Cristiano Ronaldo should go down as top 5-6 players of all time

[Bogdannn]

You seems to move around the goalposts only when it suited you.
First its the world cup.
Then it's instrumental
Then it's single handedly carrying the team.

I didn't change any goal post. It's quite obvious for anyone with an above average IQ that when people bring up the World Cup, that they mean that one has to put in a good performance and be instrumental for your team winning it, not just to have it on your resume.

Do us a favor. Check the brazilian team ronaldo 9 played in. And tell me he single Handedly drag them to the title.

No, he didn't singlehandedly drag them to the title, but he was Brazil's best player, just like in 98 and he came through for them in crucial moments, scoring the goal that took them to the final against Turkey and scoring twice in the final. Sure, he has some good players with him, but so did Messi in 2014.
Ronaldo only had 1 world class player in the attack to help him, and that was Rivaldo. Ronaldinho was also there, but he was just a kid and had not peaked yet. In the defense, he had R.Carlos, Cafu and Lucio.
In Messi's case, his Rivaldo was Angel Di Maria, who played great in 2014. But he also had Higuain, Lavezzi and Aguero. And in the defense he had Demichelis, Zabaleta and a brilliant Mascherano.

So many of your arguments are just hypotheticals with no factual reasoning behind them (modern players can't cope with 80's conditions/players, past greats would do better than current greats if they played today etc). I get that it's your opinion and that's fine, but you present them as they are facts and never say why you believe it to be true, which just makes it pointless. I could refute these claims with a 'nope' and my "argument" would be just as sound as yours......

You are right, some might seem hypothetical, but there's a reason I believe so strongly in them. Let me explain more in detail.
When I was a teenager, I used to have the same beliefs as many on this forum, that old players would be a joke in modern times. That all changed one day, when I had an argument about it with a friend of my father's. He said that if we replicated the conditions the old timers played in, I wouldn't be that good. I laughed and said I would. We bet on it. So one Saturday after noon he took me to play on a crappy field in the country side. The pitch was very uneven and the ball was jumping all over the place when it hit a bump, which made dribbling and ball control very difficult. We also played with a heavy leather ball. My feet hurt every time I tried to hit it hard or shoot. But the ball and the field weren't the hardest part. The hardest part was playing against a bunch of hillbillies who, despite the fact that they lacked great technique, were fouling me constantly. I remember jumping in the air once to try to head the ball and one of them lodging his elbow in my ribs that made me agonize in pain. Granted, I received a foul, but the pain stuck with me the whole match. Funny thing is I only managed to score a single goal that day (from the spot), despite the fact that I was miles better than them technique wise. From that day on, I gained a new appreciation for the past greats.

 

[VanKenny]

1-Messi
2-Pele
3-Maradona/CR7

Simple as that. CR7 only ties Maradona because his tremendous and incredible longetivity. On peak performance, if i had to pick any of those 4 for my team and pick another one for my opponents team, it would be an extremely easy choice IMO.

I would pick Messi for my team, and pick CR7 for my opponents team. I sure as hell wouldnt want 86' Maradona running towards my defenders, and to a lesser degree, peak Pele.


If instead of a single match, it was a period of 10 seaons that included my rivals team and another 18 teams, then i would pick Messi for my team, and i would pick Maradona for my opponents team. Also another easy decision.



Take that as you will.

 

[Bogdannn]

1-Messi
2-Pele
3-Maradona/CR7

Simple as that. CR7 only ties Maradona because his tremendous and incredible longetivity. On peak performance, if i had to pick any of those 4 for my team and pick another one for my opponents team, it would be an extremely easy choice IMO.

I would pick Messi for my team, and pick CR7 for my opponents team. I sure as hell wouldnt want 86' Maradona running towards my defenders, and to a lesser degree, peak Pele.


If instead of a single match, it was a period of 10 seaons that included my rivals team and another 18 teams, then i would pick Messi for my team, and i would pick Maradona for my opponents team. Also another easy decision.



Take that as you will.

