Contact lost with Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 | 8th March 2014

[Wibble]

But if he crashed the plane into the sea there would be a lot of debris as the plane would have smashed while hitting the sea, there would be a lot less debris if the plane had blown up in the air or have I got that the wrong way round?

From what I have read planes that break up in mid air leave lots more debris over a wider area than those that hit water intact.

 

[crappycraperson]

Malaysian authorities have had a 'mare here. They should have just come out with all the info they had on day 1 itself. If they knew the plane turned then why waste time searching in a wrong area

 

[crappycraperson]

I also don't understand why the military did not scramble planes to the airplane location when the transponders were turned off. It seems they were tracking it for almost an hour

 

[Red Dreams]

Malaysian authorities have had a 'mare here. They should have just come out with all the info they had on day 1 itself. If they knew the plane turned then why waste time searching in a wrong area

I thought that too.

 

[crappycraperson]

I think they have screwed up some where in their first response. I hope they are not trying to cover up something now though.

 

[JustAFan]

Tut tut tut. Cardinal sin that my friend.

Runway is for landing and taking off.

Taxiway for taxiing.

Stand for parking.

Never the three shall meet

I'm an amateur that is my only excuse.

 

[JustAFan]

I think they have screwed up some where in their first response. I hope they are not trying to cover up something now though.

My guess will be that they had poor communication of relevant info or that someone misjudged the accuracy of some information

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

You can understand why the response might have been a little disjointed in the early stages however the lag here can be measured in days rather than hours, and as has been pointed out in the thread military assets must've been at the fore of the search and rescue effort under way.

From what I have read planes that break up in mid air leave lots more debris over a wider area than those that hit water intact.

This is my understanding also. I suppose a lack of debris could be attributed to a successful emergency landing on water where the aircraft sinks mostly in one piece, although that would present other clues that should have seen [possible survivors for one].



Apologies if this has been posted already:

The US Federal Aviation Administration issued a warning four months ago of a potential for corrosion in the aircraft fuselage which could weaken it and lead to the “loss of structural integrity”. Officials warned of a possible weak spot that could lead to rapid decompression and even to the aircraft breaking up in mid-air.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-female-passengers-in-cockpit-at-30000ft.html

There is a further story about one of the pilots having invited female passengers into the cockpit, although unless the insinuation ins that this was used to stage a hijacking which i'm not sure the evidence yet points to, the immediate relevance is questionable.

 

[wr8_utd]

If the plane did fly over the straits, which is one of the busiest ship lanes, surely someone there saw it? Even if it's around 2 at night.

 

[Anderson's Cat]

There is a further story about one of the pilots having invited female passengers into the cockpit, although unless the insinuation ins that this was used to stage a hijacking which i'm not sure the evidence yet points to, the immediate relevance is questionable.

This. I've no idea of the relevance of a pilot once having invited passengers up to the cockpit. They really are clutching at straws.

 

[x42bn6]

My guess will be that they had poor communication of relevant info or that someone misjudged the accuracy of some information

There's a lack of coordination and leadership. The agencies are sort of working independently, which is why there are lots of contradictions. Najib Razak is back in Malaysia, so all eyes will be on him to demonstrate some backbone (for once).

From days 1 and 2, they should have realised that there was a chance of the plane being on both sides of the Peninsula and communicated that quickly. They could have got India on board quicker to help with the Straits of Malacca search, for example.

My guess is that it is more of an embarrassment that a plane managed to fly nearly-undetected over the Peninsula. It implies the country has no control over its airspace.

 

[air_mood]

But if they where terrorists wouldn't they want a specific flight / plane? or maybe not.

Apparently they're just Iranians who wanted to start afresh in Frankfurt. Well at least one of them was.

 

[Sky1981]

I believe they should just cross out the "normal" circumstances and start thinking backward.

Normal circumstances, radio communication and radar will always be on. Now if they can't communicate with the plane for an extended period, they should start to look from the last received transmission, calculate the maximum possible radius distance, start from there and spread out.

It's not the most efficient ways, but surely with today's technology and several nation's working together you can really pinpoint the area of crash faster, instead of coming up with no explanation at all?

And FWIW, It must have been a crash, and the passengers would presumably have deceased (or they could contact their family), we don't have anything too savy for conspiracy theories at the moment, it could be terrorist or hijacking or any other espionage plot, but as of now... I don't think anyone have the tech to make a plane simply disappear. It's probably a simple but extraordinary coincidences of things (Pilot having a heart attack, thunderstrom turning plane electricity out, etc). Surely there's no alien involved.

 

[VII]

Nice to see the Malaysian minister still joking around and laughing with journalists! Farking unbelievable!

And it seems all along they knew the plane headed for the Straight of Malacca. During the press conference 2-3 days ago with the military chiefs present, he mentioned that there's a possibility the plane headed in that direction.

So while Malaysia, American and Australian (incidentally the 2 nations with the most advanced maritime technology) were quietly searching in the Straight of Malacca, everyone else searched in the South China Sea for 4, 5 days for nothing.

"It changed course after Kota Bharu and took a lower altitude. It made it into the Malacca Strait," the military official, who has been briefed on investigations, told Reuters.

