I can see where people are coming from who say that because it is very stop start and a real lack of movement in the middle
Criticism is fine (and encouraged) but there are some criticisms thrown at Ole that don't make any sense
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I think the frustration is that Donny & Bruno are more AM's whereas the midfield problem is with DM & CM and no one has been signed this summer in either of those positions so there is understandably frustration about that
Where is the criticism encouraged??
Also, I may be being uncharitable to the OP here, but It reads like "Criticism is fine...as long as I agree with it"
Also, I may be being uncharitable to the OP here, but It reads like "Criticism is fine...as long as I agree with it"
We don’t want to post on a site where you can’t criticise the manager. People just don’t want idiots posting drivel constantly.
The goalposts are always changing says our friend El Jefe.
El Jefe originally thought that Ole would do worse than Mourinho and LVG.
He was also embarrassed that we had by far the worst manager of the top six when we hired him.
Worse than Emery said our friend @El Jefe originally. He of course expected him to be shown up against the other five. His expectations must not have changed.
Our good friend El Jefe thought we'd never get top four under Ole. We'd be out of the race by March! But his goal posts stayed the same.
I mean look at this post:
All El Jefe was asking is that we improve more than those around us and eventually catch Liverpool. This was posted in 2020 but his goalposts haven't changed.
What did El Jefe want?
If only we had pushed on from third last season.
Finally, let's see when @El Jefe thinks criticism should stop?
Obviously, making good signings and a good start to a season should end criticism. As El Jefe righfully pointed out when sticking up for two clearly superior managers to Ole.
If only people like me would stop moving the goalposts.
Also. This is not a 'both sides' issue. There is literally dozens of people complaining about how negativity is driving them from this forum. NO-ONE has left this forum in the last month and thought, 'Ugh, I'm going to stop posting there. They're too positive for me.'
Did you really go search El Jefes posting history?
Kudos to you.It is both side issue and both sides are obnoxius as hell.
Oops I missed big out I meant Ch Lge or Prem
This is desperate stuff
The Emery you look down upon, is the coach who got the better of Ole in the EL final with a much inferior team. Ole might be better suited to being the United manager but he's not close to being as good as a coach as any of the ones I listed.
The measure of success for a Manchester United manager is trophies. There's no moving of the goal posts from those that are unconvinced by Ole because he hasn't won any yet. As I said, if Ole wins trophies, I will admit I'm wrong and be extremely happy he's our manager. I can't say the same for you if he was to have another trophyless season this year, you've already said your expectations for the season are a title challenge and a decent cup run.
No but we're also a very different club. Ole brings something to United that none of those managers will. We have history and a proud culture that the likes of City and Chelsea don't have. They can churn through managers every 2 or 3 years (Pep obviously not but watch them return to that once he leaves) and will keep the money up that will result in success. We're more of an institution and batting around different managers who don't maintain our culture etc just doesn't work.
The Moyes to Mourinho era was generally awful. None of the 3 managers 'got' the club. We were way, way off where we are now for large parts of that time.
I want us to continue with young, exciting British talent. I feel as though we should organically develop our team and add sprinkles of world class to it. It might take a bit longer but that's who we are. When Fergie retired he said we'd need to stand by our manager. He was and still represents what the likes of Busby made the club into.
The turn around in our squad has been significant, proper projects with long term, sustained success will need time. I don't think our progression has taken a ton of time.
Klopp at Liverpool after 100 games had a 54% win rate, averaging 1.9 points per game.
Solskjaer has 53% with 1.87 points per game. Klopp's Liverpool scored 208 goals to Solskjaer's 187. It isn't world's away in terms of building a project.
Now I'm not doing this as a direct comparison and saying that Ole will follow the same path from here but one managers had had fairly overwhelming negativity. From many calls for him to be sacked to constant accusations that he's inept, a PE teacher, stealing a living, I've seen him called all kinds of names and slurs by his own fan base. The other has generally been pretty revered and other than comments about his teeth, has generally been 'accepted' by English fans and the media.
The gulf in how they are perceived compared to how they've performed just don't match.