Your team will have a lot of trouble cause Messi has a very hard time adapting to a different playing style than that of Barcelona

 

[Sky1981]

I didn't change any goal post. It's quite obvious for anyone with an above average IQ that when people bring up the World Cup, that they mean that one has to put in a good performance and be instrumental for your team winning it, not just to have it on your resume.


No, he didn't singlehandedly drag them to the title, but he was Brazil's best player, just like in 98 and he came through for them in crucial moments, scoring the goal that took them to the final against Turkey and scoring twice in the final. Sure, he has some good players with him, but so did Messi in 2014.
Ronaldo only had 1 world class player in the attack to help him, and that was Rivaldo. Ronaldinho was also there, but he was just a kid and had not peaked yet. In the defense, he had R.Carlos, Cafu and Lucio.
In Messi's case, his Rivaldo was Angel Di Maria, who played great in 2014. But he also had Higuain, Lavezzi and Aguero. And in the defense he had Demichelis, Zabaleta and a brilliant Mascherano.


You are right, some might seem hypothetical, but there's a reason I believe so strongly in them. Let me explain more in detail.
When I was a teenager, I used to have the same beliefs as many on this forum, that old players would be a joke in modern times. That all changed one day, when I had an argument about it with a friend of my father's. He said that if we replicated the conditions the old timers played in, I wouldn't be that good. I laughed and said I would. We bet on it. So one Saturday after noon he took me to play on a crappy field in the country side. The pitch was very uneven and the ball was jumping all over the place when it hit a bump, which made dribbling and ball control very difficult. We also played with a heavy leather ball. My feet hurt every time I tried to hit it hard or shoot. But the ball and the field weren't the hardest part. The hardest part was playing against a bunch of hillbillies who, despite the fact that they lacked great technique, were fouling me constantly. I remember jumping in the air once to try to head the ball and one of them lodging his elbow in my ribs that made me agonize in pain. Granted, I received a foul, but the pain stuck with me the whole match. Funny thing is I only managed to score a single goal that day (from the spot), despite the fact that I was miles better than them technique wise. From that day on, I gained a new appreciation for the past greats.

Above average iq? Is this the level you resort to?

Nice fan fiction by the way. You're talking again out of your arse. The grass is better in 2021 but that doesnt mean early players are playing in rocks, it's international standard dude. You're saying our grandfather can't grow good enough grass for a game of football? And even if it's harder, the defender are equally playing on a level field.

And fecking r9 isnt a dinosaur, he's already playing in the 2000s with good grass.

Like i said. You constantly move the goalpost. Now it's the grass. R9 who had a better team than messi, but when it suited you it's always r9 dragging the team

You're just a fanboy who cant appreciate how hard it is to constantly performing for 20 bloody years in top level, scoring 700 goals, winning 5 CL, and 5 ballon dor, because hey... ronaldo scores in world cup.

But hey. Up to you. Like i said it's a free world. If you prefer r9 then it's your call. But dont preach here as if it's some kind of gospel.

 

[Swoobs]

He was at United during that time. You probably mean 2009-2012? He was better for us in 07/08 than 08/09. Rooney was every bit as good as him in 08/09. Probably better actually.

Ah sorry my bad, had a late night. But yes CR7’s last 2 seasons at United and first 2 seasons at Real was a football beast. That version of CR7 should be the main rival go messi imo, not his later versions

 

[Schneckerl]

Yeah, even if you hate him, it's tough to rate him outside of that range. The top 6 players are Pelé, Messi, Maradona, Cristiano, Cruyff, Di Stéfano, with the order being variable.

 

[giorno]

Ah sorry my bad, had a late night. But yes CR7’s last 2 seasons at United and first 2 seasons at Real was a football beast. That version of CR7 should be the main rival go messi imo, not his later versions

No, no it should not. In 08/09 he wasn't that special, and until 10/11 he just couldn't compare to Messi's sheer output on top of everything else. Peak Cristiano was 10/15.

But i digress. If we're comparing peaks, then there is no comparison to be made

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Ah sorry my bad, had a late night. But yes CR7’s last 2 seasons at United and first 2 seasons at Real was a football beast. That version of CR7 should be the main rival go messi imo, not his later versions

His last season at United wasn't even special. He had 27 goals if I recall correctly and United won the league and league cup. That isn't even comparable to the seasons Lewandowski and Mbappé have had recently.

