Which is why it is no surprise to me Conte has managed to make Chelsea look like the genuine title contenders they are. Different story with United however, and taking our league form over the last few seasons, it's not a surprise at all, it will take more than Mourinho's first season to get us back to being title contenders.
Castles: Mourinho believes Man Utd squad's broken. Will take at least two transfer windows to repair
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It can't be emphasised enough how completely our title-winning team has been dismantled. We've hardly any players left of established PL winning calibre and three (Pogba, Ibra and Depay) who've won a league elsewhere.
All the rest are players who might be good enough to be a key member of a title-winning team. You could say that about a whole bunch of players in PL teams that will be nowhere near the top at the end of this season.
Could you name some of the title winning experienced players Leicester had in their squad last year, or Spurs and Liverpool now?, both of whom are still pushing on upwards and onwards while we continue to stagnate, Or City when they won their first PL title under Mancini.
We have currently have in our squad, DDG, Valencia, Carrick, Rooney who've been big pieces in the sides who've won titles with us, Smalling, Young Jones etc etc who've been part of the those same title winning squads, Pogba, Ibrahimovic, Schweinsteiger, Blind etc who've won leagues elsewhere.
Compared to Spurs, Liverpool etc?
Less said about Rooney the better and Carrick can't start every game (more's the pity). My point stands about the rest. Lots of "maybes", signed or developed by managers previous to the current one. He might be able to mold our current squad into a title-winning team. He might decide that a few of them just aren't good enough and we need to sign better players to replace them.
If we/him are incredibly lucky then they'll all come good in this current season and Mourinho's done all the business he needs to do in a single transfer window. That's unlikely though, surely? Anyone who says our squad is definitely good enough to win the league this season is optimistic to the point of delusion IMHO.
I agree with your assessment of our season so far and I'm sure that we'll get better once key players will be in form but Chelsea's form of late is simply brilliant and much better than what we showed. Hopefully they won't continue in that fashion, it's reasonable to expect a decline from the likes of Alonso and Moses which will leave them too dependent on Hazard.
You'd think we've got a Championship quality side with the way some of you go on
Overall I agree the squad needs a few improvements, and Mourinho needs time, the performances are generally good, so we need to be patient.
But title winning experience is noted as a big positive for winning games down the stretch, being there before, having done it. Previous title winning experience so you don't collapse like Newcastle in 96.
But I don't see how it should hold water as a big excuse for not being able to win some games in October and November?
Actually only Hazard, Courtois, Costa, Azpili, Cahill, Matic have appeared in every league match. Cahill isn't special at all. So really only Costa, Matic and Hazard (from the title winning season) are performing exceptionally this season according to whoscored. Courtois hasn't had much to do. Cesc, Terry, Ivanovic, Oscar, etc are not big features anymore. I would say this is a vastly different team with a whole new system in place. If you hadn't changed system, you would probably still be struggling
The whole premier league is.
If Martial and Rashford played like they were post Jose and Miki played like he did before coming under Jose's wings, then yes we would certainly challenge. Just like Chelsea are challenging now that Hazard, Costa and Matic are performing again where as under Jose last season, they were 3 of the worst. Matic was double subbed
Agreed. If we're looking for excuses for our slow start that's a different discussion. I'm really only taking issue with the comments about how outrageous it is that Mourinho might think the squad overhaul isn't yet complete.
If they're playing centrally they can't play on the wings. So that doesn't answer my question.
Not sure what the rest of your post is about. All the Chelsea players you mention did actually win the league with Mourinho in charge. Fairly sure Hazard was voted best player in the league that season? Absolutely no doubt about the title-winning calibre of the squad Conte inherited. Same isn't true about ours.
I don't disagree that we still need changes to our squad as the players we bought post-SAF have largely been useless. But I would be wary of signing big players for big fees just for the sake of it. We need to find players who are hungry to perform at United and have the attitude compatible with the size and expectations at the club, and not just the big names.
Most important thing we can do to break this vicious cycle is to stick with Mourinho, trust his vision and judgement, back him in the transfer windows and then watch us conquer (probably).
So do you wanna be just about good enough to maybe win the Prem, or back in the European elite? Because I think we're around another 2 transfer windows for the latter
Chelsea have two world class attacker in Hazard and Costa. We have none.
Moses and Pedro are actually decent.
To win the prem nowadays, you have to be in and around the European elite. Leicester excepted obviously.
It doesn't mean that we have to throw big money on lots of stars, it can mean buying lots of good quality talents at good prices on fair wages, a revamp of the entire culture of the club. I trust Jose with this.