Solskjaer 'gets' United. Now I don't expect a fair amount of long distance fans or fans of other clubs to really get what that is. That feeling around the club, the ground, the mentality. Very few clubs are what Manchester United are and I don't feel we need the most tactically astute manager out there. Fergie wasn't. He got other people on board to help with a lot of that but Ferguson understood the club and he built with that in mind. Everything I see from Solskjaer is him very much working towards the same thing.
It's difficult to articulate exactly but all I can say is I feel like I have my club back, for the first time since Ferguson left, it feels like Manchester United again and to be honest, that's worth far more to me than a trophy is. I don't give two shits about the FA Cup we won't with LVG. Not really. Sure, was good at the time, enjoyed it but ultimately, was it worth what his time here was? Again, not to me it wasn't. I've enjoyed the last 2 and a half trophyless seasons more than the 6 or so before that.
Trophies will come, I've no doubt about that.
Appreciate many won't agree and that's fair enough, different perspectives and experiences but I'm pretty comfortable. I don't spend my days obsessing about the next trophy, I generally spend it looking forward to our next game. If I'm ignorant, cool. I'd rather be ignorant than constantly miserable like half our fans seem to be.
Good points and I think you're bang on with him wanting to win etc. I imagine he got in when he took the care taker job and to a degree was like "what the fu......". I think some people forget that he's been in so many winning United sides, under the leagues greatest ever manager and will have a strong affection for it. He's probably torn his hair out at times, we were an utter shambles when he got in, probably the most toxic and depressing I've ever known. Actually, not probably, it quite comfortably was.
We are above tactically inept Tuchel, Guardiola and Klopp. First part of the season is always a bit hit and miss. 7/9 pts is a solid start.
The performances against Wolves and Southampton could obviously have been better but a couple of away games with crowds back deserves some slack.
I don’t expect perfect attacking football every week (even City last year were grinding wins out for a time) but we need to deliver some better performances after the break.
Newcastle at home should be a comfortable win with good football (also I’m going to the game so I deserve it).
The performances against Wolves and Southampton could obviously have been better but a couple of away games with crowds back deserves some slack.
I don’t expect perfect attacking football every week (even City last year were grinding wins out for a time) but we need to deliver some better performances after the break.
Newcastle at home should be a comfortable win with good football (also I’m going to the game so I deserve it).
It’s worth remembering that Brendan Rodgers was sacked to bring in Klopp. Their styles are not a million miles away from each other and as we know Rodgers is a very good coach. So Klopp did have something to build on.
Whereas Ole has had to turn around an oil tanker. We had nothing but negative football for years. A slow physical team built for Mourinho. It’s night and day. The obvious point is that should Ole not succeed and get fired we need to ensure the next man is playing at least somewhat similarly. Conte and Simeone for example should be nowhere near the job.
It's a very good post, some will just or have a preconceived idea about Ole they just dont like him. I think he can be more positive in some games, in others hes been spot on. Ie the City games. I realy do think he is to nice at times, I would love to see him giving the players official etc a bit of stick even just to get some frustration out in games. I think some players react to it.
This is one of the most self indulgent posts I’ve ever read on here. That really takes some doing.
For me, the Ole debate is pretty tiresome at this point - our team has the same flaws in it's build up as it had in 2018. We progress the ball comfortably when an opposition team gives us space to work with, we struggle to get out of our own half against an organised press.
We already had a squad that was already an order of magnitude more expensive than 90% of the league last year, now we're stacked with some of the best players in Europe. In my eyes he's already proved he can't take us any further by continuing to make the same mistakes almost three years in to his tenure, but if he doesn't challenge this year then he's unequivocally proven that he's not good enough to continue. While I hope he proves me wrong, we may as well time do the debating for us.
We already had a squad that was already an order of magnitude more expensive than 90% of the league last year, now we're stacked with some of the best players in Europe. In my eyes he's already proved he can't take us any further by continuing to make the same mistakes almost three years in to his tenure, but if he doesn't challenge this year then he's unequivocally proven that he's not good enough to continue. While I hope he proves me wrong, we may as well time do the debating for us.
It's as if people think that every great side just blows teams away with YouTube level play every week. It's bizarre. Our beloved 07/08 treble side was in 17th (!!!) after our first 3 games drawing to Reading and fecking Portsmouth with what is argued as one of the best front 3's in footballing history.
