Countering a counter attacking team.

SAred

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Firstly love Ole give him the job, so no knee jerk reaction from today's loss.

Since Ole has got here he has been the Anti LVG not to bothered about possession and hitting teams on the counter and it has worked a treat. But it hit a brick wall today when coming up against a very good team that plays similar football, so how is the best way to counter a team like Wolves who's strength is the same has United's.
 
SAred said:
Firstly love Ole give him the job, so no knee jerk reaction from today's loss.

Since Ole has got here he has been the Anti LVG not to bothered about possession and hitting teams on the counter and it has worked a treat. But it hit a brick wall today when coming up against a very good team that plays similar football, so how is the best way to counter a team like Wolves who's strength is the same has United's.
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Do whatever this lot is doing:

a3qKDbX.png
 
SAred said:
Firstly love Ole give him the job, so no knee jerk reaction from today's loss.

Since Ole has got here he has been the Anti LVG not to bothered about possession and hitting teams on the counter and it has worked a treat. But it hit a brick wall today when coming up against a very good team that plays similar football, so how is the best way to counter a team like Wolves who's strength is the same has United's.
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Be good at using possession to hurt teams. Like City. Or United teams under SAF.
 
Samid said:
Do whatever this lot is doing:

a3qKDbX.png
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Wolves clearly play differently against Huddersfield, and every other team, than they do against top 6 teams.

The answer is you need to be able to break teams down who sit deep and defend well. Nothing most of us haven't heard. Move the ball quickly, off the ball movement, good first touch and quick decision making. And you need mostly technically adept players.
 
Did feel like the counter attack was never rarely on tonight.
 
adexkola said:
Be good at using possession to hurt teams. Like City. Or United teams under SAF.
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Did not work today had close to 60% possession against a very well drilled counter attacking team when United's strength under Ole has been the quick counter.
Irwin99 said:
Did feel like the counter attack was never rarely on tonight.
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Wolves where doing the countering, United had most possession but could not find away through and when lost possession Wolves played to their strength which is United's strength.
With the front 3 geared for counter attacking football, possession base football played straight into Wolves hands so how could United counter this just sit back and let Wolves or
similar teams play a different game to what they are used to.
 
I don't think playing counter football against a counter attack team is an issue, but we set up as if we didn't even understand we were playing a counter attacking team.

We had our strikers out wide as if we were expecting their fullbacks to be pushing up the pitch, and then had no one up front at all and lingard as a no10 playing in behind no one.

We set up as if we were expecting them to have everyone except their centrebacks in attack.

It cost us the game imo and it's quite mind boggling what discussions Ole, phelan etc. Had to come to the conclusion that it was the correct way to play. What exactly were they expecting to happen?

More alarming is that we didn't change it until we were 2-0 down. 70 odd minutes at least where regardless of the thought process before the game, it obviously wasn't working. We could have changed things without even making a sub at any point.
 
This is a good question and I was thinking about this whilst watching...I think in an ideal world this is the answer:

Bubz27 said:
The answer is you need to be able to break teams down who sit deep and defend well. Nothing most of us haven't heard. Move the ball quickly, off the ball movement, good first touch and quick decision making. And you need mostly technically adept players.
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But short of this if you aren’t a Barca, or more pertinently if you have our current team with its strengths and limitations, what should we do?

Probably still try to play like this, but get opened up to being on the end of results like this game. I don’t really know. Cos the other option of two counter attacking sides both just sitting back makes me think of the old rugby union teams who just kept kicking it back and forward to each other.
 
Make fewer mistakes when defending off the ball and, finally, stop treating Rashford/Martial/Lingard like they are the reincarnation of Ronaldo/Rooney/Tevez. The latter three could win you any match. The former three can't, simple as.

Meaning... when your players in the attacking half of the pitch can't win 50/50 balls, can't get first to second balls and can't beat their marker unless they're afforded enough space to run with the ball or get in behind, there's not much you can expect. You either change the players or you go Fergie-style by stretching the pitch horizontally (long diagonal to wide areas) and throw the kitchen sink at them.
 
