Excellent stuff, JB. And yeah the best.
Classic Players - Bryan Robson: The greatest British midfielder ever?
- Thread starter Joga Bonito
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I think Robbo and Souness are the top two. Harder to judge Mackay and Bremner in fairness as @Rozay says, but their credentials are top drawer as well.
I'd agree though that the games were more open. There was more back-and-fore, more transitions, less possession play, and it probably created more space for attackers.
I don't know about that. Statistically at least the league winning teams are more consistently getting up to 80-95 points than they did in the 1990s. Teams typically won the league with 75-80 points in the mid-and-late 1990s, whereas 12 times out of the last 14 seasons you would have needed 86 points or more to win the title.
I'd agree though that the games were more open. There was more back-and-fore, more transitions, less possession play, and it probably created more space for attackers.
Beckham is a funny one. It didn't really matter how good you were as a typical left-back because he didn't beat you with pace or trickery, but he could always open up an angle to bend in a telling delivery. Any increased athleticism of the modern full-back (say your Bellerins replacing your Dixons) won't necessarily deal with that.
fecks sake @Joga Bonito, you've actually brought tears to my eyes with this thread! You've encapsulated everything about the man, top posts bro!
Best player I have ever seen in a United shirt the guy had the lot .He dragged the team along some games and I was so pleased we got the title with him . The goal which epitomized him was home v Notts County they had a corner which he headed away the ball found itself to our left wing, Olsen I think who crossed the ball and Robbo came in and headed home.
Great thread, great player.
Great thread, great player.
its a shame that he was at the tail end of his career on our rise to doominace, had he been in that era we would have ben ustoppable.
For me, Bobby gets the nod as the best British midfielder of all time and I would argue like his peers do that he is the no1 of all times or at least mentioned in the same breath.
For me, Bobby gets the nod as the best British midfielder of all time and I would argue like his peers do that he is the no1 of all times or at least mentioned in the same breath.
Better than Keane for me - more goals, more goals in big games, lots of goals for England too
The Notts County goal brought the house down, see if I can find it - just after 2mins 30secs I reckon
The Notts County goal brought the house down, see if I can find it - just after 2mins 30secs I reckon
Thats the goal I thought there was a corner involved , passage of time . Thanks matey.
Biggest compliment I can pay him is that he was even better than Roy Keane.
Brilliant. He even has to check back to hold his position in midfield early on in the move, which makes the next run - all the way for the header - all the more impressive.
Arnold Muhren?
HaFair enough, nothing much to separate either imo and obviously there is no right or wrong answer here.
Would be interested in hearing the opinions of unbiased neutrals @BeforeKeanetherewasRobson & @Barca84 on this issue
There's very little between the two for me but I give Robson the nod as I think he was the more dynamic player of the two. Their eras are close enough to make comparison valid I think. Much of what has been said about him I fully agree with and as my username indicates his performance in that legendary game might be the best I've seen. He was the complete leader on the pitch, utterly driven, and a game dominator unlike any other player since. A ferocious tackler, great passer, good in the air, could go past a man, and he knew where the goal was. As we all know he carried a mediocre team on his shoulders.
Bobby Robson reckoned he was the best player England ever produced and after watching him at United from the day he signed I'd struggle to disagree.
Where would you rank Roy Keane btw?
Thanks, that means a lot.
Cracking stuff!
I'll give plenty of your players credit but Robson wasn't a great footballer, he had poor technique and was a poor passer, couldn't dribble either. Yeah he could run all day, tackle get stuck in and make runs to score goals. But as a playmaker he was the opposite to Scholes, England got bossed for possession against Ireland when he played. He was a large part of the reason you were a mid table side. If he was played at Liverpool in the 80s he would of been lucky to be on the bench. Most overrated player in your clubs history.
I think it's largely about romancing a solid loyal player when you weren't a very good footballing side. But it's no coincidence you started winning the league when he stopped playing a major role. Rating him over Keane is ridiculous.
Beckham's that good a crosser he might make Giroud prolific.
I think it's largely about romancing a solid loyal player when you weren't a very good footballing side. But it's no coincidence you started winning the league when he stopped playing a major role. Rating him over Keane is ridiculous.