Fecking relax and have a drink. If we are playing terribly halfway through the year and in poor positions in cup/league campaigns then by all means call for Ole's head. But fact is we've withstood a lot of shite the past few years yet keep improving, and I seem to remember no one being happy with our team even after cup wins under Van Gaal or Mourinho, it was always that we were miles behind in the league and the cups were just a smokescreen for a much worse side.
Fecking relax and have a drink. If we are playing terribly halfway through the year and in poor positions in cup/league campaigns then by all means call for Ole's head. But fact is we've withstood a lot of shite the past few years yet keep improving, and I seem to remember no one being happy with our team even after cup wins under Van Gaal or Mourinho, it was always that we were miles behind in the league and the cups were just a smokescreen for a much worse side.
Good post. What absolutely baffles me is that people talk about Ole and all the good work the backroom team have done rebuilding the squad, but then even when they allow him credit for that, they complain that "we haven't won anything", as if we have some God-given right.
It is widely acknowledged that our squad was horrible when Ole took over. Everybody accepts thag. So then how the hell does it follow that two years later we're meant to be dominating some of the best and most complete sides in the History of European football?
We came 2nd last year! To a team playing on cheat mode! Honestly, you would think those of us talking about the "process" and having patience are defending 5th/6th place finishes! We're getting results AND building excellent foundations and STILL people are constantly whingeing. Honestly, why don't these people just have done with it and support City?
Yeah I honestly don't want Conte at all. I have no doubt he may well win something but it won't be all that pretty and he'll likely leave a bit of a shit storm.
Some people have really short memories, the team we had in December 18 was an absolute mess. Genuinely baffles me that there seems an expectation to have won the league since then. It's been less than 3 years!
Yeah I can't half waffle when I've had a smoke. If it helps though, I don't post much so that's a bonus for you.
It is in fact pathetic.Did you really go search El Jefes posting history?
I think you gave a decent, personal self-analysis of why you regard things the way you do.
I'd be interested to see the fruits of the same process, from some of the negative nannies here.
Villarreal and Leicester ?
Or by """dominating some of the best sides in history""" do you actually just mean competing for the league title this season? Which is exactly what Ole has to do this season, after spending close to £360m in 3 summers, if he wants to avoid being labelled a clear failure.
See I say that I’m not sure if he has the ability to make us challenge which I feel is a valid point. He obviously has shown the ability to build a squad which has been top notch.
The problem I hate with the caf is if I say that I’m unsure of his tactical ability I get called a Ole outer or if I praise him for his subs etc in a certain game I get jumped on called a Ole in fan.
Im needer I’m a United fan than feels Ole has done a great job in building a squad which is our best on paper in years and meeting expectations while doing so but I have the doubts about him winning trophies which is the expectation this season.
The problem I hate with the caf is if I say that I’m unsure of his tactical ability I get called a Ole outer or if I praise him for his subs etc in a certain game I get jumped on called a Ole in fan.
Im needer I’m a United fan than feels Ole has done a great job in building a squad which is our best on paper in years and meeting expectations while doing so but I have the doubts about him winning trophies which is the expectation this season.
So in your own words, it doesn't happen very often where a manager tells a player they have no future at the club, full stop. Doesn't happen very often, but Ole is soft for not doing it? Every other manager in world football that has dross in their team is hard as nails, but Ole is the soft one? Got it.
Why did you cut off the ' and said player decides to stay 'part? , you are trying to change what i said.
I see you are from Norway though so you probably took what i said personally i guess.
So if I tell you to feck off, and you decide not to feck off, that's on me?
Yeah but that was kind of my point. I doubt Ole did tell him he has no future at the club, and never would do.
So you're criticizing Ole because you doubt he did what you believe is right? What are you basing this on?
And never would do, I believe the 14 (15?) players that have been let go by Ole since his appointment might think otherwise.
I'm basing it on my opinion. None of us knows what said behind closed doors.
And the other option doesnt paint a better picture anyway, that he DOES see a future for Lingard here. Both bad viewpoints.
