Cristiano Ronaldo should go down as top 5-6 players of all time

SirMarcusRashford

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Cristiano has now played 442 more games than Ronaldo, that's a massive amount. Ronaldo's goal average is better than Cristiano internationally and much more impactful goals. If Ronaldo plays 1050 games like Cristiano, scoring at the same clip as he did in his career, he would have scored 720 career goals. It's a shame we never saw that.
That's the thing though, he may not either and there's more chance he wouldn't have.

How Ronaldo/Messi have been consistent the way they have (ie the best for 10+ years) is rare in football, winning the amount of Ballon d'Or's they have between them is unseen before in football. But your reply just proves my point, Brazil Ronaldo's legacy is judged from things he did age 22/23 (and younger), if Mbappe gets injured now and is never the same again, would he be an alltime great? Would his legacy be judged on a 'what if?' how about Freddy Adu if he got a bad injury at 15, would we be saying 'what if' with him? Doesn't work like that, if he never got injured Brazil Ronaldo may have got to 25 and be declining year after year anyway (like Rooney) or be bang average for the next 10 years like Adriano, what would his legacy be then? Still great no doubt, but top5?

'What if' his injury actually helped his career, in that he had to change a few things that he wouldn't have done if he never got injured? Brazil Ronaldo had weight problems, liked partying, it's highly doubtful he would have had the longevity of a C.Ronaldo/Messi/Maldini anyway and winning Ballon d'Ors aged 30+.

But once again we just don't know.
 
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Krakenzero

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Why is the thread title still suggesting top 5-6 players of all time?

He’s clearly top three, absolutely no doubt.

I mean who has him 5th or 6th?
When you check stats (which is the less terrible way to compare different players from different eras), you'll see that he is behind at least 5-6 players, particularly in the greatest tournament (the WC) in which he probably isn't even in the top 20. It's not that big of a mistery.
 

Acrobat7

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Why is the thread title still suggesting top 5-6 players of all time?

He’s clearly top three, absolutely no doubt.

I mean who has him 5th or 6th?
I think even you can agree that Ronaldo is not „clearly top three“ since a lot/most will have Pele, Maradona, Messi there.
 

RooneyLegend

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and if you transport pele to today he still won’t be as good of a playmaker or dribbler as Messi
Pele was a second striker, he didn't need to be a playmaker or dribbler like Messi. He just needed to get it don't and he did at every level in dominant fashion from a productivity standpoint. The most accomplished player ever easily.

Btw Pele was double footed which Messi is not, he was a much better athlete than Messi, he could actually head the ball and the likes.
 

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Can I ask this : Has C Ronaldo had an influence on the Portugal National team?
Yes.
Has this at all been influenced by Ronaldo's successful move from Portugal to England. Has it been influenced by a Portugal player being one of the two best players in the world for a decade?
Its a combination of factors.

First, Bosman Ruling, second, the generation of Figo, Rui Costa, Paulo Sousa or Fernando Couto leaving the country to be successful in stronger leagues.

Third, the improvement of youth football infrastructures and coaches, fourth, Ronaldo.

But it’s soon to say this generation is the most complete. For me the best football played by Portugal was Euro 2000.
 

Daysleeper

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Pele was a second striker, he didn't need to be a playmaker or dribbler like Messi. He just needed to get it don't and he did at every level in dominant fashion from a productivity standpoint. The most accomplished player ever easily.

Btw Pele was double footed which Messi is not, he was a much better athlete than Messi, he could actually head the ball and the likes.
wasn’t as good of a passer or free kick taker, nor as good of a dribbler. Pele was also on santos teams that would win several games 10-1, goal scoring Messi is just as good. And Messi is the better playmaker.

pele played for national teams where even if he was on the bench they were still winning world cups.
 

RedRonaldo

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When you check stats (which is the less terrible way to compare different players from different eras), you'll see that he is behind at least 5-6 players, particularly in the greatest tournament (the WC) in which he probably isn't even in the top 20. It's not that big of a mistery.
Stats and facts? Lets check it here:

5 times Ballon D'or winner, 6 times Ballon D'or runners up (2nd in all time record, only slightly behind Messi, but far far ahead of everyone else)
770+ career goals scored, (all time record in top level, better than Pele)
5 CL won, all won as best player in competition (all time record, only Di Stefano equals or comparable to him)
1 Euro won (first and only in Portugal history)
overall 30+ trophies won (among top 2 or 3)
103+ International goals scored, (all time European record, far ahead of everyone else)
top scorer in CL, (all time record)
top assist in CL, (all time record)

Please, name me 5-6 players better than him, by stats and facts check only, but not by your own subjective opinions.
Seriously, I can't even name 1 player who is clearly above him, based on stats and fact check alone, let along 5-6
At most, there is only 2 players throughout the history, who is comparable to him. (Messi and Pele)
 
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Gio

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When you check stats (which is the less terrible way to compare different players from different eras), you'll see that he is behind at least 5-6 players, particularly in the greatest tournament (the WC) in which he probably isn't even in the top 20. It's not that big of a mistery.
He’s probably well outside the top 100 in the World Cup.

Obviously how that weighs up compared to everything else is key.
 

Krakenzero

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Facts? Lets check it here:



5 times Ballon D'or winner, 6 times Ballon D'or runners up (2nd in all time record, only slightly behind Messi, and far far ahead of everyone else)

770+ career goals scored, (all time record in top level, better than Pele)

5 CL won, (all time record)

1 Euro won (first and only in Portugal history)

overall 30+ trophies won (among top 3)

103+ International goals scored, (all time European record)

top scorer in CL, (all time record)

top assist in CL, (all time record)



Please, name me 5-6 players better than him, by facts check only, but not by your own subjective opinions.

Seriously, I can't even name 1 player who is clearly above him, based on fact check alone, let along 5-6

At most, there is only 2 players throughout the history, who is comparable to him.


I'll be happy to.



1. Individual awards aren't really relevant in team sports, specially since 2009 when the criteria to choose the most popular ones changed significantly. But you already mentioned Messi, and then there's Pelé and Maradona, all of whom were also awarded as the best players of a WC.



2. First of all, it's not an all time record. Second of all, career goals aren't a good way to compare eras, since the amounts of official matches played, the relevance of them and the strength of the opposition tend to vary. That's why we don't include Helmchen, Bican, Puskas and Deak in the GOAT debate even when they have more career goals than Cristiano Ronaldo. But if you want to compare it to Pelé, he has like 15 goals less while also having played 252 games less, therefore having a goal-to-match ratio overwhelmingly superior to CR7. As a matter of fact, almost everyone in the top 15 has a better ratio than him.



3. UCL winning record just isn't true, since Paco Gento have won it 6 times (and you don't see his name in the GOAT discussions, which is a takeaway in itself). Maybe you were referring to the record since the UCL has that name, in which case isn't an all-time record but a "since the mid 90s" kind of record, which makes it incomparable with most of the other all-time greats and therefore irrelevant for the discussion.



4. Euro AND Nations League won, which is astounding for Portugal. Altough, in the biggest tournaments for that matter the best performance for Portugal is still the 3rd place of Eusebio's 1966 team. As a matter of fact, Cristiano in 4 WC hasn't been able to match Eusebio's goalscoring record in just one. And, considering only the Continental Cup feat, guys like Romario, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Francescoli, Xavi or Iniesta have similar or more impressive feats. Hell, Alexis Sánchez won 2 (one even as the Best Player of the tournaments).



5. Overall trophies won isn't a good measure and I shouldn't need to explain why. First of all, the number of tournaments has multiplied since the 90s. Second of all, the vast majority of these tournaments aren't relevant in a GOAT discussion (a WC is not the same as winning the Scottish League, for that matter). And third, there's a reason why Glasgow Rangers is not considered one of the greatest clubs of all time.



