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

feck Real Madrid.

This

 

[Skills]

Yeah, very good point about generational level of players. I don't think anyone would have thought Barca will win 4 CLs in 10 years before Ronaldinho joined. It all changes very quickly.

The question is then would our club have been ruthless enough to move on from Rijkaard after he had just delivered them their 2nd ever European cup the year before?

That move subsequently got them Guardiola who built arguably the greatest club side of all time. To have great players is one thing, capatalising on them is another.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Obviously catching up their European Cups is completely out of question, but I'm talking about having a period of domination similar to them. Or even Barcelona. It's one thing we've never managed.

Madrid have won more European cups in the last 5 years than we have in the entire history of our club. It's the same with Barcelona managing more in the last 12 years than us too. Both of these clubs (and Bayern, Juventus, Milan during their dominance) are run almost ruthlessly. The kind of ruthlessness that we lack.

For example could you imagine our club ever sacking a manager if he managed to win a league title? A league title here would give a manager a pass for the next 10 years even if he got us relegated. Or moving on from Ancelotti after he had won them La Decimal? Both of these moves in hindsight paid off big time and bought them even more success. None of these moves I ever expect our club to ever make in those situations. In fact there would be riots if it was ever bought in question.

Is the club inherently soft? Do the fans in general expect less? Are we just content with whatever success we get, and be glad for it? There's a recurring belief on here a lot that success is cyclic and now it's just our period to be glad for what we have and wait for the next time we'll be successful.

This doesn't seem to apply to these clubs though. Why does this inferiority complex run exclusively through our club (out of all the other major European clubs)? With this mentality it seems like the only way this club knows how to be successful is to fluke themselves on to another Busby or a Fergie.

It's a reasonable question to ask and God knows what the future holds. But there's a magic to our policy of believing in youth as well.

I'd take our last 20 years over Madrid's any darn day. I know it was Sir Alex and he's as rare as they come but for me it's a better story than RMs in the same period.

 

[SirAF]

feck Europe. Give me 5 league titles in 7 years again. I miss the week in week out title challenge with us being the winners of course.

2008 was great. But I adore us dominating the PL the most.

Agreed. My take is that the European Cup is more prestigious and bigger to win, but the PL is always more IMPORTANT because you have to be the top dog in your own country.

 

[roonster09]

The question is then would our club have been ruthless enough to move on from Rijkaard after he had just delivered them their 2nd ever European cup the year before?

That move subsequently got them Guardiola who built arguably the greatest club side of all time. To have great players is one thing, capatalising on them is another.

Yeah, we are not ruthless in sacking managers.

All I'm saying is no one thought Barca will dominate Europe and La Liga like they did some 10-15 years ago.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Agreed. My take is that the European Cup is more prestigious and bigger to win, but the PL is always more IMPORTANT because you have to be the top dog in your own country.

I've always been a league person to be honest. CL has more glory and 2008 was such a lovely high, but I want us to first and foremost be the biggest club/team in English football. Let's be ahead of the likes of City and Liverpool first, the team's we truly despise.

 

[Siorac]

1997 - missed a boatload of chances against Dortmund in SF, should have gone through.
1998 - fecked up against MONACO.
1999 - WIN
2000 - beaten in QF by a better side in Real
2001 - beaten in QF by a better side in Bayern
2002 - Knocked out in SF by Leverkusen/Barthez being a short arse, should have gone through.
2003 - Beaten in QF by a better side in Real, JUST though.
2004 - Beaten in first knockout round by Porto/Mourinho/Howard/linesman, should have gone through.
2005 - Easily beaten by Milan (Carroll..) in the first knockout round.
2006 - Out in the group stage, disaster.
2007 - Just beaten by Milan in the SF. Took a lead to the away match with a decimated defense (injuries). Should have done better.
2008 - WIN
2009 - Final, lost against one of the GOAT teams. Can't do much about that.
2010 - Beaten by Bayern in QF, SHOULD HAVE HELD ON. fecked by the ref/Rafael.
2011 - Final, lost against one of the GOAT teams. Can't do much about that
2012 - Out of the group stage, disaster.
2013 - Beaten by Real in QF, should have gone through. fecked by the ref.
2014 - Out by Bayern.
2015 - N/A
2016 - Out in the group stage, disaster
2017 - N/A. Won EL.
2018 - Out in first knockout round by Sevilla, disaster.
2019 -???

In a nutshell.

That Real side wasn't better. They finished 5th in La Liga that season and didn't have the likes of Figo and Zidane yet.

This was their starting line-up that night: Casillas, Salgado, Karanka, Campo, Carlos, McManaman, Redondo, Helguera, Savio, Raul, Morientes

Now don't get me wrong, this is a very good team, with some great players there. But not better than ours.

 

[Siorac]

For example could you imagine our club ever sacking a manager if he managed to win a league title? A league title here would give a manager a pass for the next 10 years even if he got us relegated.