 

[Dracula]

The most interesting thing about that press conference was the military bloke (in the blue uniform). It was more about what he wouldnt say rather than what he did say.
It was eventually brought out of him that at 02:15 the was a primary RADAR track NW of the peninsular. This track was intermittent (as it would be with Primary RADAR). This shows the problem they have, with Primary RADAR they cant really know if it was the 777. It could have been anything, so if they tell people that there was a plane at x altitude (Military primary RADAR can calculate altitude) going a specific way, for all we know it could be a secret military flight so they are understandably nervous to give out more information on it in case it WASNT the 777.

On the other hand, as has been mentioned previously, it must be incredibly embarassing that there was a primary RADAR track making its way across the Malaysian peninsular and nothing was done about it at the time if it WASNT a military flight and it was the 777.

So, unfortunately it looks like obfuscation with military paranoia may be hindering this SAR.

Again though, the guy was asked specifically what ACARS date (data sent by the aircraft to engineers about the performance of the aircraft) was being sent at the time the Secondary (civilian atc) RADAR contact was lost, the guy just completely dodged the question and just talked about the secondary RADAR contact, nothing about ACARS. This ACARS data was incredibly valuable with AF447 (in fact the actual reason for the crash (blocked pitot tube following icing) was shown the next day on the ACARS data. so why is it not being released? It could be that as the ACARS data is sometimes intermittent that there was just no data at the time but they dont seem to be saying that

 

[Pexbo]

I haven't see it mentioned yet but is it possible that the Pilot(s) was(were) offered a lot of money to deliver the plane to somewhere? Either for contents, the plane itself or for a hostage situation?

 

[coolredwine]

I haven't see it mentioned yet but is it possible that the Pilot(s) was(were) offered a lot of money to deliver the plane to somewhere? Either for contents, the plane itself or for a hostage situation?

That theory is even worse than the Alien one.

 

[air_mood]

As per my understanding from the PC, the radar track showed a civilian plane flying, hence it wasn't classified as a hostile and why there wasn't any intercept by the military jets. As of now, it's being stated as possibly being MH370, not confirmed yet as apparently the military radar has no capability of confirming, well that's what came out of the PC at least. It just appears as a dot and identified as a civilian plane apparently. I have no idea how radar works so I'm merely stating what came out of the PC.

Thought it was a good PC myself, the minister handled himself well considering how he was getting bombarded(understandable) quite a few times during the PC.

 

[Pexbo]

That theory is even worse than the Alien one.

Why?

The terrorism line is looking unlikely a far as passengers go, the plane drops all communication, changes direction and lower's altitude and could apparently be anywhere in a 6000 mile radius and it's dafter to think that the Pilot might be up to something than it is to think "Aliens".

 

[coolredwine]

Why?

The terrorism line is looking unlikely a far as passengers go, the plane drops all communication, changes direction and lower's altitude and could apparently be anywhere in a 6000 mile radius and it's dafter to think that the Pilot might be up to something than it is to think "Aliens".

From what I know (and I may be wrong here), but these kinda jobs are very sensitive. I am sure the Airline companies have proper tests to determine whether the pilot is in a fit state to fly an aircraft or not (and that includes determining his integrity as well). Same goes for people in the Defense Services. An aviation geek who has more than 18k hours of flying experience, and has been flying since the past 30 years. Do you really think he would sell his integrity even after being so successful?

 

[Pexbo]

From what I know (and I may be wrong here), but these kinda jobs are very sensitive. I am sure the Airline companies have proper tests to determine whether the pilot is in a fit state to fly an aircraft or not (and that includes determining his integrity as well). Same goes for people in the Defense Services. An aviation geek who has more than 18k hours of flying experience, and has been flying since the past 30 years. Do you really think he would sell his integrity even after being so successful?

Brilliant.


And what about Egypt Air Flight 990? I guess the Airline Company were fully aware the Pilot was a bit suicidal and fancied taking over 200 passengers with him?

 

[kiristao]

From what I know (and I may be wrong here), but these kinda jobs are very sensitive. I am sure the Airline companies have proper tests to determine whether the pilot is in a fit state to fly an aircraft or not (and that includes determining his integrity as well). Same goes for people in the Defense Services. An aviation geek who has more than 18k hours of flying experience, and has been flying since the past 30 years. Do you really think he would sell his integrity even after being so successful?

I am not saying what @Pexbo said is true but the so called totally sane and normal people have done far worse for far less. At this moment, nothing can be dismissed really.

 

[Pexbo]

I am not saying what @Pexbo said is true but the so called totally sane and normal people have done far worse for far less. At this moment, nothing can be dismissed really.

Which is my point. I'm not suggesting it's true either, I'm asking how possible it is that a Pilot could actually do that. Dismissing it because you think it would be difficult for a Pilot to hide his lack of integrity from his superiors is a very weak answer.

 

[Dracula]

As per my understanding from the PC, the radar track showed a civilian plane flying, hence it wasn't classified as a hostile and why there wasn't any intercept by the military jets. As of now, it's being stated as possibly being MH370, not confirmed yet as apparently the military radar has no capability of confirming, well that's what came out of the PC at least. It just appears as a dot and identified as a civilian plane apparently. I have no idea how radar works so I'm merely stating what came out of the PC.