6. The number of international goals is impressive until you consider the factors of number of games played and the relevance of those particular goals. When we discount friendlies CR7's number go down to 85 in 124 matches. When we substract the goals in qualifying stages (where the opposition is significantly weaker, particularly in UEFA's qualifying system) he gets 22 goals in 46 matches played. The same exercise leaves Pelé with 20 in 20, Ronaldo with 34 in 42, Romario with 26 in 32, Batistuta with 27 in 33, Muller with 18 in 15, and so on.



7. UCL records are relevant if you're willing to ignore that in the past century not everyone played it, there were a lot of less games played, the overall relevance it had was smaller, and therefore most of the GOAT candidates didn't play it that much (or at all). The few that did (Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Müller) also have impressive numbers considering the scale of the tournament at the time.



8. Finally, the list of players. This has to include players that have reached major success in NT, clubs, and have reached legend status in the WC (that has been the most important football competition for almost 100 years and counting). The hall of fame here is short:

-Pelé

-Beckenbauer

-Maradona

-Cruyff (debatable)



The ones who come next would need at least 2 of the previously mentioned conditions, hopefully WC legend status being one of them:

-Di Stefano

-Ronaldo

-Müller

-Zidane

-Garrincha

-Puskas

-Eusebio

-Meazza

-Matthaus

-Romario

-C. Ronaldo

-Messi (debatable)



I hope this helps.
 

Sky1981

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I'll be happy to.



1. Individual awards aren't really relevant in team sports, specially since 2009 when the criteria to choose the most popular ones changed significantly. But you already mentioned Messi, and then there's Pelé and Maradona, all of whom were also awarded as the best players of a WC.



2. First of all, it's not an all time record. Second of all, career goals aren't a good way to compare eras, since the amounts of official matches played, the relevance of them and the strength of the opposition tend to vary. That's why we don't include Helmchen, Bican, Puskas and Deak in the GOAT debate even when they have more career goals than Cristiano Ronaldo. But if you want to compare it to Pelé, he has like 15 goals less while also having played 252 games less, therefore having a goal-to-match ratio overwhelmingly superior to CR7. As a matter of fact, almost everyone in the top 15 has a better ratio than him.



3. UCL winning record just isn't true, since Paco Gento have won it 6 times (and you don't see his name in the GOAT discussions, which is a takeaway in itself). Maybe you were referring to the record since the UCL has that name, in which case isn't an all-time record but a "since the mid 90s" kind of record, which makes it incomparable with most of the other all-time greats and therefore irrelevant for the discussion.



4. Euro AND Nations League won, which is astounding for Portugal. Altough, in the biggest tournaments for that matter the best performance for Portugal is still the 3rd place of Eusebio's 1966 team. As a matter of fact, Cristiano in 4 WC hasn't been able to match Eusebio's goalscoring record in just one. And, considering only the Continental Cup feat, guys like Romario, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Francescoli, Xavi or Iniesta have similar or more impressive feats. Hell, Alexis Sánchez won 2 (one even as the Best Player of the tournaments).



5. Overall trophies won isn't a good measure and I shouldn't need to explain why. First of all, the number of tournaments has multiplied since the 90s. Second of all, the vast majority of these tournaments aren't relevant in a GOAT discussion (a WC is not the same as winning the Scottish League, for that matter). And third, there's a reason why Glasgow Rangers is not considered one of the greatest clubs of all time.



6. The number of international goals is impressive until you consider the factors of number of games played and the relevance of those particular goals. When we discount friendlies CR7's number go down to 85 in 124 matches. When we substract the goals in qualifying stages (where the opposition is significantly weaker, particularly in UEFA's qualifying system) he gets 22 goals in 46 matches played. The same exercise leaves Pelé with 20 in 20, Ronaldo with 34 in 42, Romario with 26 in 32, Batistuta with 27 in 33, Muller with 18 in 15, and so on.



7. UCL records are relevant if you're willing to ignore that in the past century not everyone played it, there were a lot of less games played, the overall relevance it had was smaller, and therefore most of the GOAT candidates didn't play it that much (or at all). The few that did (Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Müller) also have impressive numbers considering the scale of the tournament at the time.



8. Finally, the list of players. This has to include players that have reached major success in NT, clubs, and have reached legend status in the WC (that has been the most important football competition for almost 100 years and counting). The hall of fame here is short:

-Pelé

-Beckenbauer

-Maradona

-Cruyff (debatable)



The ones who come next would need at least 2 of the previously mentioned conditions, hopefully WC legend status being one of them:

-Di Stefano

-Ronaldo

-Müller

-Zidane

-Garrincha

-Puskas

-Eusebio

-Meazza

-Matthaus

-Romario

-C. Ronaldo

-Messi (debatable)



I hope this helps.
You missed klose on the list by the way. Since nothing else matters but world cup
 

NasirTimothy

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Stats and facts? Lets check it here:

5 times Ballon D'or winner, 6 times Ballon D'or runners up (2nd in all time record, only slightly behind Messi, but far far ahead of everyone else)
Not definitive, as Pele and Maradona were not eligible for this award and DiStefano played at a time when you were not allowed to win it 2 years in a row.

770+ career goals scored, (all time record in top level, better than Pele)
Pele has 1279 goals, it’s in the Guinness Book of Records. Let’s stop pretending that goals he scored during a punishing touring schedule all over the world don’t count. This article explains his circumstances very well for those who don’t understand the contextual differences:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....n-story-of-pele-and-the-santos-touring-circus

5 CL won, all won as best player in competition (all time record, only Di Stefano equals or comparable to him)
DiStefano scored in every final and was a player who played all over the pitch, unlike CR who increasingly confined himself to the penalty area. Also, 5 CL/EC wins is not a record as Gento has 6.

1 Euro won (first and only in Portugal history)
A great achievement by Portugal but also achieved by countries like Czechoslovakia, Denmark and Greece. Ronaldo was not the best player in that tournament: he scored 3 goals (the record is 9 in 5 games by Platini) and was injured in the final after 20 minutes: his team then proceeded to win the trophy without him.

overall 30+ trophies won (among top 2 or 3)
Playing for superclubs in the post- Bosman era; squads compiled of the best players from around the world and costing hundreds and hundreds of millions. Nevertheless, many players have won lots of trophies even in earlier eras when you usually had to play with 10 people from your own country. When CR plays with 10 people from his own country, he’s considerably less superhuman.

103+ International goals scored, (all time European record, far ahead of everyone else)
In 173 games. Kudos for longevity, but that’s way more games than virtually everyone else and a lot of those games were against cannon fodder in qualifying. 9 games v Luxembourg is one of many examples. His goal to game ratio is worse than many of the other prolific international goalscorers

top scorer in CL, (all time record)
Again due to the fact that he’s played by far the most games. Which is a credit to his durability, but he’s not the most prolific if you look at ratios.

top assist in CL, (all time record)
All time, or just in the champions league era? Not sure the figures are available for the entirety of the competition. Probably true though because people like Muller, Puskas and DiStefano played about a third of the games (at most) because they didn’t have a group stage and you actually had to be the champions of your country (or of the previous year’s CL) to enter. If CR was operating under those rules, he’d only have 2 CLs, not 5

Please, name me 5-6 players better than him, by stats and facts check only, but not by your own subjective opinions.
I’d argue that Pele, Maradona, Messi and DiStefano are all definitely better players. What do you mean by ‘stats and fact check?’ I’m assuming that you probably mean ‘goals’, in which case there’s quite a few more prolific goalscorers by ratio (Puskas, Romario, Muller, Pele, Messi etc)

Seriously, I can't even name 1 player who is clearly above him, based on stats and fact check alone, let along 5-6
At most, there is only 2 players throughout the history, who is comparable to him. (Messi and Pele)
I’ve just named a few for you, when you put the stats and trophies in context. But the problem is, it’s not just about stats. I’ve seen someone like Diego Maradona play, and the idea that CR might be a better footballer than him is frankly ludicrous to me. CR is an all time great player, but Diego was a genius.
 