Beckham was world class, still would be, no one with a better cross today, he made space for his crosses and would do today. He skinned Roberto Carlos easy enough.
Beckham's that good a crosser he might make Giroud prolific.
To be honest, the posts at the start of the thread (and a couple of posts since like @Barca84 ) tell you all about Robson, the player and the person. Great thread @Joga Bonito.
I get the opinion about comparing generations not being easy/perfect though I don't agree it's impossible. If you've watched both eras in full and think "how good was this player in THEIR era?", "how did EACH player dictate and change games?", I think you can make a comparison.
No idea why the comparison between Robson and Charlton keeps getting made. Just because Charlton's position was changed from the older "inside forward" to "midfielder", doesn't mean there's a comparison in the same way you can't compare Scholes and Keane despite both being "midfielders" (and in the same era).
The more obvious comparison to Robson is Keane, Gerrard, Lampard and Souness. For me, Souness and Keane are the closest ... both excellent players but also players who played in truly excellent teams which you can't ignore as it's a huge benefit to be surrounded by quality players. Souness played with Clemence, McDermott, Hansen, Ray Kennedy, Neal, Dalglish, Rush, Nicol, etc.... Keane had Schmeicel, Bruce, Irwin, G Neville, Scholes, Giggs, Yorke, Ruud, etc. Count the League and European Cup medals that lot have got?!
Robson didn't have that quality to support him... to take some of the defensive burden, to help drive the team forward, to finish more of the chances created. If you look at the list of United greats, they probably played with other top players... the Babes or the great 60's teams or the great Ferguson teams. Robson's the exception. Older United fans will always think fondly of Albiston, Muhren, Wilkins, Bailey, Hughes, etc but they're not the quality of United 60s/90s or Liverpool 70s/80s.The only player with Robson of that top quality was probably McGrath.
Defend, head, pass, tackle, timing, energy, determination to win, score goals and true leadership (Martin Johnson style)... all things you look for in great midfielders. There have been players who were better in some areas (Scholes passing for example) but Robson had it all.... great player, great captain, great man.
I get the opinion about comparing generations not being easy/perfect though I don't agree it's impossible. If you've watched both eras in full and think "how good was this player in THEIR era?", "how did EACH player dictate and change games?", I think you can make a comparison.
No idea why the comparison between Robson and Charlton keeps getting made. Just because Charlton's position was changed from the older "inside forward" to "midfielder", doesn't mean there's a comparison in the same way you can't compare Scholes and Keane despite both being "midfielders" (and in the same era).
The more obvious comparison to Robson is Keane, Gerrard, Lampard and Souness. For me, Souness and Keane are the closest ... both excellent players but also players who played in truly excellent teams which you can't ignore as it's a huge benefit to be surrounded by quality players. Souness played with Clemence, McDermott, Hansen, Ray Kennedy, Neal, Dalglish, Rush, Nicol, etc.... Keane had Schmeicel, Bruce, Irwin, G Neville, Scholes, Giggs, Yorke, Ruud, etc. Count the League and European Cup medals that lot have got?!
Robson didn't have that quality to support him... to take some of the defensive burden, to help drive the team forward, to finish more of the chances created. If you look at the list of United greats, they probably played with other top players... the Babes or the great 60's teams or the great Ferguson teams. Robson's the exception. Older United fans will always think fondly of Albiston, Muhren, Wilkins, Bailey, Hughes, etc but they're not the quality of United 60s/90s or Liverpool 70s/80s.The only player with Robson of that top quality was probably McGrath.
Defend, head, pass, tackle, timing, energy, determination to win, score goals and true leadership (Martin Johnson style)... all things you look for in great midfielders. There have been players who were better in some areas (Scholes passing for example) but Robson had it all.... great player, great captain, great man.
Growing up the player that got me supporting our great club was Steve Coppell, the two players I heroe worshipped were Mark Hughes and Bryan Robson.
My all time eleven Robson would get in ahead of Keane which says enough in itself. As both a captain and a player I would put Robson ahead of Viera, Gerrard, Souness and just about anybody else you could mention.
As somebody else mentioned a shame his career was pretty much at its end when we started to win the league again. The one sad side to Robson was the amount of time he spent injured. It did bring to prominence just how good he was though, when Robson was in the side, we challenged, when he was on the treatment table we fell apart, that is how important and influential in a weak United side, fantastic player.
