Chelsea 2016/17 - Very Content

Treble_Winning

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are Utd in danger of being over rated by you as well unless they start winning "majors" soon?
I admit I have my biases. But on the whole, I find that the majority of people here under rate UTD. For example - many have given up hope of catching Spurs despite us being only 5 points behind them, with 14 games left to play.

Why can't we just enjoy the football that our team is playing? Why is there a need to be so critical of everything? We are on a 15 game unbeaten run - but people are quick to point out that we are still sixth (even though we have gained points on almost every team other than Chelsea). We played well against Leicester and showed ruthlessness and efficiency - but people are quick to criticise Mourinho for not bringing Martial on. Zlatan and Mata both scored, yet people were clamouring for them to get subbed off. Why not just get behind our team and strap ourselves in for the ride? Why not have faith in the team and the manager - that things are going in the right direction?

I don't hate Chelsea or Arsenal. I'm not jealous of them. I don't think any UTD fan needs to be jealous of them. But it seems that pro-UTD comments are frowned upon, that's not really balanced is it?

There are some comments that are much more delusional than any pro-UTD opinions I've expressed. For instance, rating Luiz as a better passer than Pogba (?) and stating that he is the best defender in the league (!!). Or rating Conte above Mourinho or even equal to Mourinho. Which is absurd when you consider the actual trophies they've won.
 

Orc

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I admit I have my biases. But on the whole, I find that the majority of people here under rate UTD. For example - many have given up hope of catching Spurs despite us being only 5 points behind them, with 14 games left to play.

Why can't we just enjoy the football that our team is playing? Why is there a need to be so critical of everything? We are on a 15 game unbeaten run - but people are quick to point out that we are still sixth (even though we have gained points on almost every team other than Chelsea). We played well against Leicester and showed ruthlessness and efficiency - but people are quick to criticise Mourinho for not bringing Martial on. Zlatan and Mata both scored, yet people were clamouring for them to get subbed off. Why not just get behind our team and strap ourselves in for the ride? Why not have faith in the team and the manager - that things are going in the right direction?

I don't hate Chelsea or Arsenal. I'm not jealous of them. I don't think any UTD fan needs to be jealous of them. But it seems that pro-UTD comments are frowned upon, that's not really balanced is it?
Didn't your unbeaten run end against Hull? Or have y erased that from memory like José did?
 

Treble_Winning

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Didn't your unbeaten run end against Hull? Or have y erased that from memory like José did?
Were we beaten by Hull? Or are we living in a world of "alternative facts"?

Edit - I am referring to the league game
 

Orc

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Were we beaten by Hull? Or are we living in a world of "alternative facts"?

Edit - I am referring to the league game
I just think people need to cool it when speaking of this unbeaten run you're on in the league. I think you won only once against a quality opponent and that was Spurs.
 

Treble_Winning

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I just think people need to cool it when speaking of this unbeaten run you're on in the league. I think you won only once against a quality opponent and that was Spurs.
No offence, but didn't you lose to Spurs?

At the end of the day you can only beat whoever you are playing on the day, right?

Our achievement shouldn't be diminished by the fact that we "only beat Spurs". An unbeaten run is defined by the number of games without losing, not the identity of your opponents.
 

Orc

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No offence, but didn't you lose to Spurs?

At the end of the day you can only beat whoever you are playing on the day, right?

Our achievement shouldn't be diminished by the fact that we "only beat Spurs". An unbeaten run is defined by the number of games without losing, not the identity of your opponents.
Sorry, but I'm just not impressed with an unbeaten run that includes loads of draws. Matches you should have won but didn't shouldn't be something to gloat about.

The run we were on was impressive.
 

Treble_Winning

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Sorry, but I'm just not impressed with an unbeaten run that includes loads of draws. Matches you should have won but didn't shouldn't be something to gloat about.

The run we were on was impressive.
Well, that's one way of looking at it - and I will admit that UTD should have won many of those drawn games. We created chances, but our finishing was poor. We simply weren't efficient or ruthless enough. How's that for a balanced opinion?

However I will say this - we are a work in progress. Mourinho is rebuilding the side. What he has done is that UTD are now bloody hard to beat. No one has beaten us since October and that's a pretty long time. Chelsea, while hard to beat, have actually lost a game recently (to Spurs) in which they were tactically outmatched and completely smothered. You also have to understand that Chelsea are a ready made championship side, they won the title in 2015 with 90% of the same players.