Spoony

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Not definitive, as Pele and Maradona were not eligible for this award and DiStefano played at a time when you were not allowed to win it 2 years in a row.



Pele has 1279 goals, it’s in the Guinness Book of Records. Let’s stop pretending that goals he scored during a punishing touring schedule all over the world don’t count. This article explains his circumstances very well for those who don’t understand the contextual differences:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....n-story-of-pele-and-the-santos-touring-circus



DiStefano scored in every final and was a player who played all over the pitch, unlike CR who increasingly confined himself to the penalty area. Also, 5 CL/EC wins is not a record as Gento has 6.



A great achievement by Portugal but also achieved by countries like Czechoslovakia, Denmark and Greece. Ronaldo was not the best player in that tournament: he scored 3 goals (the record is 9 in 5 games by Platini) and was injured in the final after 20 minutes: his team then proceeded to win the trophy without him.



Playing for superclubs in the post- Bosman era; squads compiled of the best players from around the world and costing hundreds and hundreds of millions. Nevertheless, many players have won lots of trophies even in earlier eras when you usually had to play with 10 people from your own country. When CR plays with 10 people from his own country, he’s considerably less superhuman.



In 173 games. Kudos for longevity, but that’s way more games than virtually everyone else and a lot of those games were against cannon fodder in qualifying. 9 games v Luxembourg is one of many examples. His goal to game ratio is worse than many of the other prolific international goalscorers



Again due to the fact that he’s played by far the most games. Which is a credit to his durability, but he’s not the most prolific if you look at ratios.



All time, or just in the champions league era? Not sure the figures are available for the entirety of the competition. Probably true though because people like Muller, Puskas and DiStefano played about a third of the games (at most) because they didn’t have a group stage and you actually had to be the champions of your country (or of the previous year’s CL) to enter. If CR was operating under those rules, he’d only have 2 CLs, not 5



I’d argue that Pele, Maradona, Messi and DiStefano are all definitely better players. What do you mean by ‘stats and fact check?’ I’m assuming that you probably mean ‘goals’, in which case there’s quite a few more prolific goalscorers by ratio (Puskas, Romario, Muller, Pele, Messi etc)



I’ve just named a few for you, when you put the stats and trophies in context. But the problem is, it’s not just about stats. I’ve seen someone like Diego Maradona play, and the idea that CR might be a better footballer than him is frankly ludicrous to me. CR is an all time great player, but Diego was a genius.

It's hilarious. I've seen Cristiano since that Lisbon friendly up to present and his best was at United, now that was great but come on... and it's debatable whether he was better than Henry never mind the up there with the very best. He's got a massive following but I suspect he'll have been pushed down the list come next generation of screaming fans.
 

Krakenzero

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You missed klose on the list by the way. Since nothing else matters but world cup
Great question. Klose has great numbers in WC while not being exactly a WC legend, but even if we give him a pass for that, the rest of his contribution NT and club wise isn't enough for him to be on a list of legends. The real question in that matter is, if Klose was able to have fantastic numbers in 4 editions of that tournament, why didn't Cristiano?
 

RooneyLegend

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wasn’t as good of a passer or free kick taker, nor as good of a dribbler. Pele was also on santos teams that would win several games 10-1, goal scoring Messi is just as good. And Messi is the better playmaker.

pele played for national teams where even if he was on the bench they were still winning world cups.
Pele was stronger, faster, jumped higher, better shooter, double footed...look, they were different players. You can't say whether he was or wasn't better free kick taker, that's guessing. This attitude that players have to be the same kind of players is stupid. Garrincha was a better dribbler than Pele, Rivelino was technically better than him and could shoot better too. That isn't saying much as you can imagine.

Brazil played through the wings(Zagallo/Garrincha and then Jairzinho/Rivelino for the 70 world cup). He played with many great players and very good teams.

It's not surprising that they won the 62 world cup without him given Garrincha played out of his mind. He's also an all time great btw. Losing Pele didn't cripple the team cause they had players who could compensate.

At club level he played alongside some of Santos' all time great players although it must be said that they didn't have huge international careers. Not exactly like he played with Didi, Garrincha, tostao at club level. The one's who did were defenders or the defensive midfielder Zito.

Fact is he dominated the game at every level, Messi did not. Let's not act like Messi didn't play in an amazingly talented generation at Barca and outside of them, whom are world champions and the likes, he hasn't dominated football despite playing with quality footballers.

You can act like Messi is the perfect footballer but he isn't. Never been the most dangerous player in transition and he's one footed. Also isn't one to consistently hit them from 25 plus yards(I know he just hit one but that was a rarity) I'm not sure a perfect footballer has ever existed, Pele, Ronaldo and Best are as close as it gets though.
 

Daysleeper

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Pele was stronger, faster, jumped higher, better shooter, double footed...look, they were different players. You can't say whether he was or wasn't better free kick taker, that's guessing. This attitude that players have to be the same kind of players is stupid. Garrincha was a better dribbler than Pele, Rivelino was technically better than him and could shoot better too. That isn't saying much as you can imagine.

Brazil played through the wings(Zagallo/Garrincha and then Jairzinho/Rivelino for the 70 world cup). He played with many great players and very good teams.

It's not surprising that they won the 62 world cup without him given Garrincha played out of his mind. He's also an all time great btw. Losing Pele didn't cripple the team cause they had players who could compensate.

At club level he played alongside some of Santos' all time great players although it must be said that they didn't have huge international careers. Not exactly like he played with Didi, Garrincha, tostao at club level. The one's who did were defenders or the defensive midfielder Zito.

Fact is he dominated the game at every level, Messi did not. Let's not act like Messi didn't play in an amazingly talented generation at Barca and outside of them, whom are world champions and the likes, he hasn't dominated football despite playing with quality footballers.

You can act like Messi is the perfect footballer but he isn't. Never been the most dangerous player in transition and he's one footed. Also isn't one to consistently hit them from 25 plus yards(I know he just hit one but that was a rarity) I'm not sure a perfect footballer has ever existed, Pele, Ronaldo and Best are as close as it gets though.
Saying he's one footed is a little ridiculous as people underrate his weak foot, he's also much better outside the box than pele was. I'd argue messi was far closer to the perfect footballer than pele or ronaldo. You really underrate Messi to the point its kind of absurd. Messi is the highest goal scorer in argentina NT history, has been to multiple finals. To act like he's this massive failure outside of Barca is just moronic. If Messi doesn't play for Argentina, they don't qualify for the world cup, pele doesn't play for Brazil, they still win the world cup. HUGE difference.

Messi also was better outside the box than pele was, messi is amazing from distance and his weak foot is very underrated:

https://www.sportbible.com/football...oals-outside-of-the-box-since-200708-20190929

Pele had headers, but I'll take Messi's playmaking over Pele's headers. And far far better competition in Messi's era (none of this multiple 10-1 matches that happened a fair bit with Santos, who never had a Real Madrid type rivalry). Pele was blessed to be brazilian, had he been Argentinian he'd have zero world cups. Hell of a talent, no question, one of the all time greats, but it's bollocks saying he's any more of a complete footballer Messi when Messi just might have the greatest combination of scoring and playmaking than anyone in history. Messi was also competing against far better athletes than Pele. Pele was able to play in some form till he was 51, in today's era that would never ever happen.