My all time eleven Robson would get in ahead of Keane which says enough in itself. As both a captain and a player I would put Robson ahead of Viera, Gerrard, Souness and just about anybody else you could mention.
As somebody else mentioned a shame his career was pretty much at its end when we started to win the league again. The one sad side to Robson was the amount of time he spent injured. It did bring to prominence just how good he was though, when Robson was in the side, we challenged, when he was on the treatment table we fell apart, that is how important and influential in a weak United side, fantastic player.
I will agree Beckham was world class, but the fact you say he skinned Roberto Carlos easily enough when half the time he faced him he was in his back pocket and getting virtually every attempt at crossing blocked by Carlos, and not having the skill or pace to go past him.......well I dont even feel the need to comment on your view of Robson.
Some pretty strong opinions there, what are you basing them on if you don't mind me asking?
Great post
Great thread, Robson is my favourite United player ever.
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Robson and Laudrup on the same pitch is football pornography
Indeed, but Robson, Maradona and Platini...
football is just great sometimesThis is becoming my FB pic.
I think he can claim to be the second best English player ever next to bobby Charlton though his cabinet may not be trophy-laden.
Having not had the chance to see him play, who does Robson most closely compare to in modern times?
The combativeness and will to win of Keane.... the timing into the penalty area and score of Lampard.
No-one really. A bit like Keane meets Gerrard, but even that's not right. You don't really seem to get just midfielders anymore (everyone's a DM or an AM or whatever). There's no equivalents of Robson, or Souness, or Keane even that I can think of. Weirdly though, I think Charlton played a position that exists in droves in modern football.
In terms of being the best British midfielder, I'm really not sure how you directly compare, but he was clearly up there. Souness, Murdoch, McKay, Charlton (just realised 3 of those players are Scottish..amazing how Scottish football has collapsed)...I'd say Hoddle and Gascoigne could be argued too. I just wish he'd got to play with Keane at his prime. That would have been extraordinary.
Robbo was the player that made me love Utd though.
Robbo was the player that made me love Utd though.
It is really difficult to make a comparison with modern players tbf.
As the posters above mentioned, this piece of glorious action characterized Robson -
Then again, it wasn't for nothing that Sir Alex kept on banging about his 'quality that you can’t coach in players, really, and that is timing... He just has this talent to time things, and be in the right place at the right time.'
This right here was classic Robson too
How many midfielders would have been capable of executing both these pieces of actions, located on either ends of the footballing spectrum, as flawlessly as that? The most important thing to note would be how he 'times' and calculates his movement to absolute perfection in both of them. In the first, his movement off the ball to get in between his markers and his anticipation. Likewise, in the second, notice how he glances around to spot the runner from deep, halfway during the clip, and how he tracks said runner and makes the interception. Of course, his initial positions and where he ends up too.
There was always a method behind the chaos in Robson's dynamic play. That's something that I'd really love to stress - Robson was a really intelligent player, who was really measured and strategic on the pitch. Far too often, you'd see 'all-action' midfielders become over-exuberant and tend towards headless chicken at times. There was no doubting their commitment or dynamism but they just lacked the tactical nous or the timing. At times they'd 'bomb forward' just to add another body in the penalty box to chance upon something, or defensively they'd put in the yards and track back 'without purpose'. Robson was the very anti-thesis of this.
Will quote the relevant segment from my OP for your sake
PLAYING STYLE
Far too often the term 'complete midfielder' or 'box to box dynamo' gets thrown about and lavished on players, who were dynamic and industrious but perhaps weren't as complete as they were made out to be. However, none embodied that title better than Bryan Robson. Captain Marvel, quite simply, had the lot.
He was very much an unholy amalgamation of several midfielders at once - he possessed the terrier-like tenacity and grit of midfield work-horses, disrupting the opposition and not giving them a moment of peace on the ball with his incessant pressing and fearsome tackling; his tactical acuity and reading of the game meant that he snuffed out fires in a manner not too dissimilar to the wily defensive midfielders; a sweet left peg which could dictate play like a crafty playmaker and of course, those fierce piercing runs from deep that were the trademark of any box to box midfielder worth his salt and last but not least, the sheer timing of his runs and anticipation skills that most poachers would have been envious of. Very much an enforcer, commander in chief, talismanic match-winning presence all rolled into one immense package. Not for nothing did England boss Bobby Robson refer to him as Captain Marvel.