UTD's fundamentals are now being built, once we add efficiency and ruthlessness to our game we will look a lot more menacing. The game against Leicester was an example of this starting to click. We killed them within the span of 1 minute. We were playing not so well, but then, suddenly, boom, 2-0, game over. That's what we are going to be capable of doing consistently. That's what Mourinho brings to the table.
 

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Well, that's one way of looking at it - and I will admit that UTD should have won many of those drawn games. We created chances, but our finishing was poor. We simply weren't efficient or ruthless enough. How's that for a balanced opinion?

However I will say this - we are a work in progress. Mourinho is rebuilding the side. What he has done is that UTD are now bloody hard to beat. No one has beaten us since October and that's a pretty long time. Chelsea, while hard to beat, have actually lost a game recently (to Spurs) in which they were tactically outmatched and completely smothered. You also have to understand that Chelsea are a ready made championship side, they won the title in 2015 with 90% of the same players.

UTD's fundamentals are now being built, once we add efficiency and ruthlessness to our game we will look a lot more menacing. The game against Leicester was an example of this starting to click. We killed them within the span of 1 minute. We were playing not so well, but then, suddenly, boom, 2-0, game over. That's what we are going to be capable of doing consistently. That's what Mourinho brings to the table.
Great post. Not so difficult keeping your passionate head fair and insightful then? Next year Utd will rock the league and you this board ehehe.
 

Orc

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Well, that's one way of looking at it - and I will admit that UTD should have won many of those drawn games. We created chances, but our finishing was poor. We simply weren't efficient or ruthless enough. How's that for a balanced opinion?

However I will say this - we are a work in progress. Mourinho is rebuilding the side. What he has done is that UTD are now bloody hard to beat. No one has beaten us since October and that's a pretty long time. Chelsea, while hard to beat, have actually lost a game recently (to Spurs) in which they were tactically outmatched and completely smothered. You also have to understand that Chelsea are a ready made championship side, they won the title in 2015 with 90% of the same players.

UTD's fundamentals are now being built, once we add efficiency and ruthlessness to our game we will look a lot more menacing. The game against Leicester was an example of this starting to click. We killed them within the span of 1 minute. We were playing not so well, but then, suddenly, boom, 2-0, game over. That's what we are going to be capable of doing consistently. That's what Mourinho brings to the table.
We've lost 1 single match against our closest title rival at their place in the last 18 PL matches I believe. That's far more impressive than what you've done. Not even remotely comparable, really.

And this ridiculous narrative you keep posting about how Conte has inherited this great, "ready made" side in order to legitimize what José is doing is laughable and frankly embarrassing. Mourinho walked into a significantly better situation that Conte did. WE FINISHED 10th! You barely missed out on a CL place!
 

africanspur

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Chelsea are going to absolutely walk this PL title. The only thing stopping them from a records points total will be if they lsoe focus near the end once they've won it imo.
 

Orc

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Chelsea are going to absolutely walk this PL title. The only thing stopping them from a records points total will be if they lsoe focus near the end once they've won it imo.
Said in another thread that if you guys leave Anfield with 3 points you'll stick relatively close to us for a while.
 

africanspur

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Said in another thread that if you guys leave Anfield with 3 points you'll stick relatively close to us for a while.
Possibly and it would be great but you just don't look like dropping points to any team outside of the top 6 really.

Think the only thing that would really open it up would be a set of injuries to your team (I read that your starting eleven has collectively missed 3 games only throughout the league season so far? Incredible if true) and Man City/ us to go on a run that I don't think either of us are necessarily capable of tbh.

Still hope so for the interest of the league at least.
 

Francoruud

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Possibly and it would be great but you just don't look like dropping points to any team outside of the top 6 really.

Think the only thing that would really open it up would be a set of injuries to your team (I read that your starting eleven has collectively missed 3 games only throughout the league season so far? Incredible if true) and Man City/ us to go on a run that I don't think either of us are necessarily capable of tbh.