Spoil sport
You can't just discount last season. The past 3 years and probably this one say otherwise. I'm talking Barca/Madrid/Bayern when I say elite. No one in the Prem is of that quality in recent years, in terms of team and otherwise.
I don't think we were ever truly on a par with Madrid/Barca/Bayern as much as I'd like to think we were. I remember thinking post 1999 thinking now's our chance to capitalize and invest in the team to cement our status among the aforementioned but alas that never happened. To win the CL when we did was despite our lack of absolute ambition not as a consequence of it.
We weren't quite as good as Barca/Madrid but we were elite level, up there with them. There are more teams that are closer to that level now, I'll give you that, definitely. We should still be aiming for that elite though imo.
My sentiments exactly.
A few points:
1, The manager puts out the tactics and players need to implement them.
2, If you concede a goal against CFC, in 30 seconds, the manager cannot be blamed for that.
3, If Smalling stands off a CFC player, making error after error, you can't blame the manager. Had Jose subbed Smalling at half time, maybe we wouldn't have conceded 4 goals, but Smalling's (weak) confidence would be shot to pieces.
4, Then you have games where we dominate, create numerous chances but can't score. Again, tactically, we were great in these games, but our players could not put the ball into the net. Jose cannot be blamed for this. He never told our players to miss these chances.
5, The GKs of opposing teams were having the best performance of their lives, which did not help.
Incidentally, yesterday Burnley played and leaked 4 goals! So Heaton's MOTM at OT was a one-off performance. Again, not Jose's fault.
6, Then lets look at AFC. We dominated that game. Tactically, we were better, but we failed to win. Could Jose be blamed for letting in a goal @ 88 minutes? Not sure about that one. Some have said that Rashford was completely to blame. Some have said that Jose should not have made those subs, yet Mata was tiring. In fact, Rashford himself (who stood off Chamberlain) also looked tired.
Basically, the players need to stand up and be counted and not hide behind our managers who are getting fired, but the players responsible are surviving.
This manager sacking mentality perhaps has filtered into the heads of our players. Under Fergie, the players knew that if things when wrong, they'd be out the door. Under Moyes/LVG/Jose, the players believe that they are untouchable, so when they are losing a game, they won't be fighting on the pitch for their MUFC careers...where under Fergie, that's exactly what they'd be doing.
thats the business he is in though. LvG realised in his first year that his squad is filled with players who are either not good enough or not performing well. so he adopted 3-5-2 which wasnt pretty but got us wins and ultimately top 4. He did stuff like mcnair and young in defence which ultimately got what we wanted. Surely a vastly better manager is required to do at least that.Well if he did get the results what's the point in changing the players?What should Jose be doing now that he isn't already? In my opinion he's doing a good job so far, bit unlucky not to be in the top 4 as it stands.
surely ibra and pogba are? at least not that far off?
moses and pedro are decent the same way lingard and mkhitariyan are.
I'm 42 years old so I am old enough to remember back to 1999.
I can tell you this, that around those years, we were arguably the most feared team to play against. Basically, if you wanted a team to get battered, play MUFC and it will happen.
Juventus in 1999 who were recognised as one of the best teams in the World (best players, best manager etc), got battered in Turin that year, after they went up 2-0. As a fan, when we were 2-0 down, I was very relaxed that Juve would lose.
Our attack during that time was so good at the much heralded Rashford/Martial would not have even made the bench!
In the subsequent years, we did buy Veron, who was one of the biggest transfers at the time, specifically to keep us above everybody else.
We also broke British transfer records. We got Rio Ferdinand (who I believe was the most expensive defender in the World). We got R.V Nistlerooy who top clubs were after, but he joined us.
We spent a lot of money - people have short memories.
And a few years later...
During the 2006-2009 period, we were THE best team in the world!
I distinctly remember during the summer José was quoted as saying he asked for and needed 4 players. After he signed 3 (Zlatan and Bailey obviously being his absolute first choices in their positions) he said he needed one more big signing that the club were "working so hard on." That big signing would finally "bring balance to the team" José said. Signed. Done. £90-100m depending on who you believe.
He got every target he wanted with minimal fuss and spent more than everyone. The vast majority of pundits, journalists, and supporters of all clubs agreed that Man Utd "won" the transfer window.
Now we're hearing the squad is "broken" and needs radical changes still. Give me a break.
José himself was delighted with your board. Unlike his last year here at Chelsea his board actually provided him with everything he asked for and he loved it. As evidenced by his quotes saying the target this season is the title. He expected the squad to be good enough. How can it now be broken?