 

[VBI]

You might check that again. Passarella didn't play a minute in WC 1986 and withdraw from the tournament as he had a massive row with Maradona because an armband went to Diego and not him. Bochini played just few minutes against Belgium (he couldn't play more as Diego played in his position) and Argentina went into the tournament divided into Passarella and Maradona group. Valdano for example was initially on Passarella side.

Have seen a lot of cases of trying to twist actual events and this one goes very high on that list.

That tournament was all Diego. No one in history ever played on that level.

Fair enough on the Passarella omission, but the rest stands. It's not a poor squad, at all. The very fact they won the tournament proves that. People having issues in the camp was not uncommon even to this day, but it's still a great squad of players. I don't see how this is "twisting" anything, the point is it's twisting facts to pretend Maradona carried a bunch of poor players, when he was in fact leading a squad of trophy winners and seasoned internationals. It doesn't take away from his legacy, but people need to stop pretending single players can "carry" anyone.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Fair enough on the Passarella omission, but the rest stands. It's not a poor squad, at all. The very fact they won the tournament proves that. People having issues in the camp was not uncommon even to this day, but it's still a great squad of players. I don't see how this is "twisting" anything, the point is it's twisting facts to pretend Maradona carried a bunch of poor players, when he was in fact leading a squad of trophy winners and seasoned internationals. It doesn't take away from his legacy, but people need to stop pretending single players can "carry" anyone.

I think it’s fair to point out that it wasn’t a ‘poor’ team as such, but there were no superstars or ‘hall of fame’ players apart from Maradona. This is an unusual thing for a World Cup winning team.

I think Maradona’s 86 World Cup is also the best individual performance of all time, (followed by Garrincha in 62 perhaps).

By the way, I think @Jim Beam has been reading Maradona’s autobiography with all those little tidbits he’s coming out with. .....

 

[Jim Beam]

By the way, I think @Jim Beam has been reading Maradona’s autobiography with all those little tidbits he’s coming out with. .....

actually I found out about Passarella - Maradona beef a year ago on this forum, so was interested about it. After all, they were two giants of the game and both lead Argentina to WC glory as captains.

This article towards its end talks about the incident...

https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/...niel-passarella-argentinas-greatest-defender/

 

[RedRonaldo]

No, no it should not. In 08/09 he wasn't that special, and until 10/11 he just couldn't compare to Messi's sheer output on top of everything else. Peak Cristiano was 10/15.

But i digress. If we're comparing peaks, then there is no comparison to be made

Stat wise his peak was during 14/15, when he has scored 61 goals and made 21 assists in 54 games. I don't think I have ever seen anyone produce better than that in a season, maybe except Messi in his peak (73 goals and 29 assists in 60 games during 11/12).
Performance wise I think his peak was during 07-13, when he was at his physical peak, always driving his team forward, with pace, skills, trickery, athleticism and goals of course. He just likes keep running with the ball, doing all sorts of damage to opponents defenders, and was very entertaining to watch. He start to cut down abit of his dribbling after 10-11 though, but he was still a physical beast and was all over the pitch from 11-13. Performance wise his last really great season was in 13/14. I thought after 14/15, he becomes more of a poacher and focus more on goals, instead of running alot with the ball himself.

At 18-22 years of age: Very talented and skilful player, electrifying performance, but lack of end products
At 23-27 : At his physical and performance peak, start to score insane number of goals too
At 27-30: Becomes most efficient and reached his goalscoring peak
At 30-36: Performance level dropped, becomes more of a poacher, but still maintain similar goalscoring stats.

 

[VeevaVee]

His last season at United wasn't even special. He had 27 goals if I recall correctly and United won the league and league cup. That isn't even comparable to the seasons Lewandowski and Mbappé have had recently.

But Mbappe is in the French league and Lewandowski is a striker?

 

[Luke1995]

When was Cristiano Ronaldo's absolute peak, 2007-08 or 2011-12 ? These are generally considered his best in-form seasons

 

[VanKenny]

Your team will have a lot of trouble cause Messi has a very hard time adapting to a different playing style than that of Barcelona

I disagree. Messi has won Balon D'or on seasons where he played as right winger, as a false 9, as an striker and as a CAM/RAM, all of those with different set of teammates, midfields, defenders, forwards and coaches.