He’s certainly got much more time than I do
So a hypothetical. That serves no purpose. From what's actually happened, I would say it's been pretty clear we've told Jesse he's not going to be first choice here. He's 27 and just come back from a loan ffs. There were rumours all summer about a move away from him, I just don't understand what you want Ole to do here. He's under contract, and if no one is willing to buy Jesse out of it, there's nothing we can do.
If the club decides to renew his contract, or do something silly like that, then I am with you, but to argue that Ole would never tell any players their time at the club is over, is daft, as he's already culled heaps of players 'savages' like LVG and Mourinho couldn't or had no intention of getting rid of.
It is widely acknowledged? That the team that had Rashford, Pogba, Lukaku, Martial and Shaw is horrible? Having Greenwood coming through and McTominay?
I mean, I am happy to agree, that many people said, that we were well under our capabilities but it wasn't a horrible squad. It was just mismanaged and bereft of motivation. But the job to bring in a new RB, CB or midfielder was obvious to see, same goes for getting rid of the deadwood which admittedly shouldn't just be the responsibility of the manager but the club itself. Ole showed a very good feel for the right people to bring in and he gave the go to the most successfull transfer I can think of in my whole time of following football (which admittedly is only around 15 years) in Bruno. The club has made some good and necessary decisions and all that led to us looking forward to our games again. Which is great and I am very thankful to participants.
But as soon as the machine is back on track and responsibilities are more defined, the more the focus should be on the core competencies of each part of the machine. And this is, where many are not fully convinced. Bringing in the right people, keeping the wage- and agestructure in check or setting a positive and professional mood shouldn't be stuff, the manager is needed for, these should be pre-requisites. So now the environment is set (re-set) we need everybody to excel in their specific areas and I hope, that Ole might be able to suprise us with some ideas and abilities which will suprise us once again. To this day, the indicators are ambivalent I would say. Some are fully convinced, fair play to them, and some are not. Doesn't mean, people that are more doubtful are full of misery and resentment. Not at all - I really like to make up my mind, look at stats, compare us to other teams and think of possible solutions to issues I see (that I consider as issues). Maybe that is the reason, why the notion of "the squad is still not completely there yet" is a bit cheap.
Regarding 1 and 2, beating City and coming from behind isn't proof of him being tactically smart or changing the game. His one real way of playing involves counter attacking which suits us against City but not other sides. That's why we've had embarrassing defeats to weak teams (e.g. Villareal, Istanbul). If he was that good tactically, he could adapt. Regarding point two, the team responding so well could just be a mental thing. I haven't seen anyone explain something he's actually done to change things. Certainly when it comes to subs, he usually refuses to make any before 70 minutes.
I dont think he's inept tactically but he's pretty one dimensional and I doubt we can win a title with that.
I thought it was quite an honest, vulnerable read. I didn’t agree with all of it but it was thoroughly rational and made a lot of sense.
You should appreciate it a bit more, I reckon; half of the imbeciles on the football forum here struggle to form a coherent sentence.
Not to mention Lindelof, Fred and De Gea. Indeed only AWB, Bruno and Maguire away from what was, until this summer, Ole's undisputed first choice team and squad regulars.
So no, obviously it wasn't a horrible squad he inherited, not even touching on the fact it finished with 81 points the season prior, but dont look for rational arguments in threads like this. The players were in a poor place in terms of confidence no doubt, the squad itself was fine.
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Nope sorry I truly cannot take any of these posts that talk about United being special and unique among other football clubs and how it’s some special feeling seriously. A lot of it made no sense to me. It was just very self indulgent stuff.
I didn't expect a wall of text as a reply, and dare I say with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I'm fine with it though, we all have our viewpoints.
I didn't say Ole was tactically inept all the time but sometimes he is. If you've watched us over the last 2 years and the number of draws we've had against low block teams, I'm not sure how this is even debatable. He has surely got his high points, his record against the better managers in PL talk for themselves, but he's not a top tier tactical manager like Klopp or Guardiola or Tuchel. I don't think he has hidden this at all, where he has candid in his interviews about his job. I'm sure every manager have been made to look like a fool in a one off game, but you just can't compare Guardiola's over the top tinkering with Ole's tactical nous at all. To state it again, he's tactically inept sometimes. not on every other game he has led United. I think there's a big difference between the two. It's not a sackable offense, but what I said is not wrong. Feel free to disagree though. I'm just going to ignore the entire narrative in your head blah de blah because it comes across as overly defensive.