Pele also never had that defining iconic performance that people still talk about years later like Maradonna or Messi had. Hell, Pele's best scoring outputs came against absolute rubbish:


Santos 11-0 Botafogo Ribeirão Preto8
Santos 11-1 Maringá5
Santos 10-3 Nitro-Química5
Santos 10-0 Nacional5
Santos 10-1 Royal Neerschot5
Santos 10-2 Guarani5
Santos 10-1 Juventus5


World cup Achievements?

Pelé needs a reality check regarding his FIFA World Cup achievements.


Most World Cup All-Star appearancesDjalma Santos and Franz Beckenbauer, 3
Most World Cup goalsRonaldo, 15
Most World Cup goals in one finalGeoff Hurst, 3
Most World Cup goals in one tournamentJust Fontaine, 13
Most World Cup goals in one gameOleg Salenko, 5
Most World Cup gamesLothar Matthäus, 25
Most World Cup games wonCafu, 16
Most World Cup tournamentsAntonio Carbajal and Lothar Matthäus, 5


No Pele

He was never even the best world cup performer at any point:


YearGolden Boot Winner, goalsPelé's goals
1958Just Fontaine, 136
1962Six players tied, 41
1966Eusébio, 91
1970Gerd Müller, 104


Pele played on teams that were FAR ahead of what Messi played on. Hell, even when Pele didn't play, his teams still dominated. So please, prefer Pele all you want, but there's a reason why just 20 years later players like Maradona were able to outhsine him in the GOAT debate even though his goals weren't nearly as much. He played with an advantage that no other masive footballer since would have been able to enjoy. The playoff field has leveled off a lot since with more good/balanced teams compared to Pele's era.
 
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Krakenzero

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Saying he's one footed is a little ridiculous as people underrate his weak foot, he's also much better outside the box than pele was. I'd argue messi was far closer to the perfect footballer than pele or ronaldo. You really underrate Messi to the point its kind of absurd. Messi is the highest goal scorer in argentina NT history, has been to multiple finals. To act like he's this massive failure outside of Barca is just moronic. If Messi doesn't play for Argentina, they don't qualify for the world cup, pele doesn't play for Brazil, they still win the world cup. HUGE difference.

Messi also was better outside the box than pele was, messi is amazing from distance and his weak foot is very underrated:

https://www.sportbible.com/football...oals-outside-of-the-box-since-200708-20190929

Pele had headers, but I'll take Messi's playmaking over Pele's headers. And far far better competition in Messi's era (none of this multiple 10-1 matches that happened a fair bit with Santos, who never had a Real Madrid type rivalry). Pele was blessed to be brazilian, had he been Argentinian he'd have zero world cups. Hell of a talent, no question, one of the all time greats, but it's bollocks saying he's any more of a complete footballer Messi when Messi just might have the greatest combination of scoring and playmaking than anyone in history. Messi was also competing against far better athletes than Pele. Pele was able to play in some form till he was 51, in today's era that would never ever happen.


Pele also never had that defining iconic performance that people still talk about years later like Maradonna or Messi had. Hell, Pele's best scoring outputs came against absolute rubbish:


Santos 11-0 Botafogo Ribeirão Preto8
Santos 11-1 Maringá5
Santos 10-3 Nitro-Química5
Santos 10-0 Nacional5
Santos 10-1 Royal Neerschot5
Santos 10-2 Guarani5
Santos 10-1 Juventus5


World cup Achievements?

Pelé needs a reality check regarding his FIFA World Cup achievements.


Most World Cup All-Star appearancesDjalma Santos and Franz Beckenbauer, 3
Most World Cup goalsRonaldo, 15
Most World Cup goals in one finalGeoff Hurst, 3
Most World Cup goals in one tournamentJust Fontaine, 13
Most World Cup goals in one gameOleg Salenko, 5
Most World Cup gamesLothar Matthäus, 25
Most World Cup games wonCafu, 16
Most World Cup tournamentsAntonio Carbajal and Lothar Matthäus, 5


No Pele

He was never even the best world cup performer at any point:


YearGolden Boot Winner, goalsPelé's goals
1958Just Fontaine, 136
1962Six players tied, 41
1966Eusébio, 91
1970Gerd Müller, 104


Pele played on teams that were FAR ahead of what Messi played on. Hell, even when Pele didn't play, his teams still dominated. So please, prefer Pele all you want, but there's a reason why just 20 years later players like Maradona were able to outhsine him in the GOAT debate even though his goals weren't nearly as much. He played with an advantage that no other masive footballer since would have been able to enjoy. The playoff field has leveled off a lot since with more good/balanced teams compared to Pele's era.
Funny, I was looking at some of that 10-1 and most of them (if not all) are from friendlies and regional championships. The one bizarre score I found in a serious tournament was a 9-1 against Cerro Porteño in 1962 Copa Libertadores and even then, the score was 1-1 before Pelé joined the match. So it was not like Santos FC was carrying Pelé around.

I'd strongly recommend not questioning Pelé status WC wise, or big tournaments wise for that matter. But to each his own I guess.
 

cpresc

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Ronaldo has more than 100 goals more than Giggs has appearances..
 

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For me it’s between him and Messi for best ever. He’s that good.
 

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If Messi didn't exist, I think cr7 would have been viewed as clearly the greatest of all time despite the world cups. Messi existing and being a little bit better makes it look like it possible for someone else to replicate his career, its not...Maradona, Pele and anyone else never did this and would not have done this. The Zidane's weren't even consistent season to season. The irony is this, Messi's lack of leadership has created a chink in which people can use to debate his status as the greatest, when in reality, we are talking about a near flawless footballer which neither Pele or Maradona were. It feels like their seasons are being aggregated whilst nostalgia has allowed the older legends to simply be compared by their peaks, but in reality, its the season on season of supernova performances that distances them from their peers. Maradona had around 2 of those Messi/Ronaldo level seasons in his 5 year peak, R9 is a could have been story that never really came close to materializing( being part of that 02 world cup, where Rivaldo was better imo saved his legacy). Pele is the one hat's hard to judge, different type of experience and different expectations as Santos were more akin to the Harlem Globetrotters; unfortunately like Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell, competition changes and viewership levels mean his claim can't really be ratified.

For me, the problem comes from how we learnt about football. The books and highlights only discussed world cups due to the fact that leagues were not as connected as they are today. Most people could not watch multiple leagues, so simply had to listen to pundits and books bloviate about the brightest stars in the game. Even up to the 2000s, Zidane could get away with being outshined by Totti domestically because of a great Euros performance, R9 could have a career s hindered by injuries that he had no impact bar a hat trick against us in 2003 in the Champions League and still be named as a top 10 player ever due to a world cup. The game has changed, we have access to the league games in multiple countries, and like tennis have lived in an era where multiple players have dominated in ways we have never seen before. The videos of Maradona downwards are available to watch, influence wise its not close, Messi and Ronaldo are more impactful, no matter how pretty watching R9, Zidane, Maradona, Cruyff or Ronaldinho was.
 

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Funny, I was looking at some of that 10-1 and most of them (if not all) are from friendlies and regional championships. The one bizarre score I found in a serious tournament was a 9-1 against Cerro Porteño in 1962 Copa Libertadores and even then, the score was 1-1 before Pelé joined the match. So it was not like Santos FC was carrying Pelé around.

I'd strongly recommend not questioning Pelé status WC wise, or big tournaments wise for that matter. But to each his own I guess.
you absolutely can question his status.
The point was Santos was WELL ahead of any one other club at that time and World Cup yes he was great, especially in 1958 but never the best player or had that defining iconic moment which again Clem’s down to playing on teams so far ahead of everyone else. I have no problem saying he’s had a better WC career than Messi or Ronaldo but he’s also played on teams that were disproportionately better than the competition. More so than Messi and Ronaldo’s teams.
 

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Why is the thread title still suggesting top 5-6 players of all time?

He’s clearly top three, absolutely no doubt.