Still hope so for the interest of the league at least.
Just want to point out one thing (and this isn't about you) on how pundits have been saying we've been very lucky with no injuries in the team. Yeah but the thing is....we hardly ever get any serious injuries. Even the short term ones rarely happen. And this is stretching back to pre Abramovich since at least 2000 but especially in the Abramovich era. The only real serious injury I can really remember an important player getting was Essien. We've had the odd Courtois injury and Hazard injury last season and the odd Terry injury in 2013 but that's really just about it. I think it's a testament to our medical team (granted I know the medical team can't save you from freak injuries on the pitch but still). If it happens every season but doesn't happen one season then that's luck. But when it becomes a trend for 5, 10, 15 years then you can't call it luck.

Neville, Carragher and all them boys need to have this pointed out to them.
 

Treble_Winning

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Just want to point out one thing (and this isn't about you) on how pundits have been saying we've been very lucky with no injuries in the team. Yeah but the thing is....we hardly ever get any serious injuries. Even the short term ones rarely happen. And this is stretching back to pre Abramovich since at least 2000 but especially in the Abramovich era. The only real serious injury I can really remember an important player getting was Essien. We've had the odd Courtois injury and Hazard injury last season and the odd Terry injury in 2013 but that's really just about it. I think it's a testament to our medical team (granted I know the medical team can't save you from freak injuries on the pitch but still). If it happens every season but doesn't happen one season then that's luck. But when it becomes a trend for 5, 10, 15 years then you can't call it luck.

Neville, Carragher and all them boys need to have this pointed out to them.
If true, then Chelsea have got the best doctors and physios. About time UTD also started to look into getting some serious upgrades in that department.

That said, wasn't hazard "injured" last season? Or is that just an explanation for poor form? Like how Costa was "injured" when Conte had a bust up with him regarding the move to China, :)
 

Treble_Winning

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And this ridiculous narrative you keep posting about how Conte has inherited this great, "ready made" side in order to legitimize what José is doing is laughable and frankly embarrassing. Mourinho walked into a significantly better situation that Conte did. WE FINISHED 10th! You barely missed out on a CL place!
There is no "narrative", nor am I trying to "legitimise" anything. I am merely interested in looking at what has actually happened and not whitewashing history.

Yes, Chelsea finished 10th. But I think everyone agrees that last season was a complete anomaly, a statistical outlier. It remains a mystery to many.

But if you take that aside, in the two seasons prior, Chelsea were third and first, and the third place finish was a very close one in which you were in the title race throughout. The team had grown accustomed to challenging for the title, and had actually won the title, with exactly the same core of players such as Courtois, Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Willian, Matic etc. The only real additions to the team this season were Alonso and Kante. So it is not like Conte inherited a mid table side who had no prior experience of challenging for the title.

Mourinho on the other hand inherited a UTD side that had finished 7th, 4th and 5th, with no involvement in any title races in the prior 3 years. The core of the team had to be rebuilt, with new additions such as Mhkitaryan, Bailly, Pogba and Zlatan, all of whom are key elements of the "new" UTD team.

Yes, Conte changed Chelsea's formation and all that. But is that really so groundbreaking? Or is it just receiving a lot of attention because the team finished in a false position last season and the contrasting optics are especially visible even though, looking at the last 4 seasons (including this one) linearly, what is actually happening is that last season was an anomaly, and Chelsea are simply returning back to how they normally would have been anyway?

Guardiola changes formation regularly from game to game, but because City didn't finish 10th last season, maybe it isn't getting that much attention as compared to Conte?

Like it or not, Conte has inherited a ready made title challenging squad, that actually did win the title (albeit one that had a horrific blip). He made them win again, but all he has done is restored them back to their "normal" level - he isn't making them play at a higher level. It's not like he is leading the league with Leicester or anything. And who built the foundations of this title challenging squad? It was none other than Jose - majority of Conte's key players were signed by him.

You may not like it but it's the truth - not some conspiracy "narrative" that has been hatched to legitimise Mourinho.
 

unbeatabla

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Just want to point out one thing (and this isn't about you) on how pundits have been saying we've been very lucky with no injuries in the team. Yeah but the thing is....we hardly ever get any serious injuries. Even the short term ones rarely happen. And this is stretching back to pre Abramovich since at least 2000 but especially in the Abramovich era. The only real serious injury I can really remember an important player getting was Essien. We've had the odd Courtois injury and Hazard injury last season and the odd Terry injury in 2013 but that's really just about it. I think it's a testament to our medical team (granted I know the medical team can't save you from freak injuries on the pitch but still). If it happens every season but doesn't happen one season then that's luck. But when it becomes a trend for 5, 10, 15 years then you can't call it luck.