Leicester fecking City sacked their manager the season after winning the title. So I can certainly see us sacking a manager the season after winning a title. Directly after it? Probably not but then I don't think that should happen, really. Sacking Del Bosque in 2003, for example, didn't exactly work out for Real either.

 

[Skills]

I've always been a league person to be honest. CL has more glory and 2008 was such a lovely high, but I want us to first and foremost be the biggest club/team in English football. Let's be ahead of the likes of City and Liverpool first, the team's we truly despise.

Tbf the question is not really about the league or the CL. It's more a question about, with the low expectations the club and the fans have can we ever truly maximise the on field potential of the club?

We might have best squad in the league, and everyone around the club would be happy with 1 league title in 3. The likes of Madrid and Barcelona want 3/3. No excuses.

 

[Skills]

Leicester fecking City sacked their manager the season after winning the title. So I can certainly see us sacking a manager the season after winning a title. Directly after it? Probably not but then I don't think that should happen, really. Sacking Del Bosque in 2003, for example, didn't exactly work out for Real either.

And the caf/United fans were more offended at his sacking than anyone to do with Leicester.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Tbf the question is not really about the league or the CL. It's more a question about, with the low expectations the club and the fans have can we ever truly maximise the on field potential of the club?

We might have best squad in the league, and everyone around the club would be happy with 1 league title in 3. The likes of Madrid and Barcelona want 3/3. No excuses.

It is true that we lack that sort of mindset. But do you think a story like SAF or the class of 92 or our record of devoping youngsters would exist if we did? I still find something soulless about Real Madrid. They're a club steeped in history but for some reason their romance these-a-days is akin to the likes City or Chelsea for me.

I too often get frustrated at our lack of clear and decisive cut throat decision-making. But one must also appreciate what we are and our own greatness too.

 

[SirAF]

That Real side wasn't better. They finished 5th in La Liga that season and didn't have the likes of Figo and Zidane yet.

This was their starting line-up that night: Casillas, Salgado, Karanka, Campo, Carlos, McManaman, Redondo, Helguera, Savio, Raul, Morientes

Now don't get me wrong, this is a very good team, with some great players there. But not better than ours.

That's fair.

 

[Fortitude]

The answer is no.

I hope to goodness one day this can be quoted and green smilied to death.

 

[Rojofiam]

1997 - missed a boatload of chances against Dortmund in SF, should have gone through.
1998 - fecked up against MONACO.
1999 - WIN
2000 - beaten in QF by a better side in Real
2001 - beaten in QF by a better side in Bayern
2002 - Knocked out in SF by Leverkusen/Barthez being a short arse, should have gone through.
2003 - Beaten in QF by a better side in Real, JUST though.
2004 - Beaten in first knockout round by Porto/Mourinho/Howard/linesman, should have gone through.
2005 - Easily beaten by Milan (Carroll..) in the first knockout round.
2006 - Out in the group stage, disaster.
2007 - Just beaten by Milan in the SF. Took a lead to the away match with a decimated defense (injuries). Should have done better.
2008 - WIN
2009 - Final, lost against one of the GOAT teams. Can't do much about that.
2010 - Beaten by Bayern in QF, SHOULD HAVE HELD ON. fecked by the ref/Rafael.
2011 - Final, lost against one of the GOAT teams. Can't do much about that
2012 - Out of the group stage, disaster.
2013 - Beaten by Real in QF, should have gone through. fecked by the ref.
2014 - Out by Bayern.
2015 - N/A
2016 - Out in the group stage, disaster
2017 - N/A. Won EL.
2018 - Out in first knockout round by Sevilla, disaster.
2019 -???

In a nutshell.

Pretty depressing, especially 2010 and 2013 for me. Throwing away a 3-0 lead...3 years later Cakir.

 

[GhastlyHun]

No one can ever be that successful, even Real don't know how they do it.

 

[Skills]

No one can ever be that successful, even Real don't know how they do it.

It's not the first time they've done it though. They won 3 in 5 in the late 90s early 2000s. And I think the standard/call it entitlement they have plays a big role in them doing it. They just constantly expect more.

 

[Raees]

The culture of the fan base plays a part, which attracts only the most ambitious of Presidents/CEO's which in turn leads to them going after the best players, be ruthless with anything less than the optimal and minimizes down-periods. Then you have the weather, generally more attractive due to language barriers for the South American continent and by not being in England - more sophisticated general mindset towards the game and its analysis.

It will be very, very difficult for United to turn around these factors which work against them and establish a period of sustained dominance in Europe. You already have the United fan-base split in the middle about what should be enshrined principles in terms of how we should play and being loyal to the hilt even when we're so far behind the pack means we will never had the mindset as a club in the current moment to quickly turn things around and establish that total dominance.