I mean who has him 5th or 6th?
A fair amount of people do I reckon
 

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Why is the thread title still suggesting top 5-6 players of all time?

He’s clearly top three, absolutely no doubt.

I mean who has him 5th or 6th?
I will go further and say they are 1 and 2 best players of all time. Their consistency and longevity is unmatched.
 

Zehner

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Why is the thread title still suggesting top 5-6 players of all time?

He’s clearly top three, absolutely no doubt.

I mean who has him 5th or 6th?
That leaves me scratching my head. Who out of Pele, Maradona and Messi do you think is clearly worse than him?

I think CR7 belongs in the Cruyff, Beckenbauer, di Stefano, Puskas, Zico, Best, etc. tier.

My top 4 would include Pele, Maradona, Messi and R9 in no particular order. Fifth I'd give to Cruyff. After that I'm not sure.
 

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That leaves me scratching my head. Who out of Pele, Maradona and Messi do you think is clearly worse than him?

I think CR7 belongs in the Cruyff, Beckenbauer, di Stefano, Puskas, Zico, Best, etc. tier.

My top 4 would include Pele, Maradona, Messi and R9 in no particular order. Fifth I'd give to Cruyff. After that I'm not sure.
Take world cups away, of which Pele was blessed with the best team in the world more often than not, and why wouldn’t CR7 be top 3?

I love R9, his peak was insane but doesn’t come close to CR7 for longevity, consistency or club trophies.

I’ve said before, people place so much importance on World Cup performances in this debate, sure it plays a part, but it’s not the defining factor imo. It’s a cup competition after all, susceptible to all the mitigating factors cup comps are.
Example; Is it fair to judge Best negatively because he didn’t win a World Cup? It’s impossible to win it if you don’t have a competitive team.

Maradona deserves extra points for dragging his team to World Cup victory but club level doesn’t compare well to CR7.
 
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RedRonaldo

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1. Individual awards aren't really relevant in team sports, specially since 2009 when the criteria to choose the most popular ones changed significantly. But you already mentioned Messi, and then there's Pelé and Maradona, all of whom were also awarded as the best players of a WC.
Of course its relevant, We are comparing GOAT, not greatest team of all time, individually you don't get anything better than Ballon D'ors. Ronaldo has won 5 of them, and finish runners up 6 times. Only Messi is comparable.

You may argue its not fair to the past greats who weren't eligible as many of them aren't Europeans, but in fact Ballon has published a revaluation of their awards before 1995 to include players of all nations. Pele would have won it 7 times, Maradona would have won it twice, Garricha, Kempes and Romario would have won it once, But even so, Ronaldo would still be easily among top 3 greatest ever, and far ahead of others.

2. First of all, it's not an all time record. Second of all, career goals aren't a good way to compare eras, since the amounts of official matches played, the relevance of them and the strength of the opposition tend to vary. That's why we don't include Helmchen, Bican, Puskas and Deak in the GOAT debate even when they have more career goals than Cristiano Ronaldo. But if you want to compare it to Pelé, he has like 15 goals less while also having played 252 games less, therefore having a goal-to-match ratio overwhelmingly superior to CR7. As a matter of fact, almost everyone in the top 15 has a better ratio than him.
In the top level football, it is. Sure if you include those from WWII period where majority of young men are at war (ie Bican), or those from low level regional league (Helmchen), there are a few from 30s-50s who were better. But those are irrelevant records as their level of football are far much lower (counting many goals against pub players in low level/amateur football). In other words, in terms of professional football at top level, Ronaldo is officially all time best.

3. UCL winning record just isn't true, since Paco Gento have won it 6 times (and you don't see his name in the GOAT discussions, which is a takeaway in itself). Maybe you were referring to the record since the UCL has that name, in which case isn't an all-time record but a "since the mid 90s" kind of record, which makes it incomparable with most of the other all-time greats and therefore irrelevant for the discussion.
Ronaldo won CL 5 times as best player of competition. Gento won it 6 times, but did he win it all as best player too? I don't think so. Best player from Real Madrid team at that time were Di Stefano and Puskas, Gento was a great player, but he wasn't 6 times best player when Real Madrid won it 6 times.

4. Euro AND Nations League won, which is astounding for Portugal. Altough, in the biggest tournaments for that matter the best performance for Portugal is still the 3rd place of Eusebio's 1966 team. As a matter of fact, Cristiano in 4 WC hasn't been able to match Eusebio's goalscoring record in just one. And, considering only the Continental Cup feat, guys like Romario, Ronaldo, Batistuta, Francescoli, Xavi or Iniesta have similar or more impressive feats. Hell, Alexis Sánchez won 2 (one even as the Best Player of the tournaments).
It doesn't matter. Ronaldo historically won it as captain of the team, and Portugal's most impactful player throughout the tournament (3 goals 3 assists). That's all it matter. Eusebio was a great player, but he didn't win a single trophy for Portugal. People celebrate for winning a major international trophy, but not as 3rd place finish. You are just being too obsessive with WC, and ignored everything else.

5. Overall trophies won isn't a good measure and I shouldn't need to explain why. First of all, the number of tournaments has multiplied since the 90s. Second of all, the vast majority of these tournaments aren't relevant in a GOAT discussion (a WC is not the same as winning the Scottish League, for that matter). And third, there's a reason why Glasgow Rangers is not considered one of the greatest clubs of all time.
This alone isn't a good measure, but It surely does indicate how successful he is throughout his respectful career.
But lets look at its context, Glasgow Rangers didn't manage to win 1 CL in their trophy cabinet, let alone 5. Sure they won all their domestic titles and cups, but Scottish league wasn't even top 5 league in Europe. Ronaldo won it all in top 1-3 league throughout his career, which is far more impressive.

6. The number of international goals is impressive until you consider the factors of number of games played and the relevance of those particular goals. When we discount friendlies CR7's number go down to 85 in 124 matches. When we substract the goals in qualifying stages (where the opposition is significantly weaker, particularly in UEFA's qualifying system) he gets 22 goals in 46 matches played. The same exercise leaves Pelé with 20 in 20, Ronaldo with 34 in 42, Romario with 26 in 32, Batistuta with 27 in 33, Muller with 18 in 15, and so on.
If we discount friendliness he was still the all time best. But sure you can argue if only counts goals scored in major tournament, he wasn't the best ever. But then, lets be fair, Portugal wasn't as strong as Brazil, Argentina, Germany during their prime too. You just don't expect a team like Portugal would have a goalscorer to outscored teams like Brazil, Argentina, Germany during their prime years in all major tournaments. It isn't realistic at all.

7. UCL records are relevant if you're willing to ignore that in the past century not everyone played it, there were a lot of less games played, the overall relevance it had was smaller, and therefore most of the GOAT candidates didn't play it that much (or at all). The few that did (Di Stefano, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Müller) also have impressive numbers considering the scale of the tournament at the time.
Of course its relevant. Di Stefano was widely regarded as GOAT half century ago because of his UCL records. If it was relevant half century ago, why it isn't relevant today, when the competition is more important than ever? Ronaldo won it 5 times, scored most and assist most, in the era when the competition is widely considered as the most prestigious and highest level of football, this is simply an undisputed best possible accomplishment in modern era.

Also, If you are better player than Pele and Messi, but you are from Welsh, what can you do? You can't choose your nation, but you can choose your club, and this is the kind of career/accomplishment every top players in the world would be dreaming and fighting for. If your favourite player has achieved this feat, you would be singing your praise all day too. So, don't let your own agenda getting ahead abit too far.