All those times, the only common denominator was Messi. Him dribbling past an entire Madrid's team, against Bayern's defense, mocking Arsenal, City etc, all those 10/10 performances came from Messi's boots, not a system.

Its fairly obvious that of the 4 players mentioned, the 1 that is less dependable of a system is Messi. Maradona, Pele and especially CR7 all had very set roles on every team they played. Messi is the only one that can impact a game playing as a pure striker just as easily as he can while playing as an all around roaming midfielder, coming all the way down to his defense to collect the ball.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Go on YouTube for an hour and it will make sense. At the very least, he has to be the best centre forward ever. Phenomenal player.

Van Basten has to be considered for that too

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Go on YouTube for an hour and it will make sense. At the very least, he has to be the best centre forward ever. Phenomenal player.

Go on YouTube for an hour and it will make sense. At the very least, he has to be the best centre forward ever. Phenomenal player.

Zlatan Ibrahimovic says hello.

 

[Rozay]

Zlatan Ibrahimovic says hello.

Just checked to see if it was 1 April. Even Zlatan’s mother wouldn’t dare say hello. R9 was so much better than Zlatan that this could be the most disrespectful comparison I’ve ever seen!

 

[NasirTimothy]

actually I found out about Passarella - Maradona beef a year ago on this forum, so was interested about it. After all, they were two giants of the game and both lead Argentina to WC glory as captains.

This article towards its end talks about the incident...

https://thesefootballtimes.co/2018/...niel-passarella-argentinas-greatest-defender/

Great article, like so many on that website. What’s also interesting is that Bochini was a big idol of Diego’s when he was a child. In his autobiography, he talks about how he loved Ricardo’s style of play and wanted to emulate him. So it must have been weird that he ended up essentially replacing him in the Argentine side and also that Bochini chose Passarella’s side in the battle of the captains.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

The problem with making a best player ever list is that there are far too many variables to make a definitive decision.

The top 10 for most people would most likely include any of the following 12 players, with maybe 1 or 2 others thrown in instead. Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Puskas, Muller, Eusebio, Garrincha, Platini.

But the thing is, it is only an opinion, however no one has watched enough of the top 100 players of all time to determine who the definitive best is. Most people just look at stats or read greatest footballer lists and choose without actually watching much of many of them.

When the best players are chosen the following tend to come into play; only using stat sheets, only using trophy count, never seen the player play, not seen enough of certain players, recency bias, nationality bias, club bias, league bias.

For example, if I say Messi is better than Di Stefano, I come to this conclusion by using the following;

Watched Messi play the full 90 minutes hundreds of times,
Watched all his goals on Youtube,
Watched all his assists on Youtube,
Watched compilations of his best passes, dribbles and tricks on Youtube,
Looked at his career stats,
Looked at his trophy list,
Looked at his personal honours list.

But for Di Stefano I have only done the following, with the bolded being the main issue;

Watched several Youtube videos and never even watched 1 full match.
Watched all of the available goals on Youtube,
Watched all of his available assists on Youtube,
Looked at his career stats,
Looked at his trophy list,
Looked at his personal honours list.

After all of this, we also need to remember the following;

Pitches are much better now,
Footballs, boots and other on field equipment are much better now,
Coaches and tactics are much better now,
Training facilities and training equipment are much better now,
Best food availability is much easier now,
Research on food and training are far superior now,
Supplements exist now,
Players are paid far more now meaning they can devote their lives 24/7 to football instead of having to work a full time job alongside their football career, meaning less training to become better,
Football rules are far better now and make it much easier for attackers
Attackers have much more protection now and don't get hacked to pieces like in Di Stefano's day.

All of the following needs to be considered before choosing the best players ever, and if you haven't considered all of these then it is unfair to say Messi or Ronaldo or Maradona were better players than the likes of Di Stefano.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Just checked to see if it was 1 April. Even Zlatan’s mother wouldn’t dare say hello. R9 was so much better than Zlatan that this could be the most disrespectful comparison I’ve ever seen!