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noodlehair said:
I don't think playing counter football against a counter attack team is an issue, but we set up as if we didn't even understand we were playing a counter attacking team.

We had our strikers out wide as if we were expecting their fullbacks to be pushing up the pitch, and then had no one up front at all and lingard as a no10 playing in behind no one.

We set up as if we were expecting them to have everyone except their centrebacks in attack.

It cost us the game imo and it's quite mind boggling what discussions Ole, phelan etc. Had to come to the conclusion that it was the correct way to play. What exactly were they expecting to happen?

More alarming is that we didn't change it until we were 2-0 down. 70 odd minutes at least where regardless of the thought process before the game, it obviously wasn't working. We could have changed things without even making a sub at any point.
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Agreed with all this. I thought we'd end up with Pogba-Herrera as a 2 once Pogba was struggling and maybe Mata comes on and we play 4-2-3-1 or just mirror them and go 3 at the back by bringing on a CB, but we just sorta sleepwalked into a defeat.

For all the talk about Lukaku being 3rd choice behind Martial and Rashford, he's miles ahead of both against teams set up very deep, which makes sense, because he's bigger and older, but still.
 
It’s clear that our forwards crave on spaces and counter attacking , this is the second game in a raw where we deprived from it.
The solution for this game was to give them the ball and wait, similar to what Jose used to do, either by playing long or bring Young in to do the job.
 
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Juventus showed what to do against Atletico. Don’t overcommit men forward, play fairly direct and cross from deeper positions.
 
Send all the defenders forward for corners, then let Shaw and Dalot take short corners that amount to nothing, leaving us open at the back to be counter attacked

...

Repeat the above several times.

School boy tactics.
 
We have to wake up to the fact that at this time (or maybe never) Martial and Rashford aint good enough to win games on their own if the team struggles. Lingard has 5-6 good games a year. We should be at a Barca/City standard of putting teams to the sword. Some brag we are the biggest club in the world, yet we dont play that way nor have the players to be the best. We have slipped a long long way. The biggest club in the world should be putting the likes of the Wanderers to bed.
 
Flanders Devil said:
But short of this if you aren’t a Barca, or more pertinently if you have our current team with its strengths and limitations, what should we do?
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Is the cup half full or half empty?

I've said it in other OGS threads and player performance threads but there should be tactics and coaching to set up to dominate possession from the get go. We may have had 60% today but it was because Wolves gave it to us in areas where they knew we couldn't hurt them. It's a different scenario if it comes top down to play with the ball, knowing full well, teams will be happy to concede, press and harress you at every opportunity and every pass, sideways or forwards will possibly lead to a counter attacking opportunity.

It builds your possession game, your technique, your structure and ability to control the flow of the game. Conceding possession and just trying to hit on the break has been a brilliant tactic by OGS thus far but we need to evolve from that because it's still a bit basic, relying on individual talent and instinct.

I'm not saying we will suddenly turn into Barca/City/Arsenal after a year or two playing like this (look at how long it took for PSG to evolve under the syngery of managers like Blanc and the continuous squad investment) but it will improve the dynamic of your ability to break teams down.

We may still decide to play counter attacking against better opposition but that 30-40% will be better quality than what we are doing now.

And ergo, the 60% we had today wouldn't put us in a situation where we've given the ball but are hurt on the counter because we're not used to having it and being pressed hard.
 
TMDaines said:
Juventus showed what to do against Atletico. Don’t overcommit men forward, play fairly direct and cross from deeper positions.
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Yep, but it's pretty useless playing direct to Rashford and Martial.
 
Flanders Devil said:
This is a good question and I was thinking about this whilst watching...I think in an ideal world this is the answer:



But short of this if you aren’t a Barca, or more pertinently if you have our current team with its strengths and limitations, what should we do?

Probably still try to play like this, but get opened up to being on the end of results like this game. I don’t really know. Cos the other option of two counter attacking sides both just sitting back makes me think of the old rugby union teams who just kept kicking it back and forward to each other.
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Draw them out. Give them possession. Make them play with it, but don't press them until the ball gets into midfield. Win the ball back, quick passes forward. Counter the mistakes/loss of possessions.