Neville, Carragher and all them boys need to have this pointed out to them.
Yeah I noticed that too. Last real injury crisis I can remember was in autumn/winter of 2010/11. Apart from that, we've had the odd player missing, but very rarely more than 2 or 3 at the time, which compared to other teams is very little. Either the players we have are just not very injury prone or we have a really good team of physios. I guess it's a bit of both.

@Treble_Winning
I agree that last year was a freak season, and that we have a squad capable of challenging and already used to winning things, but what Conte has achieved is still remarkable and shouldn't be downplayed.
Conte picked them back up again, got them believing in his ideas and methods, and even more importantly themselves, and found a system that helps accentuate our players' strenghts and masks their weaknesses.

Also the narrative that this is basically Mourinho's team is only somewhat true. With Kante, Luiz, Moses and Alonso we have 4 players in our starting eleven that weren't here last season, and with Ivanovic, Mikel, Ramires and Oscar 4 players who were important parts of that 2014/15 title winning squad, are gone.

So my conclusion is that while Mourinho should be given credit for turning us from a team that hadn't been able to challenge for the title since 2010/11, to a team of winners, Conte isn't just feeding off his work, but doing very much his own thing, which was very much needed after the epic collapse last season.
 
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Supermonkey

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There is no "narrative", nor am I trying to "legitimise" anything. I am merely interested in looking at what has actually happened and not whitewashing history.

Yes, Chelsea finished 10th. But I think everyone agrees that last season was a complete anomaly, a statistical outlier. It remains a mystery to many.

But if you take that aside, in the two seasons prior, Chelsea were third and first, and the third place finish was a very close one in which you were in the title race throughout. The team had grown accustomed to challenging for the title, and had actually won the title, with exactly the same core of players such as Courtois, Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Willian, Matic etc. The only real additions to the team this season were Alonso and Kante. So it is not like Conte inherited a mid table side who had no prior experience of challenging for the title.

Mourinho on the other hand inherited a UTD side that had finished 7th, 4th and 5th, with no involvement in any title races in the prior 3 years. The core of the team had to be rebuilt, with new additions such as Mhkitaryan, Bailly, Pogba and Zlatan, all of whom are key elements of the "new" UTD team.

Yes, Conte changed Chelsea's formation and all that. But is that really so groundbreaking? Or is it just receiving a lot of attention because the team finished in a false position last season and the contrasting optics are especially visible even though, looking at the last 4 seasons (including this one) linearly, what is actually happening is that last season was an anomaly, and Chelsea are simply returning back to how they normally would have been anyway?

Guardiola changes formation regularly from game to game, but because City didn't finish 10th last season, maybe it isn't getting that much attention as compared to Conte?

Like it or not, Conte has inherited a ready made title challenging squad, that actually did win the title (albeit one that had a horrific blip). He made them win again, but all he has done is restored them back to their "normal" level - he isn't making them play at a higher level. It's not like he is leading the league with Leicester or anything. And who built the foundations of this title challenging squad? It was none other than Jose - majority of Conte's key players were signed by him.

You may not like it but it's the truth - not some conspiracy "narrative" that has been hatched to legitimise Mourinho.
Its not too much of a mystery why chelsea finished 10th last season. The idea that the main reason (some say only!) Is because the players downed tools is just lazy.

The title winning defence of the year before was Ivanovic-Cahill-Terry-Azpi. The wingers were expected to come back back almost as wingbacks as the fullbacks essentially tucked in to a 4 man cb line when we didn't have the ball. Terry and Cahill were heavily protected.

Last year, Jose tried to play football like we did at the start of the title winning season until December. When matic was on fire and Fabregas was running matches with Costa and Hazard. The 5-2 loss to spurs changed everything. Defensively, the team became so nervous afterwards and the entire league campaign afterwards was based on essentially having 4cbs and wingers than tracked back as fullbacks. Oh, and then give the ball to hazard and hope we win the game. That was the pattern from January onwards.