8. Finally, the list of players. This has to include players that have reached major success in NT, clubs, and have reached legend status in the WC (that has been the most important football competition for almost 100 years and counting). The hall of fame here is short:

-Pelé

-Beckenbauer

-Maradona

-Cruyff (debatable)



The ones who come next would need at least 2 of the previously mentioned conditions, hopefully WC legend status being one of them:

-Di Stefano

-Ronaldo

-Müller

-Zidane

-Garrincha

-Puskas

-Eusebio

-Meazza

-Matthaus

-Romario

-C. Ronaldo

-Messi (debatable)



I hope this helps.
In terms of WC, yes, there were better legends than Ronaldo and Messi. But, if you think its not fair to compare UCL as not everyone has similar chances, why is it fair to compare WC only when there are players who are playing for far stronger nations, while there are also players playing for far weaker nations with far less chance of winning or progressing?

If Pele, Beckenbauer or Cruyff were playing for Portugal or Argentina in 2010s, do you really think they will remembered as WC greatest ever?

But if you are being fair, willing to see step ahead from your very limited eyesight on the WC, which is essentially only a few games for each players in every 4 years with strong nations dominate, then perhaps you will be willing see the whole picture, and start comparing everything from their whole career, then of course Ronaldo and Messi should both be regarded as top 2 or 3 greatest ever.
 
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Daysleeper

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Of course its relevant, We are comparing GOAT, not greatest team of all time, individually you don't get anything better than Ballon D'ors. Ronaldo has won 5 of them, and finish runners up 6 times. Only Messi is comparable.
You may argue its not fair to the past greats who weren't eligible as many of them aren't Europeans, but in fact Ballon has published a revaluation of their awards before 1995 to include players of all nations. Pele would have won it 7 times, Maradona would have won it twice, Garricha, Kempes and Romario would have won it once, But even so, Ronaldo would still be among top 3 greatest ever.



In the top level, it is. Sure of you include those WWII period where majority of young men are at war (ie Bican), or those from low level regional league (Helmchen), there are a few from 30s-50s who were better. But those are irrelevant records as their level of football are much lower (counting goals against pub players in low level football). In other words, in modern era of professional football at top level, Ronaldo is officially all time best.



Ronaldo won CL 5 times as best player of competition. Gento won it 6 times, but did he win it all as best player too? I don't think so. Best player from Real Madrid team at that time were Di Stefano and Puskos, Gento was a great player, but he wasn't 6 times best player when Real Madrid won it 6 times.



It doesn't matter. Ronaldo historically won it as captain of the team, and Portugal's most impactful player throughout the tournament (3 goals 3 assists). That's all it matter. Eusebio was a great player, but he didn't win a single trophy for Portugal.



This alone isn't a good measure, but It surely does indicate how successful he is throughout his respectful career.
Oh and Glasgow Rangers didn't manage to win 1 CL in their trophy cabinet, let alone 5. Sure they won all their domestic titles and cups, but Scottish league wasn't even top 5 league in Europe. Ronaldo won it all in top 1-3 league throughout his career, which is impressive.



If we discount friendliness he was still the all time best. But sure you can argue if only counts goals scored in major tournament, he wasn't the best ever. But then, lets be fair, Portugal wasn't as strong as Brazil, Argentina, Germany during their prime too. You just don't expect a team like Portugal would have a goalscorer to outscored teams like Brazil, Argentina, Germany during their prime years in all major tournaments. It isn't realistic at all.



Of course its relevant. Di Stefano was widely regarded as GOAT half century ago because of his UCL records. If it was relevant half century ago, why it isn't relevant today, when the competition is more important than ever? Ronaldo won it 5 times, scored most and assist most, in the era when the competition is widely considered as the most prestigious and highest level of football, this is simply an undisputed best accomplishment every players today would be dreaming of. If other players like Messi or your favourite player has achieved this feat, you would be singing your praise all day. So, don't let your own agenda getting ahead abit too far.



In terms of WC, yes, there were better legends than Ronaldo and Messi. But, if you think its not fair to compare UCL as not everyone has similar chances, why is it fair to compare WC only when there are players who are playing for far stronger nations, while there are also players playing for far weaker nations with far less chance of winning or progressing?

If Pele, Beckenbauer or Cruyff were playing for Portugal or Argentina in 2010s, do you really think they will remembered as WC greatest ever?

But if you are being fair, willing to see the whole picture, and compare everything from their whole career, then Ronaldo and Messi should both be regarded as top 2 or 3.
wonderful post my friend:D
 

RedRonaldo

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Not definitive, as Pele and Maradona were not eligible for this award and DiStefano played at a time when you were not allowed to win it 2 years in a row.



Pele has 1279 goals, it’s in the Guinness Book of Records. Let’s stop pretending that goals he scored during a punishing touring schedule all over the world don’t count. This article explains his circumstances very well for those who don’t understand the contextual differences:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....n-story-of-pele-and-the-santos-touring-circus



DiStefano scored in every final and was a player who played all over the pitch, unlike CR who increasingly confined himself to the penalty area. Also, 5 CL/EC wins is not a record as Gento has 6.



A great achievement by Portugal but also achieved by countries like Czechoslovakia, Denmark and Greece. Ronaldo was not the best player in that tournament: he scored 3 goals (the record is 9 in 5 games by Platini) and was injured in the final after 20 minutes: his team then proceeded to win the trophy without him.



Playing for superclubs in the post- Bosman era; squads compiled of the best players from around the world and costing hundreds and hundreds of millions. Nevertheless, many players have won lots of trophies even in earlier eras when you usually had to play with 10 people from your own country. When CR plays with 10 people from his own country, he’s considerably less superhuman.



In 173 games. Kudos for longevity, but that’s way more games than virtually everyone else and a lot of those games were against cannon fodder in qualifying. 9 games v Luxembourg is one of many examples. His goal to game ratio is worse than many of the other prolific international goalscorers



Again due to the fact that he’s played by far the most games. Which is a credit to his durability, but he’s not the most prolific if you look at ratios.



All time, or just in the champions league era? Not sure the figures are available for the entirety of the competition. Probably true though because people like Muller, Puskas and DiStefano played about a third of the games (at most) because they didn’t have a group stage and you actually had to be the champions of your country (or of the previous year’s CL) to enter. If CR was operating under those rules, he’d only have 2 CLs, not 5



I’d argue that Pele, Maradona, Messi and DiStefano are all definitely better players. What do you mean by ‘stats and fact check?’ I’m assuming that you probably mean ‘goals’, in which case there’s quite a few more prolific goalscorers by ratio (Puskas, Romario, Muller, Pele, Messi etc)



I’ve just named a few for you, when you put the stats and trophies in context. But the problem is, it’s not just about stats. I’ve seen someone like Diego Maradona play, and the idea that CR might be a better footballer than him is frankly ludicrous to me. CR is an all time great player, but Diego was a genius.
See above.
 

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Take world cups away, of which Pele was blessed with the best team in the world more often than not, and why wouldn’t CR7 be top 3?

I love R9, his peak was insane but doesn’t come close to CR7 for longevity, consistency or club trophies.

I’ve said before, people place so much importance on World Cup performances in this debate, sure it plays a part, but it’s not the defining factor imo. It’s a cup competition after all, susceptible to all the mitigating factors cup comps are.
Example; Is it fair to judge Best negatively because he didn’t win a World Cup? It’s impossible to win it if you don’t have a competitive team.

Maradona deserves extra points for dragging his team to World Cup victory but club level doesn’t compare well to CR7.
Pele dominated every competition he played in to an extent Cristiano and Messi never achieved. And the Brazilian league was the best in the world back then. Just because Europe nowadays is the gold standard doesn't mean that was always the case. And the friendlies Pele played were usually very prestigious matches, many of them against the best European teams there were. Imagine somewhere around 2030,the French or German league claim the top spot and the EPL and La Liga, for whatever reasons, nosedive in quality. Then in 2050, people would discredit Cristiano and Messi because they only played in England and Spain. Would that be a fair assessment?