Basically exactly what Wolves did to us today. We're asking this question, but Wolves had the same questioned asked of them today. They were just happy to play the underdog.

I remember Jose doing it to Fulham in his first spell at Chelsea. For 10 minutes it looked like Fulham were about to take the game to Chelsea. Then Chelsea upped everything, won the ball in midfield and were ruthless and clinical.

The problem with this tactic is we're generally shite at pressing and we go through huge spells were every pass is the safe pass. Herrera's been great recently, but today everything was safe. Nothing through the lines. To exact this tactic, you need to hunt intelligently in packs and play quick, incisive passes. Think of the pass Neves played to Jota for the Romero save today. At no point in the game did we have that amount of space to play into (Maybe Rashford early in the second half, but his touch and shot were shite and he missed the target.) We just didn't draw them out, Neves never goes beyond the ball, they have 3 CBs who stay back and Jonny and Doherty get back quickly and effectively.
 
Samid said:
Do whatever this lot is doing:

a3qKDbX.png
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You can't though, because you are not Huddersfield. That's the main downfall of counterattacking tactics, if both set out to do the same nothing happens.

Invariably it ends up forcing one side to take the initiative, Wolves v Huddersfield and United v Wolves.
 
we need to work on offensive patterns. mostly under OGS we played without the ball on purpose and use the speed of counter attacks for the best results but this match we had 60+% possesion and didn't know what to do . no combinations. nothing from the flank on the outside, no crosses into box until minute 94.
 
abdo99 said:
we need to work on offensive patterns. mostly under OGS we played without the ball on purpose and use the speed of counter attacks for the best results but this match we had 60+% possesion and didn't know what to do . no combinations. nothing from the flank on the outside, no crosses into box until minute 94.
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This. Today’s loss was more to do with players not being sharp. If they were match fit we could have opened wolves up with quick forward passes and combinations. Instead it was zombie Football.
 
Well, you dominate them on the ball. It's as simple really. Were not going to be a top team trying to consistently play the way we did at Spurs and Arsenal. In this day and age, you need to also be able to dominate teams into submission. That's what the big teams try to do.

I feel we've fallen back into the trap of plucky, small time football a bit. Ole needs to bring back the flavour he initially instilled. Go for the throat.
 
City got 4 points against them and Liverpool have 3 from 1 league match. Wolves are well organized and a good team with confident front players but its not like they are unbeatable.

Coady is their weak point defensively, makes barely any headers (least in the league out of CBs to play more than 4 matches) and yet still managed to score an own goal with a header a few months ago. So that would suggest quality balls into the box and players joining the attack will get some joy.

Today Wolves CBs made 2 aerials in total. So clearly that wasnt part of our gameplan
 
Freak said:
This. Today’s loss was more to do with players not being sharp. If they were match fit we could have opened wolves up with quick forward passes and combinations. Instead it was zombie Football.
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yeah the performance was trash, and the few times United wasn't shooting itself in the foot and could actually break Wolves just fouled.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Well, you dominate them on the ball. It's as simple really. Were not going to be a top team trying to consistently play the way we did at Spurs and Arsenal. In this day and age, you need to also be able to dominate teams into submission. That's what the big teams try to do.

I feel we've fallen back into the trap of plucky, small time football a bit. Ole needs to bring back the flavour he initially instilled. Go for the throat.
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This.
 
It would have helped to have Lukaku available yesterday, and in general against teams that sit back. We lack presence in the penalty area with the Martial/Rashford/Jesse line-up.
 
criticalanalysis said:
Is the cup half full or half empty?

I've said it in other OGS threads and player performance threads but there should be tactics and coaching to set up to dominate possession from the get go. We may have had 60% today but it was because Wolves gave it to us in areas where they knew we couldn't hurt them. It's a different scenario if it comes top down to play with the ball, knowing full well, teams will be happy to concede, press and harress you at every opportunity and every pass, sideways or forwards will possibly lead to a counter attacking opportunity.

