We played Wolfsburg in the QF. They played Atletico Madrid. That's what i mean by luck
You sure love the word 'luck'. Why even play games? Just toss a coin and roll with it.
CL vs Premier League | Which is more prestigious?
- Thread starter VorZakone
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CL/European cup will always be the most prestigious title that a club could ever win and there's no comparasion with a domestic league.
EPL is surely the richest league in the world if we talk about revenues, salaries,transfers between all clubs, but the very best players are not playing in England and UEFA ranking tell us that is way behind the spanish league and have just a little advantage on Serie A.
EPL is surely the richest league in the world if we talk about revenues, salaries,transfers between all clubs, but the very best players are not playing in England and UEFA ranking tell us that is way behind the spanish league and have just a little advantage on Serie A.
It hasn't got much to do with "tiki-taka", whatever that may be. Although I do think that opportunistic sides seem to gain some sort of competitive edge in direct encounters with dominant sides playing "total football". Is it due to intangible factors such as complacency and motivation, inherently opportunistic nature of the game, sheer chance, or some sort of magic, I don't know. And it's arguable how significant it actually is.
But even so, in the same time frame Barca also has more wins in matches vs Real, so there goes your argument about "big games" and "direct style". The moment that sample gets more reliable, quality prevails, regardless of games being big or small, or style more or less "direct". Cup competitions are flukey as hell, but people love to mythologize them. That's all there is to it.
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Pep was brought in by city's owners to win the European cup.
So there's your answer
So there's your answer
Well no, there's an assumption.
But Real have a much better record (at least in recent years) against the other top teams in Europe.
You really can't put Real's recent CL wins down to just luck.
Of course it's not just down to luck, Madrid are a top team. However, I doubt their record against other top teams is that much better than Barca's, even in recent few years. Cup competitions are all about fine margins and few decisive moments.
Barca have lost to the following teams in the knockout stage in the last few years:
2017:
Juve 3-0
PSG 4-0
2016:
Atletico 2-0
2015:
Bayern 3-2
2014:
Atletico 1-0
Real MAdrid
2017:
Atletico 2-1
2015:
Juve 2-1
2014:
Dortmund 2-0
Much fewer losses to the other big teams around Europe, despite Real playing many more knockout stage games in those years.
Flip that and it would be some story if we won 4 Champions Leagues in a five year period and only 1 league title in that same time. Would be such an odd few seasons.
Speak for yourself gramps
The best team of the year always wins the league. The best team in Europe does not always win the CL.
Greece won the 2004 Euros, whilst being quite shite. Same for Portugal in 2016. Or Chelsea beating Bayern in the CL final without having a single shot on goal.
Ofcourse it's not all luck, but you can fluke yourself to the later stages or even to the cup, you can't fluke yourself to a league title.
Greece won the 2004 Euros, whilst being quite shite. Same for Portugal in 2016. Or Chelsea beating Bayern in the CL final without having a single shot on goal.
Ofcourse it's not all luck, but you can fluke yourself to the later stages or even to the cup, you can't fluke yourself to a league title.
I don't know if this point has already been made but every time players like Lampard, Ferdinand, Scholes, etc. are doing punditry and are asked what they think the best moment of their career was, they also point to winning the Champions League. I think that says enough.
It's still a very small sample compared to league. One goal against the run of play, one wrong referee decision, one game where things simply don't work out for you, and you're out.
Madrid have been very strong in recent years, even brilliant at moments. But three titles is a bit too much IMO, and doesn't tell the real story. They've simply had everything going their way in the right moments: draw, form, decisions and sometimes sheer luck.
Compare it to Bayern, the side that has played not less brilliant football in recent years. Against Barca they were out because half the team was injured, and last year they were arguably the better team until few decisions completely changed the game. Year before, they went out on away goals in a tie vs Atletico where they were utterly dominant, while Real won the final against same Atletico on penalties, after an underwhelming game.
One could argue that Madrid had more character and clutch than Bayern in last 3-4 years. But three European titles to none is completely unrealistic and doesn't represent the quality of these two teams.
I might make a thread asking what’s more desirable: getting sucked off by Emily Ratajkowski or eating strands of Theresa May’s pubic hair?
About as obvious as this thread’s question.
About as obvious as this thread’s question.
2 of those barcelona losses came last season. The 3-2 against Bayern from 2015 is meaningless, the tie was dead and buried after they scored the 1-1, then it got deader and burieder still after they went up 2-1
Likewise, our loss against atletico at the calderon, game was over when Isco scored. Second half was a glorified friendly. We also lost to schalke in 2015, nearly went out at home against them, and lost 2-0 against a pathetic side like wolfsburg. Oh, and technically we also lost against bayern at the bernabeu last season, game went into extra time. And we won because of an incompetent ref bailing us out while we were desperately trying to hang on for dear life. See what i mean? If Kassai send offs Casemiro, most likely we go out. If they played Wolfsburg instead of Atletico in 2016, they go through. It's very small margins at that level, fitness and form trump everything else and a bad ref or a single play can swing a tie.
This. Bayern missed a penalty in extra time against chelsea. Then they had half their team out and the other half playing through injuries against barcelona in 2015. Then another missed penalty against Atletico that would have put them out of reach in 2016. Then Kassai in 2017. If Robben and Muller score their penalties and Kassai sends off Casemiro instead of Vidal, we might be looking at Bayern having won 4 of the last 6 editions of the CL...