I'm glad you didn't bother at all with the other points but went ahead with the rant. I'm ok with a slow overhaul of team and I'm glad we are not doing a 'replace the entire XI' approach. But the fact remains that we have to use McFred / Matic in midfield while we bought VdB, Ronaldo, Sancho, Cavani and Varane, with Lingard still on the books. This is something that could and should have been addressed in the window, and I just don't understand keeping Lingard and VdB in the squad at all. Anyway, not everything in can be laid at the feet of OGS which is why I have said that he has at least had a say in retaining some of the deadwood. Not sure what Mata adds to the team, never mind there are only 25 slots in the team. I've always backed Fergie to carry players like Anderson in the squad, but Fergie kept winning while he did it. Maybe OGS doesn't have the luxury yet.
My point though is ultimately different. I don't need to prove my top red creds to you but I'll tag someone who has been consistently been critical of OGS but have said he will happily support him if he wins something (@Kush) . I've been in discord groups with Kush and he can attest to the fact that I'm shamelessly pro OGS. I'm more than happy to have him manage the squad in spite of these shortcomings that I can readily agree. OGS is the first manager post SAF to put United front and center in every issue. He subtly protects his players, doesn't mind telling nonsense to the press to protect the club and acts with a refreshing integrity. Having hated Mou's resign vociferously. I'm glad that OGS is the manager of the club that I can identify with. I've stopped posting on football threads mostly here but while it may be controversial, I'm of the view that OGS be retained a manager for a couple of years more irrespective of the results and standings (obviously, a caveat in place for dangerously inexplicable drop in form) as he brings tangible progress in other areas of the club.
While I understand that there is a dichotomy of people here as Ole Inners and Ole Outters, I'm a Ole Inner who is proud to own his limitations and will have him as the manager. I'll also happily state that If he wasn't one of my favorite players and a club legend, I will probably be more critical of him. If I'm a hypocrite, I'll happily tell the world that I am.
I think what is forgotten sometimes is that even those elite managers have their own limitations which come to the fore at times eg. Pep and his ridiculous tinkering in critical European games. Klopp until he signed Allison and Van Dijk couldn't organise a defence to save his life.
Tactical ability aside, I think for a certain contingent amongst our fanbase (and I'm not pointing fingers at people in this thread, more the mob on social media) the lack of support for Ole is personality driven.
He's not got the slightly psychotic genius vibe of Pep, nor the intense charisma of Klopp - he's just a fairly normal acting and sounding bloke which is why he gets described as a PE Teacher even when regularly going far in cup competitions, beating top opposition and finishing higher than the majority of managers in the country in league competition.
It's why the likes of Arteta early on were spoken of as superior despite clearly being average as feck. Arteta looks like a suave, sophisticated guy from the school of Pep - therefore he gets labelled as a superior manager by idiots without anything to back it up.
It's not to say Ole doesn't have his own limitations, but I honestly think some don't rate him because he's too normal. Same reason some people still speak of Van Gaal and Mourinho as superior despite them doing deep lasting damage to the club.
Tactical ability aside, I think for a certain contingent amongst our fanbase (and I'm not pointing fingers at people in this thread, more the mob on social media) the lack of support for Ole is personality driven.
He's not got the slightly psychotic genius vibe of Pep, nor the intense charisma of Klopp - he's just a fairly normal acting and sounding bloke which is why he gets described as a PE Teacher even when regularly going far in cup competitions, beating top opposition and finishing higher than the majority of managers in the country in league competition.
It's why the likes of Arteta early on were spoken of as superior despite clearly being average as feck. Arteta looks like a suave, sophisticated guy from the school of Pep - therefore he gets labelled as a superior manager by idiots without anything to back it up.
It's not to say Ole doesn't have his own limitations, but I honestly think some don't rate him because he's too normal. Same reason some people still speak of Van Gaal and Mourinho as superior despite them doing deep lasting damage to the club.