It builds your possession game, your technique, your structure and ability to control the flow of the game. Conceding possession and just trying to hit on the break has been a brilliant tactic by OGS thus far but we need to evolve from that because it's still a bit basic, relying on individual talent and instinct.

I'm not saying we will suddenly turn into Barca/City/Arsenal after a year or two playing like this (look at how long it took for PSG to evolve under the syngery of managers like Blanc and the continuous squad investment) but it will improve the dynamic of your ability to break teams down.

We may still decide to play counter attacking against better opposition but that 30-40% will be better quality than what we are doing now.

And ergo, the 60% we had today wouldn't put us in a situation where we've given the ball but are hurt on the counter because we're not used to having it and being pressed hard.
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The cup is definitely half full - if not, more than half full! I think what you’ve described is what I think we should be playing against the ‘lesser’ teams.

And employing a tactic such as the below quote by @Bubz27 For the ‘stronger’ teams.

This is clear in theory. However what makes football great is that it’s never that simple or clear cut. In this case, being realistic and pragmatic about where we are at now in terms of our ability to execute this game plan effectively; and the fact that, whilst I believe we are the stronger team, Wolves are not clearly a ‘lesser’ team. To me it’s these factors that make this tactical decision not a straight forward one.

What would I do? Logically, and not in retrospect, I agree with your approach, and would accept that it comes with risks. Irrationally and in hindsight, it would seem tactically naive and almost arrogant to take this approach.

Bubz27 said:
Draw them out. Give them possession. Make them play with it, but don't press them until the ball gets into midfield. Win the ball back, quick passes forward. Counter the mistakes/loss of possessions.

Basically exactly what Wolves did to us today. We're asking this question, but Wolves had the same questioned asked of them today. They were just happy to play the underdog.

I remember Jose doing it to Fulham in his first spell at Chelsea. For 10 minutes it looked like Fulham were about to take the game to Chelsea. Then Chelsea upped everything, won the ball in midfield and were ruthless and clinical.

The problem with this tactic is we're generally shite at pressing and we go through huge spells were every pass is the safe pass. Herrera's been great recently, but today everything was safe. Nothing through the lines. To exact this tactic, you need to hunt intelligently in packs and play quick, incisive passes. Think of the pass Neves played to Jota for the Romero save today. At no point in the game did we have that amount of space to play into (Maybe Rashford early in the second half, but his touch and shot were shite and he missed the target.) We just didn't draw them out, Neves never goes beyond the ball, they have 3 CBs who stay back and Jonny and Doherty get back quickly and effectively.
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When an opponent sits deep with their midfield just in front of the defence, the best tactic is to take long shots and to be unpredictably direct. Doing so can lead to defelections, ricochets and cause goalkeeping errors because the box is too crowded to see through. It also forces the midfield to close down quickly and break formation, hopefully creating openings.

Rashford had the right idea. His knuckle-ball shot is intended to assist as much as it's intended to score. Pogba tried it as well a couple of times.
 
Dante said:
When an opponent sits deep with their midfield just in front of the defence, the best tactic is to take long shots and to be unpredictably direct. Doing so can lead to defelections, ricochets and cause goalkeeping errors because the box is too crowded to see through. It also forces the midfield to close down quickly and break formation, hopefully creating openings.

Rashford had the right idea. His knuckle-ball shot is intended to assist as much as it's intended to score. Pogba tried it as well a couple of times.
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It's one tactic, and it can be effective if your teammates are ready to pounce. But we should also be able to pass through a defence and offer a threat from set pieces, which were alarmingly absent from the Wolves game.
 
Freak said:
This. Today’s loss was more to do with players not being sharp. If they were match fit we could have opened wolves up with quick forward passes and combinations. Instead it was zombie Football.
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all the top teams have trained movements and are fully drilled each player in attack . city seems to work a tap in nearly every game. Messi pass into alba is the signature move of Barcelona and so on. there's a real lack of cohesion in our football - passes underhit, passes overhit, runs not being made when pass is made, pass not coming when run has been made etc . its like we wait for it to happen by chance and didn't work on it beforehand in the training. the combination we did in oles first game between Lingard, rashford and martial was very good. I thought we might see some more of it.
 
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