Thought it was a good PC myself, the minister handled himself well considering how he was getting bombarded(understandable) quite a few times during the PC.

The military radar would have no way of knowing if it was a civilian aircraft if the transponder was off. If the transponder was on, then not only would they know it was a civilian aircraft but they would know which one, in which case it wouldnt be part of the investigation.

The military radar was primary contact only, the aircrafts transponder was off, so all the RADAR knows was that there was a big metal thing in the sky. The fact that they have not been able to look at civilian secondary radar (that will see the transponder signals of working aircraft) and link that primary contact with a known civilian aircraft certainly suggests that it was the 777 that was seen intermittently tracking west across the peninsular

 

[Pexbo]

The military radar would have no way of knowing if it was a civilian aircraft if the transponder was off. If the transponder was on, then not only would they know it was a civilian aircraft but they would know which one, in which case it wouldnt be part of the investigation.

The military radar was primary contact only, the aircrafts transponder was off, so all the RADAR knows was that there was a big metal thing in the sky. The fact that they have not been able to look at civilian secondary radar (that will see the transponder signals of working aircraft) and link that primary contact with a known civilian aircraft certainly suggests that it was the 777 that was seen intermittently tracking west across the peninsular

Is it possible that with the transponder off and the only knowledge that a massive aircraft is flying around and not responding to any of their communications that the Military could have panicked and taken it out and are now avoiding a PR nightmare?

 

[Snowjoe]

Is it possible that with the transponder off and the only knowledge that a massive aircraft is flying around and not responding to any of their communications that the Military could have panicked and taken it out and are now avoiding a PR nightmare?

I'd expect it'd be more likely for them to send jets up to check it out than just shoot it out of the sky.

That is however based on pure assumption and no knowledge of how they work whatsoever.

 

[coolredwine]

Brilliant.

Yes, because I have relatives who are serving in the Indian Defense and one of the airlines here. Hence I know.

 

[Dracula]

Is it possible that with the transponder off and the only knowledge that a massive aircraft is flying around and not responding to any of their communications that the Military could have panicked and taken it out and are now avoiding a PR nightmare?

Definately. Its happened before when the US shot down an Iranian civilian airliner. Which is what many believe Lockerbie was revenge for.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Each passing day makes this look more and more like a cover up.

 

[Red Dreams]

just think of the lawsuits...

yup...

 

[JulesWinnfield]

The military radar would have no way of knowing if it was a civilian aircraft if the transponder was off. If the transponder was on, then not only would they know it was a civilian aircraft but they would know which one, in which case it wouldnt be part of the investigation.

The military radar was primary contact only, the aircrafts transponder was off, so all the RADAR knows was that there was a big metal thing in the sky. The fact that they have not been able to look at civilian secondary radar (that will see the transponder signals of working aircraft) and link that primary contact with a known civilian aircraft certainly suggests that it was the 777 that was seen intermittently tracking west across the peninsular

What is the purpose of the pilots even being able to turn the transponder off? I would have thought that's the kind of thing you'd want on at all times regardless.

 

[crappycraperson]

I'd expect it'd be more likely for them to send jets up to check it out than just shoot it out of the sky.

That is however based on pure assumption and no knowledge of how they work whatsoever.

I must say this sounds very likely to me

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Each passing day makes this look more and more like a cover up.

But of what? It could originally have been something as personal as a radar operator's guilt or fear of having been negligent.

Even assuming that it was mistakenly shot down and that the air force attempted to send the SAR teams in the wrong direction, they don't hold sway over China or the US or the like. I would imagine that these wasters are fairly well populated by the navies of numerous countries, that we have no corroborating radar track from a ship is unfortunate.

This. I've no idea of the relevance of a pilot once having invited passengers up to the cockpit. They really are clutching at straws.

I would just hope that this story isn't a precursor to a wider narrative of character assassination of the pilots, particularly with no current evidence to drive such a theory.

The possibility that 777s migh now need a especial monitoring in case of structural weakness was news to me however.

 

[Getsme]

Definately. Its happened before when the US shot down an Iranian civilian airliner. Which is what many believe Lockerbie was revenge for.

Really?
Didn't know that.

 

[Anderson's Cat]

There'll be a movie about this some day.

 

[simon_xazza]

There'll be a movie about this some day.

A very good episode of Air crash investigation at the very least

 

[Anderson's Cat]

A very good episode of Air crash investigation at the very least

It'll have to be a 2 part episode at this rate!

 

[simon_xazza]

The air France flight to Brazil took a while to locate too If i remember correctly.

 

[Anderson's Cat]

The air France flight to Brazil took a while to locate too If i remember correctly.

5 days I think.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Really?
Didn't know that.

It's not an exact replica of this situation however the controversy surrounding Itavia 870 does demonstrate that cover-ups have been attempted to one degree or another. Initially that a missile could have been responsible and then to avoid digging into the nation's past in regard to terrorism.

ACI episode:

Spoiler