Ronaldo was a much better player yes, I totally agree, but that wasn't what I quoted. However, Zlatan's Youtube goals compilation is better than probably any player ever.

 

[Rozay]

Ronaldo was a much better player yes, I totally agree, but that wasn't what I quoted. However, Zlatan's Youtube goals compilation is better than probably any player ever.

Ah okay, I get you now.

 

[giorno]

When was Cristiano Ronaldo's absolute peak, 2007-08 or 2011-12 ? These are generally considered his best in-form seasons

11/12, by far

 

[Luke1995]

11/12, by far

He scored more, obviously. But I think his freekicks were better at United. His dribbling aswell.

Maybe i'm overestimating that 07-08 season. I just remember that the PL was at it's peak and he had a massive improvement from 05-06 and 06-07.

 

[FattyFooty]

Go on YouTube for an hour and it will make sense. At the very least, he has to be the best centre forward ever. Phenomenal player.

If you go to YouTube for ten min you will learn that Moscardelli or whatever he's name is, are the best ever.

 

[Tom Cato]

One of these threads again? Football has been around for 100 years now. There are many players who should make the pantheon of the elite who some would never have heard of.

Giuseppe Meazza. Won 2 world cups. Inter Milans all time top goalscorer. Has a stadium named after him (AC/Inter stadium).

Stanley Matthews, Alfred Di Stefano, Ferenc Puskas etc. Football changes era by era and the eras arent comparable.

In another 80 years time, Messi and Ronaldo will be down the bottom of a list or forgotton by the majority of fans, as new heroes of their eras replace them.

This is a interesting thought since the reason the old heroes are forgotten now is the extreme lack of good readily available footage from that period. And the footage that is available is.. not great most part. Then again in 80 years things like full-room 3D projection programming is probably going to be a thing so the way the future generations view the game will be significantly different than today.

 

[Krakenzero]

Some people compared Argentina's 1986 team to the one in 2014. If we remove Messi from the latter we have:

-One of the PL goalscorers
-One of Serie A goalscorers
-The POTM of the last UCL final.
-A main squad player in the best team of the decade.

Bar Maradona and maybe Valdano (who was doing well in Madrid), who else in 1986 squad was at that level?

 

[Krakenzero]

For the record, I think the top 5 is Pelé, Maradona, Beckenbauer, Cruyff and Di Stefano, with the first 3 edging the last 2 due to WC acomplishments. The next level is filled with players like Garrincha, Müller, Eusebio, Zidane, Romario, Ronaldo, Cristiano and Messi and I think the same logic holds.

 

[NasirTimothy]

Some people compared Argentina's 1986 team to the one in 2014. If we remove Messi from the latter we have:

-One of the PL goalscorers
-One of Serie A goalscorers
-The POTM of the last UCL final.
-A main squad player in the best team of the decade.

Bar Maradona and maybe Valdano (who was doing well in Madrid), who else in 1986 squad was at that level?

Well you had Burruchaga who was the top
scorer in the Copa America 3 years earlier, a national champion in Argentina and a Copa Libertadores winner as well as the Foreign player of the year in his spell with Nantes. You had the aforementioned Valdano who was at Real Madrid and had just won La Liga and the UEFA Cup prior to the WC tournament. You had Óscar Ruggeri, who is one of the best defenders to ever come out of Argentina; he was a national champion with River Plate AND Boca, a Copa Libertadores champion, a La Liga winner in a brief spell with Real Madrid in the late 80s and twice a Copa America champion in the 90s.

You also have to remember that Argentine club football was stronger then, and whilst many of the team were not world superstars, they were highly respected in South America. Today, all these guys would be playing in Europe. Back then, only 5 members of the 22 man squad were at European clubs

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Stat wise his peak was during 14/15, when he has scored 61 goals and made 21 assists in 54 games. I don't think I have ever seen anyone produce better than that in a season, maybe except Messi in his peak (73 goals and 29 assists in 60 games during 11/12).
Performance wise I think his peak was during 07-13, when he was at his physical peak, always driving his team forward, with pace, skills, trickery, athleticism and goals of course. He just likes keep running with the ball, doing all sorts of damage to opponents defenders, and was very entertaining to watch. He start to cut down abit of his dribbling after 10-11 though, but he was still a physical beast and was all over the pitch from 11-13. Performance wise his last really great season was in 13/14. I thought after 14/15, he becomes more of a poacher and focus more on goals, instead of running alot with the ball himself.