I don't think Man City was the better team the year they won it on GD.
Nor Chelsea the year they won it due to the Drogba offside goal.
2 examples just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are many more examples.
If you're going to analyze each individual game and decision, you can easily do it with league campaigns too.
Chelsea won the league with that Drogba offside goal, City won the league with the PL failing to have everything KO at the same time, etc, etc.
Sure, it sometimes happens that league is won with a small margin, and with a certain amount of luck. It's football. But not really that often, and certainly not to an extent randomness and ephemeral moment play role in cup competitions.
Well I disagree, see what I did there
CL, but the league is more important.
You can argue that ONE CL was won by a weak team in the last 10 years (Chelsea), you can make the case for quite a few PL title winners in the same period.
Oh come on, it’s harder to fluke the league than the cl it’s like 3rd grade math. How can you argue this, honestly. There is more room for luck to even out over 38 games than it is over 6 games.
If you cant acknowledge this simple basic fact, you’re on the wum.
It's harder for a significantly weaker team to fluke the league than the CL, but for the top teams, it's just as likely to come down to a few decisions in a few games.
Some good points here. I agree that the best and only one true indicator of quality is the league. No cup win in itself can be used as a barometer to judge how good a team is. How can it be with Liverpool, Chelsea, Porto and Greece won major trophies recently. However, the league can never be used to judge greatness either. I think only 4 or 5 teams who won the PL for example can be called great since the '90s. To win the league, you need to be better than the given 19 teams you are competing against which means you are indeed without a doubt better than them but it doesn't necessarily mean you are a great team. My view is that the CL is the barometer then for greatness but by that I don't mean winning it in one particularly season, I mean consistently reaching the latter rounds for a good number of years. Leicester, City, and Chelsea all won the PL recently yet none of them could perform to that level in the CL over an extended period. Their achievement made them undoubtedly the best in the land but hardly a great team.
For me I want us to win the Premier League.
I have always felt that the European Cup is seen as an afterthought in England. I think this has to do with the United Kingdom being isolated from the rest of Europe and this is just not for football but for other aspects of life.
The refusal to adopt the Euros, players preferring to stay on the island than risk going to other countries and many examples.
The premier league is a sort of league on itself and the riches that it has means that it will be seen as even more important. The most viewership than any other footballing competition. An extra 5 billion is gong to be injected now which means even lower teams in the table can challenge Real Madrid in terms of tv deals.
There was a poll last year if I remember correctly on sky sports where the Premier league beat the Champions League in imprtance, 68% to 32%.
The refusal to adopt the Euros, players preferring to stay on the island than risk going to other countries and many examples.
The premier league is a sort of league on itself and the riches that it has means that it will be seen as even more important. The most viewership than any other footballing competition. An extra 5 billion is gong to be injected now which means even lower teams in the table can challenge Real Madrid in terms of tv deals.
There was a poll last year if I remember correctly on sky sports where the Premier league beat the Champions League in imprtance, 68% to 32%.
Nothing better than winning the Champions League. Best feeling as a fan i've ever felt
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(Can someone give me a "like" so i can move from 9 likes to 10 and not have restrictions on my account?! Thanks!)
more prestigious is CL by far, very obvious question
I think the premier league is actually considered more prestigious in England, but the CL is more globally revered. Personally I've always felt a league season is a much better barometer of excellence than a knockout competition, but the CL is just so star-studded it's hard not to get caught up in it.
Ask any English player to have won both, they'd all tell you winning the CL was the pinnacle of their career.
When I first joined this forum a few years ago, the majority of the answers were "the league"
Now that City are running away with I guess it's no longer that good anymore
Now that City are running away with I guess it's no longer that good anymore
I doubt there's ever been much argument to which is more prestigious. Which is harder to win or more important is a completely different question.
Apart from Chelsea 2012 (an extreme outlier), how many CL trophies in the last 10 years have been won by anything less than excellent teams? All this talk about the CL involving too much luck is mostly nonsense. 9 times out of 10 it takes a great team to win it.
The best teams in Europe have been better than the best English teams for quite some time now. Teams like United 2013, City 2014, and Chelsea 2015 all won the Premier League but were nowhere near winning the Champions League.
Real Madrid in 2016 were a disaster until they sacked Benitez and got lucky with Zizou that he delivered a CL and had an easy draw all the way to the final as well as winning the final with an offside goal and penalties
2005 Liverpool comes to mind as well
It's a competition you definitely need luck to win, I don't think luck plays even half as much of a part in a league campaign than it does over a CL campaign
Obviously which one is more "important" is a matter of preference but the CL is far more prestigious, that's a fact. The league being a better barometer of quality is only partially true since you're only competing against teams from your own country rather than against best of the best.
To privilege the CL over the PL in all years and circumstances is another vile form of racism. For a more nuanciated perspective of comparative prestige, ask the people of Leicester.
the CL involves the best clubs within all of europe. it's not even worth a thread.
Im not saying luck is too much of a factor in the CL, just that it’s easier to fluke a tournament than a 38 game league.
8 shots on goal for Bayern, 4 for Chelsea (including a goal!). You made a decent point but you don't have to lie to back it up.
http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsle...match=2007693/postmatch/statistics/index.html
Ah my bad, I just though I remembered the Drogba header to be the first shot on target, not lying on purpose
It wasn't a very deserved win though was it? Only thing I remember about the match was Robben bottling a penalty in overtime, or is that a different match alltogether?