I don't care about trophies but Pele is so underrated these days. Truly a pioneer of the game.

And as for Cristiano's longevity: between 2008 and 2014 he might have been a top 5 player in history. Afterwards he wouldn't even scratch top 10 for me. Cristiano maintained a world class level over an insane period of time but his quality dropped a level or two relatively early, precisely in his late 20s already. So I don't believe that the longevity argumemt is really on point in the context of this thread.
 

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Pele played 19 years at Santos, he won only two Copas Libertadores 1962/1963. TWO. 2/19. He was great but.... Imagine CR or Messi with only two Champions. And i believe that It 's more difficult to win a Champions League today than a Libertadores ever.
 

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Saying he's one footed is a little ridiculous as people underrate his weak foot, he's also much better outside the box than pele was. I'd argue messi was far closer to the perfect footballer than pele or ronaldo. You really underrate Messi to the point its kind of absurd. Messi is the highest goal scorer in argentina NT history, has been to multiple finals. To act like he's this massive failure outside of Barca is just moronic. If Messi doesn't play for Argentina, they don't qualify for the world cup, pele doesn't play for Brazil, they still win the world cup. HUGE difference.

Messi also was better outside the box than pele was, messi is amazing from distance and his weak foot is very underrated:

https://www.sportbible.com/football...oals-outside-of-the-box-since-200708-20190929

Pele had headers, but I'll take Messi's playmaking over Pele's headers. And far far better competition in Messi's era (none of this multiple 10-1 matches that happened a fair bit with Santos, who never had a Real Madrid type rivalry). Pele was blessed to be brazilian, had he been Argentinian he'd have zero world cups. Hell of a talent, no question, one of the all time greats, but it's bollocks saying he's any more of a complete footballer Messi when Messi just might have the greatest combination of scoring and playmaking than anyone in history. Messi was also competing against far better athletes than Pele. Pele was able to play in some form till he was 51, in today's era that would never ever happen.


Pele also never had that defining iconic performance that people still talk about years later like Maradonna or Messi had. Hell, Pele's best scoring outputs came against absolute rubbish:


Santos 11-0 Botafogo Ribeirão Preto8
Santos 11-1 Maringá5
Santos 10-3 Nitro-Química5
Santos 10-0 Nacional5
Santos 10-1 Royal Neerschot5
Santos 10-2 Guarani5
Santos 10-1 Juventus5


World cup Achievements?

Pelé needs a reality check regarding his FIFA World Cup achievements.


Most World Cup All-Star appearancesDjalma Santos and Franz Beckenbauer, 3
Most World Cup goalsRonaldo, 15
Most World Cup goals in one finalGeoff Hurst, 3
Most World Cup goals in one tournamentJust Fontaine, 13
Most World Cup goals in one gameOleg Salenko, 5
Most World Cup gamesLothar Matthäus, 25
Most World Cup games wonCafu, 16
Most World Cup tournamentsAntonio Carbajal and Lothar Matthäus, 5


No Pele

He was never even the best world cup performer at any point:


YearGolden Boot Winner, goalsPelé's goals
1958Just Fontaine, 136
1962Six players tied, 41
1966Eusébio, 91
1970Gerd Müller, 104


Pele played on teams that were FAR ahead of what Messi played on. Hell, even when Pele didn't play, his teams still dominated. So please, prefer Pele all you want, but there's a reason why just 20 years later players like Maradona were able to outhsine him in the GOAT debate even though his goals weren't nearly as much. He played with an advantage that no other masive footballer since would have been able to enjoy. The playoff field has leveled off a lot since with more good/balanced teams compared to Pele's era.
With respect, there is so much wrong with this post that I don’t even know where to begin. It is clear that you’ve been very misinformed about Pele. If you’re so inclined, I’d advise watching as many full matches as you can, starting with the available World Cup games
 

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Pele played 19 years at Santos, he won only two Copas Libertadores 1962/1963. TWO. 2/19. He was great but.... Imagine CR or Messi with only two Champions. And i believe that It 's more difficult to win a Champions League today than a Libertadores ever.
He only played in 3 Copa Libertadores and won 2 of them. And it’s not more difficult to win a modern CL at all. This is what I’m talking about, you guys need to research more, and I say that with respect because I know that there are areas that you will be more informed on than I am.
 

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I don't think the world cup is the pinnacle of football it once was/the best measure of quality any more.

Given how global the game is now, the best players now play for the best clubs in the best competitions. This is why the Champions League should be the best measure, and few if any players have better records there than either Ronaldo of Messi.

Add to this their insane goal scoring, genius impact on the two biggest clubs on the planet and capacity to reinvent their game throughout their careers. You're talking about the two best players ever to grace the game, any other suggestion is ultimately based on nostalgia. I don't think anyone else comes close.
 

amolbhatia50k

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What's the actual point of comparing someone from the 1950s/1960s with todays players whose career you closely watch? What do we get out of belittling or downplaying either? There's only so much/little we genuinely know about someone like Pele and it's impossible to sit here today and compare footballers across 50-60 years yet people do it with such passion. I think there's mostly two kids of people - those that dismiss the new and romanticise about the past, and those that desparately want to believe their time is the greatest. The ones who can actually provide a strong and unbiased opinion on both badly exist and I wouldn't even trust them on the topic. Even worse are those who draw up rigid metrics and pretend that gives them some sort of expertise in judging everyone and making up lists.
 

NasirTimothy

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I don't think the world cup is the pinnacle of football it once was/the best measure of quality any more.
Debatable. Maybe the quality is not on the level of the CL, that discussion can be had. But it’s still the biggest prize in the sport by far.


Given how global the game is now, the best players now play for the best clubs in the best competitions. This is why the Champions League should be the best measure, and few if any players have better records there than either Ronaldo of Messi
.

I don’t think it’s the best measure necessarily. There is much more pressure in the World Cup. The weight of a nation is upon you. The WC final is the most watched sporting event in the world. Bigger than the Super Bowl, bigger than the Olympics, bigger than everything. Anyone who saw Messi looking stressed during the national anthems prior to the Croatia game in 2018 will know what I’m talking about. When have you ever seen him look like that before a Barca game? Success with Argentina means so much more to him, as it should. I hope we see him get there in the next couple of tournaments.


Add to this their insane goal scoring, genius impact on the two biggest clubs on the planet and capacity to reinvent their game throughout their careers. You're talking about the two best players ever to grace the game, any other suggestion is ultimately based on nostalgia. I don't think anyone else comes close.
Just not true. If they’re both so much better than all the other legends of this game, then why can’t either of them manage to score a goal in the KO rounds of the World Cup? Why are their overall scoring records in the WC and other international tournaments so poor (relatively speaking)?

What you’ve said here is something that we all want to believe is true (we all want the think that we are witnessing the unequivocally ‘best ever’), but is in fact not true all. They may be on a level with past greats, but there’s no way they’re way above them, if you actually look at what previous GOATS achieved in tougher circumstances.
 

Gio

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Pele played 19 years at Santos, he won only two Copas Libertadores 1962/1963. TWO. 2/19. He was great but.... Imagine CR or Messi with only two Champions. And i believe that It 's more difficult to win a Champions League today than a Libertadores ever.
Santos stopped playing in the Copa Libertadores shortly after winning their second title because it was more financially lucrative to go on money-spinning tours to Europe. At the time there wasn’t much dosh in the Libertadores.

As for whether it was harder to win compared to a CL today, who knows? It was almost certainly harder to win than the European Cup at the time given the ease with which Pele’s Santos, as well as the likes of Penarol, dispatched the best European opposition.
 

Hashira

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Playing for superclubs in the post- Bosman era; squads compiled of the best players from around the world and costing hundreds and hundreds of millions. Nevertheless, many players have won lots of trophies even in earlier eras when you usually had to play with 10 people from your own country. When CR plays with 10 people from his own country, he’s considerably less superhuman.