When Mourinho tried to play the more expansive football pre Spurs loss, a few major differences occured overnight. Ivanovic did not age well and seemed to be one of those players who decline almost overnight. Cahill was no longer protected with many players around him, neither was Terry who were playing a surprisingly high line at the start of 15/16 because of how much higher the team was playing. Without Hazard tracking back, Azpi had to leave Terry's side and deal with winger and fullback.

Matic hadnt played a decent game since he almost had his leg broken in the Burnley match the year before, the main thing which suffered was his tackling. Fabregas seemed to go the similar route to ivanovic in that he just couldn't keep up with the leagues midfielders. The Man city game at the bridge showed just how easily somewhat speedy players could walk through the midfield last season.

Our defence and midfield was a shambles. A mix of players who were not physically up to playing premier league football when they werent sitting deep without the ball and then countering into space. It didn't help that the club had a mini tour right after the season finished and then started pre season witha two week break. Players like Costa and Hazard came back fat.

For the most part i dont blame Mourinho. He was very unlucky to have a number of first team players he relied upon to become physically useless or have some weird mental block (matic). But he was far from blameless and showed some of his shortcomings as a manger.

Though he was unlucky not to get the players we wanted in the summer (Pogba and Stones) it would have been just a shambles with stones anyway and there is nothing to suggest Pohba would have helped the defensive problems in any meaningful way. His misuse of Felipe luis was so stupid. He sold him back to atletico after only giving him a handful of games and didnt target a replacement. When Ivanovic went awol, he couldn't move azpi there because he had a lb. So he had to play the young Brazilian winger there at times!

He didnt know how to stop the confidence slide the players went through, his main tool has always been confrontational, to light a fire in their belly. This looked pretty quickly to be a situation where that won't work but thats all Mourinho knows. When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

But the biggest drawback he has is that he simply isn't the best at coaching a team to play better possession football. Dont get me wrong, he can play attacking football, but mostly it ia direct football which kills teams. Our build up play was pathetic last year, they had slide so much down the confidence slide they seemed to be scared of the football. They over thought and second guessed every touch. What was needed was someone who could work specifically on build up play, but Mourinho didn't seem to have any idea on how to do that. He was even been on record as saying that the team that wins is the one that makes the least mistakes which underlines how focused he is on counter attacking football. Honestly, if you were to have the managers of the top 6 teams coach a pub team for a week to improve their build up play, Mourinho would come up last by a mile. But that shouldn't be a huge problem for a top premier league team. Give him good players that already have most of the tools and he'll win trophies baring all of the unlucky stars like last year aligning.

Sorry for the long post, but last year really grinds my gears!!
 

giorno

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Its not too much of a mystery why chelsea finished 10th last season. The idea that the main reason (some say only!) Is because the players downed tools is just lazy.
I agree with everything else you wrote, but this is wrong. You finished 10th because your players -at least the stars- no longer tolerated the manager and went out of their way to force the board to sack him. By that point, you were so far behind that they just gave up on the league

There's a difference between not being champions material(which you weren't) and finishing on 50 points
 

Supermonkey

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I'll try and be quick with this one;

Conte took players like Matic, firstly persuaded him to stay, then rebuilt his confidence to the the point where he is almost as good as his first 6-12 months here.

Before the switct to 343, he coached the squad to have an infinitely better build up pattern. How many times have you seen Azpi to kante, to Moses for plays and a first time in swinging ball to Costa? That pattern was there by the second pre season game. It similar to the goal Pedro scored against United. Even in the 424, it was the cms playing the same type of pass the the strikers. There was a plan rather than just saying to fabregas or Hazard "go on then".

The formation change was monumental. Make no mistake, chelsea wouldn't be too 4 without it. First seven games, onlu the 3-0 to burnley was convincing. Late wins against West ham and Watford were too close. Comfortably outplayed by Arsenal and Liverpool. Remember, we still had Ivanovic Cahill Terry Azpi which had all of the issues of the last season still. Kante was on a dog leash in front of the cbs. 343 was genuis becauee it put everyone in positions whete they are strong and not in positions they are weak. Cahill doesnt give goals away like at Swansea or Arsenal because he is further from the goal ;) and has more protection. Luiz has time on the ball and is away from the action where he makes mistakes. Hazard doesnt need to track the fullback. Kante gets to play the position he did att Leicester. Pedro gets to be closer to Costa as Moses has fullback. Attacking players stay dangerous, defensive players stay solid. You had nothing like this with th 4231! The performances and results have been night and day largely down to what the formation has done for the players.
 

