Criticism is fine (and encouraged) but there are some criticisms thrown at Ole that don't make any sense

[Tarrou]

there are lots of things I could criticise him for (and do sometimes) but we're heading in the right direction, he's done a fantastic job so far

people act like managing a massive football club is a piece of piss

 

[Fox outside the box]

I didn't expect a wall of text as a reply, and dare I say with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I'm fine with it though, we all have our viewpoints.

I didn't say Ole was tactically inept all the time but sometimes he is. If you've watched us over the last 2 years and the number of draws we've had against low block teams, I'm not sure how this is even debatable. He has surely got his high points, his record against the better managers in PL talk for themselves, but he's not a top tier tactical manager like Klopp or Guardiola or Tuchel. I don't think he has hidden this at all, where he has candid in his interviews about his job. I'm sure every manager have been made to look like a fool in a one off game, but you just can't compare Guardiola's over the top tinkering with Ole's tactical nous at all. To state it again, he's tactically inept sometimes. not on every other game he has led United. I think there's a big difference between the two. It's not a sackable offense, but what I said is not wrong. Feel free to disagree though. I'm just going to ignore the entire narrative in your head blah de blah because it comes across as overly defensive.

I'm glad you didn't bother at all with the other points but went ahead with the rant. I'm ok with a slow overhaul of team and I'm glad we are not doing a 'replace the entire XI' approach. But the fact remains that we have to use McFred / Matic in midfield while we bought VdB, Ronaldo, Sancho, Cavani and Varane, with Lingard still on the books. This is something that could and should have been addressed in the window, and I just don't understand keeping Lingard and VdB in the squad at all. Anyway, not everything in can be laid at the feet of OGS which is why I have said that he has at least had a say in retaining some of the deadwood. Not sure what Mata adds to the team, never mind there are only 25 slots in the team. I've always backed Fergie to carry players like Anderson in the squad, but Fergie kept winning while he did it. Maybe OGS doesn't have the luxury yet.

My point though is ultimately different. I don't need to prove my top red creds to you but I'll tag someone who has been consistently been critical of OGS but have said he will happily support him if he wins something (@Kush) . I've been in discord groups with Kush and he can attest to the fact that I'm shamelessly pro OGS. I'm more than happy to have him manage the squad in spite of these shortcomings that I can readily agree. OGS is the first manager post SAF to put United front and center in every issue. He subtly protects his players, doesn't mind telling nonsense to the press to protect the club and acts with a refreshing integrity. Having hated Mou's resign vociferously. I'm glad that OGS is the manager of the club that I can identify with. I've stopped posting on football threads mostly here but while it may be controversial, I'm of the view that OGS be retained a manager for a couple of years more irrespective of the results and standings (obviously, a caveat in place for dangerously inexplicable drop in form) as he brings tangible progress in other areas of the club.

While I understand that there is a dichotomy of people here as Ole Inners and Ole Outters, I'm a Ole Inner who is proud to own his limitations and will have him as the manager. I'll also happily state that If he wasn't one of my favorite players and a club legend, I will probably be more critical of him. If I'm a hypocrite, I'll happily tell the world that I am.

Really good reply, I should have been clearer in that I wasn't specifically ranting about your post, more the wider issue of him being written off as useless etc. Your last paragraph is pretty much on the money with where I am.

Apologies if the attitude came across bad, I don't typically interact on forums, I type as I hear things in my head and my tone wasn't directed that way, I feel this conversation would have been very amicable face to face in all fairness.

Appreciate the reply though, can't really disagree with it.

 

[Bilbo]

people act like managing a massive football club is a piece of piss

Of course it is. You just sign any one of a dozen midfielders that people like and hire a coach that someone has heard of. That will solve all of our problems

 

[RetroStu]

people act like managing a massive football club is a piece of piss

I do a pretty good job on Football Manager to be honest.

 

[Giggsyking]

Inherited a bad squad?
FFS the squad he inherited finished with 81 points 6 months before his arrival. The right word to say is not a "bad squad". The right thing to say is, he inherited a squad finished second but is in shambles because of the toxic environment JM put the team in. He himself couldnt reach 81 points neither with the same squad nor with the addition of players that cost hundreds of millions.