He would win a crunching tackle on the edge of his own penalty area, feed the ball out to the wing or the nearest midfielder, pick himself up, go sprinting 80 yards forward and then arrive on the edge of the opposition penalty area with the same exquisite timing to crack another effort goalwards.
There have been plenty of 'offensive box to box goalscoring midfielders', such as Gerrard, Ballack, Lampard who married excellent goalscoring ability with grit and industry. How many of these midfielders would have been at home at centre-back, let alone as the holding midfielder? How many of them would have been favourably compared with Sir Bobby Moore of all people?
Ex manager of Robson Johnny Giles said:
Dave Bowler said:
Robson possessed the reading of the game and the tactical nous, to go hand in hand with the goalscoring prowess and the industry. He was very much a one-off with the sheer completeness of his game and in my honest opinion only Robson and Lothar Matthaus, had it all in their lockers as the complete midfielders - the talismanic match-winning aura, authoritative command in midfield, defensive nous and the sheer tenacity and temperament to go with it.
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I fundamentally disagree with you on this topic. I think this is a very disingenuous POV. You can only beat what is in front of you with the tools at your disposal. The quality of your own opponents can sometimes dictate your ceiling. Robson was a truly great footballing mind and I think he would have thrived in today's game. Growing up against better midfielders and defenders and with better players would have enabled him to reach a ceiling more appropriate of today's game. Give him a tougher opponent, he'll develop a higher ceiling, such is his talent.
He was an absolute legend and one of the true United and British greats.
@Joga Bonito , epic thread, thank you.
Brilliant Joga. My weekend is all sorted.
@Joga Bonito,
Fantastic job. Can we look forward to similar threads for other all-time United Greats, such as Duncan Edwards, George Best, Bobby Charlton, Roy Keane, ..., etc.?
Fantastic job. Can we look forward to similar threads for other all-time United Greats, such as Duncan Edwards, George Best, Bobby Charlton, Roy Keane, ..., etc.?
Would love one for Keano - especially the entire 90s version.
Would love to but can't promise anything unfortunately, due to potential time restraints.
One of the prime reasons why I chose to do profiles on the likes of Denis Law, Paul McGrath and Bryan Robson was because I felt they deserved more exposure, and perhaps felt they were underappreciated even by those who didn't have the opportunity to watch them. Especially due to the lack of comprehensive footage available focusing exclusively on them. That isn't the case with the likes of Keane, Best, Sir Bobby Charlton etc who get the plaudits they deserve and have ample footage on them. That being said I might do a profile on Sir Bobby Charlton though.
McGrath's profile
Denis Law's profile
Denis Law is our greatest forward ever, and The King played a critical role in our post Munich rebuilding process. At times it felt like he went under the radar whilst Sir Bobby Charlton and Best got the lion's share of the plaudits and worse, I've seen him being unfairly labelled as a pure goalscoring striker when the reality couldn't be any different.
Paul McGrath was just far too good a defender who didn't have a single match compilation on his performances and a favourite of mine.
Bryan Robson too, strangely enough, didn't have a single one of those too and I was sure people would have loved to watch more exclusive footage centred on him. More than anything, I wanted to portray how pivotal a figure he was to this club, ensuring we maintained our traditions and identity, during our lean years, and how he embodied the fighting spirit and the enthralling football that United fans cherish more than anything.
One just has to skim through the comments on this thread, to see how highly he is regarded by United fans and more importantly how Robbo managed to preserve the allure and romance of United.
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Great player and probably one of the very best English midfielders of all time - not sure about the 'British' bit as there have been some wonderful players from these Islands over the years. Also for me the greatest all-time British player is George Best.
Great thread mate and you are bang on about his legendary status among fans - in fact there has been a bit of a crowdfunding and voting process amongst fans in Jstand (singing section) this summer to get some murals of legendary players on the concourse in the stadium and top of the list is Robson (followed by Cantona).
Bobby Moore might have something to say about that.
This thread is glorious @Joga Bonito