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I agree with everything else you wrote, but this is wrong. You finished 10th because your players -at least the stars- no longer tolerated the manager and went out of their way to force the board to sack him. By that point, you were so far behind that they just gave up on the league

There's a difference between not being champions material(which you weren't) and finishing on 50 points
My last post for the day until midnight i'll respond again :)

What stars are you talking about? I think the only obvious one was Costa. He just didn't even bother to stay near the box and went roaming for the ball, our attack was impotent as a result. But surely a good way of the seeing who downed tools is to compare with the second half of the season when they had a grandad manager who gave them easy rides with the odd weathers original?

Hazard didnt even get a goal until the Spurs game and i cant remember a decent game from him last year. Costa certainly played better and got more goals. But apart from those two whose poor performances can be put down as downed tools? Not Willian. Not Azpi. Cahill was so poor he was soon dropped completely for Zouma who stayed first string until his knee injury. Ivanovic was poor from pre season. Terry? Maybe I guess. Matic was playing poorly since the previous season and i actually think Mourinho made it worse for him mentally when he subbed him off after subbing him on. Fabregas? I guess so, but then his poor defensive showings were there since his first season and slowly got worse. Attacking wise he couldn't do much when Costa is playing left wing.

I'm skeptical players would deliberately play to the point when they are 16th in the league by December. Or do you just mean that they still tried to win but didn't play Mourinho's way? It is a funny one and i absolutely agree that Jose lost the dressing room with both sides just as much to blame but i dont think thats enough to explain just how bad the team was.

Also, I agree the players gave up on the league but i think they almost certainly wanted top 4.
 

giorno

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Diego Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Matic for sure(Pedro didn't much like him either i think). Which, given that to win games in football you need to score goals....

But the whole team kind of stopped listening early on, and then mourinho pretty much came right out and confirmed it after the leicester game.

Those players would only pay lip service to the manager and had no motivation to react and fight when things started to go wrong
 

Orc

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I guess us Chelsea supporters and even Conte himself should get down on their knees and thank God that José Mourinho won us the league if we do so according to Treble Winning.

Essentially all Conte did was give the lads a pep talk in the dressing room and ever so slightly tweaked the formation and then boom, we're title winners again.

:rolleyes:
 

roonster09

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Not sure what is worse, WUM or replying to WUM.
 

blue blue

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Well, that's one way of looking at it - and I will admit that UTD should have won many of those drawn games. We created chances, but our finishing was poor. We simply weren't efficient or ruthless enough. How's that for a balanced opinion?

However I will say this - we are a work in progress. Mourinho is rebuilding the side. What he has done is that UTD are now bloody hard to beat. No one has beaten us since October and that's a pretty long time. Chelsea, while hard to beat, have actually lost a game recently (to Spurs) in which they were tactically outmatched and completely smothered. You also have to understand that Chelsea are a ready made championship side, they won the title in 2015 with 90% of the same players.

UTD's fundamentals are now being built, once we add efficiency and ruthlessness to our game we will look a lot more menacing. The game against Leicester was an example of this starting to click. We killed them within the span of 1 minute. We were playing not so well, but then, suddenly, boom, 2-0, game over. That's what we are going to be capable of doing consistently. That's what Mourinho brings to the table.
Don't read too much into bashing Leicester. Their probably the worst team in the league at the moment.
 

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There is no denying that Conte inherited a really good squad of players but he is a massive part of why they are so dominant this season . Fantastic manager so far and they have been easily the best team in the league .
 

Needham

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Definitely. Ball playing centre backs like Luiz, Piqué, Boateng, Hummels are fantastic passers, but they rely on a starting point behind the thick of the midfield battle.

The higher up the pitch a playmaker operates, the more he is subjected to pressure from the opponent's defensive formation. So the better overall footballer he is, the higher up he can play. That requires not only great passing, but also shielding the ball, maintaining the overview over the whole pitch and getting into open positions - all while being under heavy pressure, and with only a minimum of errors allowed.