He got every target he wanted with minimal fuss and spent more than everyone. The vast majority of pundits, journalists, and supporters of all clubs agreed that Man Utd "won" the transfer window.
Now we're hearing the squad is "broken" and needs radical changes still. Give me a break.
José himself was delighted with your board. Unlike his last year here at Chelsea his board actually provided him with everything he asked for and he loved it. As evidenced by his quotes saying the target this season is the title. He expected the squad to be good enough. How can it now be broken?
What about a broken manager, how long will that take to repair? Chelsea turned it around very quickly.
Not sure Castle's really knows anything much? The article was a bit speculative?
In any case, the big problem is that the club does not have a plan or any direction in which it wants to go. At the moment, its priority is throwing money at fancy names or trying to get fancy names; and making top four - all to keep the sponsors happy etc.
There's no thought as to getting the players with the right mentality - even if they are not the most talented. No one knows if the club wants us to prioritise buying young potentials and letting them develop properly even if it means that we miss out on top four a while longer, or if it just wants experienced players and is not concerned with building for the future. They then go and hire someone whose not known for building teams, right off the back of hiring LVG - who actually works better with younger players and is more a builder than a results orientated manager. So now we have a mixture of players and a manager who doesn't do mixtures very well.
With this conflict, any manager that comes in is immediately put under extreme pressure. This extends to the players as well. Yes, some don't have the right mentality, but then again, we had a lot of winners and experienced players during the Moyes season and we still finished 7th. We also cannot compare our situation with other teams, no other team is under this much pressure - a lot of it stemming from our commercial interests as well. For e.g., we'll incur a penalty with Adidas if no top four this season - this creates panic in the boardrooms I would think, and it filters down to the team.
Our next problem is that apart from Valencia, De Gea? we don't seem to have the right players from the SAF regime. Carrick is fine, but quiet. Smalling is too soft, and everyone knows about Rooney - they aren't the type of players to take the team forward. Rooney especially doesn't have the requisite hunger anymore, which is understandable - but is not what we need from the captain.
What we need is a plan; a director of football to execute it; and then hire the manager and players to fit into our system (whatever that may be). We also need a balance between our commercial and football activities. I don't know what spiel Ed and Arnold give to prospective investors, but they may need to hold back from 'promising' too much - at least until the team is semi cohesive.
We can't keep throwing away money. We've got Rash and Martial and it would be a shame to stop their development and get in a lot of older players. Yes, we need the right mentality and experience but there needs to be a balance so that young prospects don't get shunted aside.
All in all the pressure is crazy. The club really needs to settle down and figure out where it's going.
In any case, the big problem is that the club does not have a plan or any direction in which it wants to go. At the moment, its priority is throwing money at fancy names or trying to get fancy names; and making top four - all to keep the sponsors happy etc.
There's no thought as to getting the players with the right mentality - even if they are not the most talented. No one knows if the club wants us to prioritise buying young potentials and letting them develop properly even if it means that we miss out on top four a while longer, or if it just wants experienced players and is not concerned with building for the future. They then go and hire someone whose not known for building teams, right off the back of hiring LVG - who actually works better with younger players and is more a builder than a results orientated manager. So now we have a mixture of players and a manager who doesn't do mixtures very well.
With this conflict, any manager that comes in is immediately put under extreme pressure. This extends to the players as well. Yes, some don't have the right mentality, but then again, we had a lot of winners and experienced players during the Moyes season and we still finished 7th. We also cannot compare our situation with other teams, no other team is under this much pressure - a lot of it stemming from our commercial interests as well. For e.g., we'll incur a penalty with Adidas if no top four this season - this creates panic in the boardrooms I would think, and it filters down to the team.
Our next problem is that apart from Valencia, De Gea? we don't seem to have the right players from the SAF regime. Carrick is fine, but quiet. Smalling is too soft, and everyone knows about Rooney - they aren't the type of players to take the team forward. Rooney especially doesn't have the requisite hunger anymore, which is understandable - but is not what we need from the captain.
What we need is a plan; a director of football to execute it; and then hire the manager and players to fit into our system (whatever that may be). We also need a balance between our commercial and football activities. I don't know what spiel Ed and Arnold give to prospective investors, but they may need to hold back from 'promising' too much - at least until the team is semi cohesive.
We can't keep throwing away money. We've got Rash and Martial and it would be a shame to stop their development and get in a lot of older players. Yes, we need the right mentality and experience but there needs to be a balance so that young prospects don't get shunted aside.
All in all the pressure is crazy. The club really needs to settle down and figure out where it's going.