At 18-22 years of age: Very talented and skilful player, electrifying performance, but lack of end products
At 23-27 : At his physical and performance peak, start to score insane number of goals too
At 27-30: Becomes most efficient and reached his goalscoring peak
At 30-36: Performance level dropped, becomes more of a poacher, but still maintain similar goalscoring stats.

Forget about peak Messi, who blows peak 2015 Ronaldo out of the water. The Messi from that very season (2015 Messi) had 58 goals and 27 assists, while leading Barcelona to the treble. And giving up several penalties to his teammates.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

When was Cristiano Ronaldo's absolute peak, 2007-08 or 2011-12 ? These are generally considered his best in-form seasons

He has plenty of seasons better than 2007-2008 imo.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Well you had Burruchaga who was the top
scorer in the Copa America 3 years earlier, a national champion in Argentina and a Copa Libertadores winner as well as the Foreign player of the year in his spell with Nantes. You had the aforementioned Valdano who was at Real Madrid and had just won La Liga and the UEFA Cup prior to the WC tournament. You had Óscar Ruggeri, who is one of the best defenders to ever come out of Argentina; he was a national champion with River Plate AND Boca, a Copa Libertadores champion, a La Liga winner in a brief spell with Real Madrid in the late 80s and twice a Copa America champion in the 90s.

You also have to remember that Argentine club football was stronger then, and whilst many of the team were not world superstars, they were highly respected in South America. Today, all these guys would be playing in Europe. Back then, only 5 members of the 22 man squad were at European clubs

See this is the problem with commenting on best players of now compared to the past. You have some good history of the past Argentina players, yet other people are commenting when they have barely much knowledge of the past players that are being compared to Ronaldo and Messi. There can't be a complete argument as most of us lack enough knowledge.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Forget about peak Messi, who blows peak 2015 Ronaldo out of the water. The Messi from that very season (2015 Messi) had 58 goals and 27 assists, while leading Barcelona to the treble. And giving up several penalties to his teammates.

Oh sure, Messi in 14-15 is equally as strong, but more successful.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

See this is the problem with commenting on best players of now compared to the past. You have some good history of the past Argentina players, yet other people are commenting when they have barely much knowledge of the past players that are being compared to Ronaldo and Messi. There can't be a complete argument as most of us lack enough knowledge.

Especially those of the older generation. I'd venture a guess that less than 20% of the forum actually watched the 1986 world cup as it unfolded, because it was 35 years ago. It makes it difficult to make these comparisons, as you said, because the context isn't there.

I suppose that's why it's refreshing when the older folks do expatiate about some of the older legends and some of these teams.

 

[Devil77]

After all of this, we also need to remember the following;

Pitches are much better now,
Footballs, boots and other on field equipment are much better now,
Coaches and tactics are much better now,
Training facilities and training equipment are much better now,
Best food availability is much easier now,
Research on food and training are far superior now,
Supplements exist now,
Players are paid far more now meaning they can devote their lives 24/7 to football instead of having to work a full time job alongside their football career, meaning less training to become better,
Football rules are far better now and make it much easier for attackers
Attackers have much more protection now and don't get hacked to pieces like in Di Stefano's day.

All of the following needs to be considered before choosing the best players ever, and if you haven't considered all of these then it is unfair to say Messi or Ronaldo or Maradona were better players than the likes of Di Stefano.

All of the above is true. But it also applies to defenders. Maybe we should judge on the difference in abilities between said players and their contemporary fellow players.

 

[Gio]

It's a really good post @The holy trinity 68. Shows how hard it is to separate out players from different generations. And if you are going to take a stab at proclaiming a player ahead of everyone else, then it has to be a very nuanced argument based on many factors that acknowledges what has come before and/or after that player.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Especially those of the older generation. I'd venture a guess that less than 20% of the forum actually watched the 1986 world cup as it unfolded, because it was 35 years ago. It makes it difficult to make these comparisons, as you said, because the context isn't there.