Kroos is the player able to play constant metronome-like distribution in the highest zones of all current midfielders. Pogba is not that far behind, but it's hard to say where exactly his ceiling is because of United's limited CM play. Imo, he looked best this season as a DLP in a midfield two for France & United, smartly picking his spots to move into advanced positions.
Pogba is that far behind. By some distance I wish we had got Kroos instead.
 

Synco

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Pogba is that far behind. By some distance I wish we had got Kroos instead.
A lot of people in here think so, but I'm part of the minority that thinks he has been one of United's best players so far. And that much of the criticism is down to misattributing collective flaws in United's possession game to Pogba as an individual player.

I was actually surprised when I started watching him regularly this season, because I expected him to be mainly a tricky & physical box to box player with limited capabilities in structuring a game. But his outings have really convinced me of the opposite, especially when he was deployed in a deep playmaking role.

I suspect Kroos would disappoint many Caftards in a similar way to Pogba. Not because he's not brilliant (I have him down as one of the best players - not only midfielders - in the world). But because his influence would be similarly hampered in United's current game and the widespread expectations on a player to dominate the midfield individually are unrealistic.

But we're off topic in this thread.
 

salford_

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Conte is a better man manager IMO, ill give him that. Also seems to trust players far more.
 

salford_

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Diego Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Matic for sure(Pedro didn't much like him either i think). Which, given that to win games in football you need to score goals....

But the whole team kind of stopped listening early on, and then mourinho pretty much came right out and confirmed it after the leicester game.

Those players would only pay lip service to the manager and had no motivation to react and fight when things started to go wrong
Its no secret a lot of players end up not liking him. As a Real Madrid fan you definitely know about this with some of your players.
 

Tapori

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Ake and his dad

Oh, is that what he meant when he said he wanted to bring Sexy football to the country?

Ake needs gametime; will he get that at Chelsea?

I think Conte will be tested next year with 4 fronts and Rafa "Master Tactician in Big Games," to deal with. Conte has added a Simeone esque vibe to Chelsea. Top man and he deserves the plaudits - Guy changed his sytem when it wasn't working. His team are solid and Ruthless when it counts but he needs to do better against his direct rivals in the big games.

Also, Chelsea's serial loanees will be pleased as Conte seems to want to integrate their awesome youth.
 

BlueCelery

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@Sarni I remember us debating about the quality of Chelsea's squad a couple of months ago. Have you changed your mind yet? ;)
 

Sarni

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@Sarni I remember us debating about the quality of Chelsea's squad a couple of months ago. Have you changed your mind yet? ;)
Not really. You've done well this season but I still don't think your team is amazing all-time great like you think and is pretty close to what we have at United. Your great run is combination of great management, lack of European football and top form of many players at the same time. Conte is a fantastic league manager.

You are better than I thought but not as amazing as you think. Probably in the middle. Definitely not the best team that has ever existed and Hazard is not the best player in the history.
 

blue blue

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Just want to point out one thing (and this isn't about you) on how pundits have been saying we've been very lucky with no injuries in the team. Yeah but the thing is....we hardly ever get any serious injuries. Even the short term ones rarely happen. And this is stretching back to pre Abramovich since at least 2000 but especially in the Abramovich era. The only real serious injury I can really remember an important player getting was Essien. We've had the odd Courtois injury and Hazard injury last season and the odd Terry injury in 2013 but that's really just about it. I think it's a testament to our medical team (granted I know the medical team can't save you from freak injuries on the pitch but still). If it happens every season but doesn't happen one season then that's luck. But when it becomes a trend for 5, 10, 15 years then you can't call it luck.

Neville, Carragher and all them boys need to have this pointed out to them.
Zouma?
 

Francoruud

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If true, then Chelsea have got the best doctors and physios. About time UTD also started to look into getting some serious upgrades in that department.

That said, wasn't hazard "injured" last season? Or is that just an explanation for poor form? Like how Costa was "injured" when Conte had a bust up with him regarding the move to China, :)
Did you miss the part where I mentioned Hazard's injury last season?
Yes, Zouma too. Forgot about that. An example of a freak injury. Although at that point, our season wasn't really heading anywhere so it didn't really matter.