Same for Mickey T id imagine.
I see your point but I am glad that Mourinho didn't bring more than 4 players. We have had an incredible turnover of players over the years and I want to minimise further large scale disruption to the team - incremental changes to the squad is the way to go.I distinctly remember during the summer José was quoted as saying he asked for and needed 4 players. After he signed 3 (Zlatan and Bailey obviously being his absolute first choices in their positions) he said he needed one more big signing that the club were "working so hard on." That big signing would finally "bring balance to the team" José said. Signed. Done. £90-100m depending on who you believe.
He got every target he wanted with minimal fuss and spent more than everyone. The vast majority of pundits, journalists, and supporters of all clubs agreed that Man Utd "won" the transfer window.
Now we're hearing the squad is "broken" and needs radical changes still. Give me a break.
José himself was delighted with your board. Unlike his last year here at Chelsea his board actually provided him with everything he asked for and he loved it. As evidenced by his quotes saying the target this season is the title. He expected the squad to be good enough. How can it now be broken?
But yes, Mourinho likely thought he would be able to turn around the performances of many existing players, and is possibly not so sure anymore.
And the chest bumping on this site over the transfer window was through the roof.I distinctly remember during the summer José was quoted as saying he asked for and needed 4 players. After he signed 3 (Zlatan and Bailey obviously being his absolute first choices in their positions) he said he needed one more big signing that the club were "working so hard on." That big signing would finally "bring balance to the team" José said. Signed. Done. £90-100m depending on who you believe.
He got every target he wanted with minimal fuss and spent more than everyone. The vast majority of pundits, journalists, and supporters of all clubs agreed that Man Utd "won" the transfer window.
Now we're hearing the squad is "broken" and needs radical changes still. Give me a break.
José himself was delighted with your board. Unlike his last year here at Chelsea his board actually provided him with everything he asked for and he loved it. As evidenced by his quotes saying the target this season is the title. He expected the squad to be good enough. How can it now be broken?
unfortunately a fair question to ask.
To be fair, this is only January and next summers transfer window. Don't we all agree we won't be at a level we want to be at until Mourinho has had a crack at building his own team?
If we sign one or two quality players in January and have another summer like the one just gone, we'll be in a very good position come the start of next season.
My only surprise is that this wasn't stated to take longer than two transfer windows. I think someone is being ambitious.
If we sign one or two quality players in January and have another summer like the one just gone, we'll be in a very good position come the start of next season.
My only surprise is that this wasn't stated to take longer than two transfer windows. I think someone is being ambitious.
It's almost as if he has a different assessment about our squad after actually getting to work with them.I distinctly remember during the summer José was quoted as saying he asked for and needed 4 players. After he signed 3 (Zlatan and Bailey obviously being his absolute first choices in their positions) he said he needed one more big signing that the club were "working so hard on." That big signing would finally "bring balance to the team" José said. Signed. Done. £90-100m depending on who you believe.
He got every target he wanted with minimal fuss and spent more than everyone. The vast majority of pundits, journalists, and supporters of all clubs agreed that Man Utd "won" the transfer window.
Now we're hearing the squad is "broken" and needs radical changes still. Give me a break.
José himself was delighted with your board. Unlike his last year here at Chelsea his board actually provided him with everything he asked for and he loved it. As evidenced by his quotes saying the target this season is the title. He expected the squad to be good enough. How can it now be broken?
Shocker I know.
Why would you appoint Jose Mourinho as your manager if it was recognised that a massive rebuilding job had to be done (I agree we do need to get rid of a lot of players but there is the potential of a decent, top 4 squad)? This is a manager who has no reputation for developing or really trusting young players and who has never lasted more than 3 years at a club due to his short-termist, high intensity nature wearing off after a while.
I think that until structural changes are made and we have more people in senior positions who are focused on an actual strategy we're not going to improve significantly, we've tried to take a short cut by hiring the superstar manager and now that we're well off the pace in terms of points, quality of squad and performances it's now apparently the case that we're pretending he's the man to rebuild as part of a longer term project.
I think that until structural changes are made and we have more people in senior positions who are focused on an actual strategy we're not going to improve significantly, we've tried to take a short cut by hiring the superstar manager and now that we're well off the pace in terms of points, quality of squad and performances it's now apparently the case that we're pretending he's the man to rebuild as part of a longer term project.
Fergie did leave a mess, I wish he would have invested better before quitting.
I do not think he would have made these complaints in August.
What worries me is we have a manager who has never shown that he can maintain and improve a team over the long term.