I’d argue that Pele, Maradona, Messi and DiStefano are all definitely better players. What do you mean by ‘stats and fact check?’ I’m assuming that you probably mean ‘goals’, in which case there’s quite a few more prolific goalscorers by ratio (Puskas, Romario, Muller, Pele, Messi etc)
And yet you rate Di Stefano higher than Ronaldo? I swear you can't make this up.

Spain under the dictatorship of Francisco Franco, sought to impose his idea of a homogenous Spanish state on the people. In the fall out of the Spanish civil war, all signs of regional nationalism, including language, flag and other signs of separatism were banned throughout Spain. Regions such as the Catalonia and the Basque country were oppressed by Franco's Madrid-domiciled forces. As a bastion of Catalan culture, Barcelona represented the opposite of what Franco wished to achieve. The Catalan flag was banned and clubs were prohibited from using non-Spanish names. This forced Barcelona to change its name from Futbol Club Barcelona to Club de Fútbol Barcelona, and to remove the Catalan flag from its crest.

Being the capital club, Real Madrid obviously benefitted from preferential treatment from the Spanish government. Given Franco's ideology, if there was to be a dominant force in Spanish football, you can be sure as hell Franco would want it to be Castilian royal rather than Catalan separatist. During the 1950s, under the direction of Santiago Bernabeu, who himself has close ties to Franco, Real were essentially bankrolled by the Spanish government while embarking on a strategy of signing world class players from abroad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galácticos#Origins
Although the term was popularized in the 2000s, the origins of the Galáctico policy date as far back as the 1950s and 1960s, when the policy was first founded by club-president Santiago Bernabéu. Bernabéu signed multiple star players for large fees in quick succession, such as Alfredo Di Stéfano, Ferenc Puskás, Raymond Kopa, José Santamaría and Francisco Gento. This period of buying allowed Real Madrid to enjoy their finest era of dominance, winning 12 La Liga championships and six European Cups.
You have the cheek to say that Ronaldo benefitted from playing at a 'super club', when before the era of European oligarchs, Middle Eastern state-funded oil money, and Chinese tycoons, Di Stefano enjoyed playing with a star-studded side stacked with talents who were personally handpicked by a man with an obsession for assembling a super team? During the years when Di Stefano was in his prime, Real benefitted from an uneven playing field with a luxury of riches that was unprecedented. Playing field are a lot more even and far less lopsided in the modern era. Real no longer monopolise the biggest talents in world football, due to the likes of PSG, City, Barca, United, Chelsea, and etc. who could rival them in terms of financial muscle with regards to transfer fees and wages.

When Di Stefano won the Ballon d'Or in 1959, out of top 10 players, 4 of them were for playing at Real!

1 Alfredo Di Stéfano Real Madrid Spain 80
2 Raymond Kopa Real Madrid/Reims France 42
3 John Charles Juventus Wales 24
4 Luis Suárez Barcelona Spain 22
5 Agne Simonsson Örgryte IS Sweden 20
6 Lajos Tichy Budapest Honvéd Hungary 18
7 Ferenc Puskás Real Madrid Hungary 16
8 Francisco Gento Real Madrid Spain 12
9 Helmut Rahn 1. FC Köln West Germany 11
10 Horst Szymaniak Karlsruher SC West Germany 8

*Kopa had just returned to Reims in the summer of 1959, however he was nominated for his performances for Real in the 1958-59 season.

The Real Madrid team that Di Stefano played in was literally the very definition of a superb club. The likes of Bale, Benzema, Marcelo, Ramos, Modric, Kroos, Alonso were/are great players who were world class in their primes. However, none of them were as highly rated as the likes of Kopa, Puskas and Gento were all regarded as some of the all-time greats. Kopa won the Ballon d'Or in 1958; finished runner-up in 1959, and third in 1956 and 1957. He is frequently cited as the third best French footballer of all-time after Platini and Zidane. And because I know you love to bring up the World Cup, Kopa was voted in the 1958 World Cup team of the tournament. Puskas scored over 800 official senior goals in his career, and is one of the best and most prolific forwards of all time. He was Ballon d'Or runner-up in 1960, and also won the Golden Ball for best performer in the 1954 World Cup. Gento had an amazingly successful career that span nearly two decades with tons of trophies at the highest level - 12 La Liga titles and 6 European Cups - whilst being an integral key member in most of them.

When Kopa returned to Reims in 1959, guess who Real bought as his replacement? Didi. The same freaking Didi who won the 1958 World Cup Golden Ball ahead of the likes of Pele, Garrincha and record-holder of most goals in a single World Cup tournament; Fontaine with 13 :lol: Let's not forget the likes of Hector Rial and Santamaria too.
 
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Daysleeper

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Debatable. Maybe the quality is not on the level of the CL, that discussion can be had. But it’s still the biggest prize in the sport by far.


.

I don’t think it’s the best measure necessarily. There is much more pressure in the World Cup. The weight of a nation is upon you. The WC final is the most watched sporting event in the world. Bigger than the Super Bowl, bigger than the Olympics, bigger than everything. Anyone who saw Messi looking stressed during the national anthems prior to the Croatia game in 2018 will know what I’m talking about. When have you ever seen him look like that before a Barca game? Success with Argentina means so much more to him, as it should. I hope we see him get there in the next couple of tournaments.




Just not true. If they’re both so much better than all the other legends of this game, then why can’t either of them manage to score a goal in the KO rounds of the World Cup? Why are their overall scoring records in the WC and other international tournaments so poor (relatively speaking)?

What you’ve said here is something that we all want to believe is true (we all want the think that we are witnessing the unequivocally ‘best ever’), but is in fact not true all. They may be on a level with past greats, but there’s no way they’re way above them, if you actually look at what previous GOATS achieved in tougher circumstances.
Pele played on teams that were far ahead of their peers, especially with Brazil on the NT stage. This was a guy who would be benched and his team still winning world cups. Now yes, I haven’t seen as many pele matches as Messi or Ronaldo matches for sure, but pele was playing on the equivalent of the dream team compared to the other NT of the time. And at no point was he the best player of those world cups. And I’d argue the pressure of the world cups only grew more in stature after pele hence why maradona pipes him on GOAT lists despite pele having more world cups
 

Spoony

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Santos stopped playing in the Copa Libertadores shortly after winning their second title because it was more financially lucrative to go on money-spinning tours to Europe. At the time there wasn’t much dosh in the Libertadores.

As for whether it was harder to win compared to a CL today, who knows? It was almost certainly harder to win than the European Cup at the time given the ease with which Pele’s Santos, as well as the likes of Penarol, dispatched the best European opposition.

Had a look at their record in Europe and yeah it's impressive. Must have been a great side.
 

Chesterlestreet

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It was almost certainly harder to win than the European Cup at the time given the ease with which Pele’s Santos, as well as the likes of Penarol, dispatched the best European opposition.
Well, Santos struggled a bit with Milan in '63 - to be fair. Then again they absolutely spanked Eusebio's Benfica the previous year * - with a particularly impressive display away from home (where Pelé scored a hat-trick).

Anyway, I think the point is this: the idea that Pelé played for some sort of Mickey Mouse club side in some sort of Mickey Mouse domestic setting - is utterly ridiculous.

It's an insult, in fact, to South American club football in the 1960s. SA won more Intercontinental Cups across that decade than Europe did. And back then those matches were big - they involved massive travel costs and huge prestige. It wasn't the relatively meaningless circus act it turned into later on.

* Benfica were pretty much spanked by Penarol the previous year too (lost 0-5 in Montevideo after a narrow win in Lisbon) - but they didn't use goal difference back then, so a third play-off match was needed (which Penarol won).