I suppose that's why it's refreshing when the older folks do expatiate about some of the older legends and some of these teams.

Exactly. Would be interesting to see how the likes of Messi and Ronaldo would be if they went back in time to play in the 60's, and if the likes of Cruyff got to play now while benefitting from all of the improvements from being a youth player to his peak.

All of the above is true. But it also applies to defenders. Maybe we should judge on the difference in abilities between said players and their contemporary fellow players.

Yeah totally. Romario and the likes in the CL/EC would have to contend with the defence of 88 Milan, who had Baresi, Maldini, Costacurta and Tossotti. That defence compared to the best defences Ronaldo and Messi have came up against is night and day. The early 90's defences that R9 faced in Serie A are far superior to now so switch him from 1995 with Ronaldo or Messi and they would probably be closer in stats than they are.

It's a really good post @The holy trinity 68. Shows how hard it is to separate out players from different generations. And if you are going to take a stab at proclaiming a player ahead of everyone else, then it has to be a very nuanced argument based on many factors that acknowledges what has come before and/or after that player.

Thank you good sir. Yeah it is far too difficult to make a definitive claim and act like it is fact, which is what so many people do and then get offended by a different opinion. It will never be a fact because there are far too many variables.

 

[NasirTimothy]

See this is the problem with commenting on best players of now compared to the past. You have some good history of the past Argentina players, yet other people are commenting when they have barely much knowledge of the past players that are being compared to Ronaldo and Messi. There can't be a complete argument as most of us lack enough knowledge.

You’re absolutely right, it is difficult to take account of all the variables. But I think it is incumbent upon us to learn a little bit about the past teams and players so that our opinions are at least informed to a degree. However, even an informed opinion on a player comparison is not gospel truth, just an opinion

 

[Bogdannn]

The problem with making a best player ever list is that there are far too many variables to make a definitive decision.

The top 10 for most people would most likely include any of the following 12 players, with maybe 1 or 2 others thrown in instead. Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Puskas, Muller, Eusebio, Garrincha, Platini.

But the thing is, it is only an opinion, however no one has watched enough of the top 100 players of all time to determine who the definitive best is. Most people just look at stats or read greatest footballer lists and choose without actually watching much of many of them.

When the best players are chosen the following tend to come into play; only using stat sheets, only using trophy count, never seen the player play, not seen enough of certain players, recency bias, nationality bias, club bias, league bias.

For example, if I say Messi is better than Di Stefano, I come to this conclusion by using the following;

Watched Messi play the full 90 minutes hundreds of times,
Watched all his goals on Youtube,
Watched all his assists on Youtube,
Watched compilations of his best passes, dribbles and tricks on Youtube,
Looked at his career stats,
Looked at his trophy list,
Looked at his personal honours list.

But for Di Stefano I have only done the following, with the bolded being the main issue;

Watched several Youtube videos and never even watched 1 full match.
Watched all of the available goals on Youtube,
Watched all of his available assists on Youtube,
Looked at his career stats,
Looked at his trophy list,
Looked at his personal honours list.

After all of this, we also need to remember the following;

Pitches are much better now,
Footballs, boots and other on field equipment are much better now,
Coaches and tactics are much better now,
Training facilities and training equipment are much better now,
Best food availability is much easier now,
Research on food and training are far superior now,
Supplements exist now,
Players are paid far more now meaning they can devote their lives 24/7 to football instead of having to work a full time job alongside their football career, meaning less training to become better,
Football rules are far better now and make it much easier for attackers
Attackers have much more protection now and don't get hacked to pieces like in Di Stefano's day.

All of the following needs to be considered before choosing the best players ever, and if you haven't considered all of these then it is unfair to say Messi or Ronaldo or Maradona were better players than the likes of Di Stefano.

This is a very good post that reflects reality.

 

[Luke1995]

He has plenty of seasons better than 2007-2008 imo.

That's certainly his best United season though ? Although some prefer 2006-07