 

[Bristol_Red_87]

I'm not Ole's biggest fan, I think he has too many limitations as a manager and I still don't see a defined "Identity" for us which you'd hope to see by now, however I would slightly counter that by saying he's potentially not had the playing staff to do it "his way"...that is until now.

Ultimately, he'll always face criticism, and even more so with the return of Ronaldo as expectations will, for some sky rocket to previously unmatched levels of fantasy.

We could win the league by 50 points and score 924 league goals and even then someone in the CAF will point out he didn't bring off Ronny quickly enough when we were 8-0 up at Burnley.

Someone please remind me of this when we lose 8-0 at Burnley, but I'm happy to see what we can do this season before I lay my hat..

 

[fishfingers15]

Really good reply, I should have been clearer in that I wasn't specifically ranting about your post, more the wider issue of him being written off as useless etc. Your last paragraph is pretty much on the money with where I am.

Apologies if the attitude came across bad, I don't typically interact on forums, I type as I hear things in my head and my tone wasn't directed that way, I feel this conversation would have been very amicable face to face in all fairness.

Appreciate the reply though, can't really disagree with it.

There is no need to apologize for your post and I didn't take any offence. It's all good.

I only wish to convey that there is a happy medium between OGS is a total waste of space and OGS is the next SAF. I think he's good for us, even with his limitations. Tactical masterminds like LvG didn't take us anywhere and lesser said the better about Mou. I'm not saying a manager like Tuchel won't improve us but I'm happy to support the club if they feel that OGS is pulling things along jnicely.

 

[meamth]

there are lots of things I could criticise him for (and do sometimes) but we're heading in the right direction, he's done a fantastic job so far

people act like managing a massive football club is a piece of piss

When we got calamity squad people were complaining.

When we finally got some stability going forward, we need better manager (TACTICALLY).

Ole cannot win until he won something, that's the reality.

 

[SAFMUTD]

So basically criticism is fine and encouraged as long as I agree with it?

 

[fishfingers15]

So basically criticism is fine and encouraged as long as I agree with it?

Not sure if you are really that important tbh

 

[Bilbo]

I'm happy to support the club if they feel that OGS is pulling things along nicely.

If there is a sentence that sums up how things would be in an ideal world then it would be this. Its fine to have reservations, and to write a fair critique is of course acceptable, but the level of anger and frustration that is all too apparent on here at times is not warranted. In fact its downright unhealthy and its putting a lot of people off of visiting this forum. So many posters on here come across as people that don't really enjoy following this club nowadays.

 

[Wumminator]

So basically criticism is fine and encouraged as long as I agree with it?

Genuine question.

Can you read?

 

[Strelok]

Great post OP.

Hope this won't turn into another Ole In/Out thread as usual.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

I only wish to convey that there is a happy medium between OGS is a total waste of space and OGS is the next SAF

Come on now, mate. This is an Internet forum!

 

[noodlehair]

I've been meaning to make this thread for a while. There seems to be some people who think that there are fervent Ole inners who can't take any criticism of the club. That is simply not true. What I (and others evidently) on this forum can't stand are illogical and stupid arguments. Here are some of them:

1) Ole is inept tactically
The fact Manchester United have just set a record for the longest unbeaten record is evidence of this. You simply can not go that long in the most competitive league unbeaten if you don't have a clue what you are doing. The fact that Ole has the best record against Pep of anyone who has ever played against him (as far as I am aware) should also go to dismissing that fallacy. If you want to argue that tactics can be improved, then I would love to read your posts. I don't really understand a lot about football myself. But the idea that he's completely useless is thrown around here a lot and it doesn't follow.

2) Ole is poor at changing the game
The simple fact that we have come from behind to win so often is proof that this is also nonsense. We gained thirty-one points from being behind at different points last year. That is insane. The idea that follows that Ole doesn't react quick enough or is poor at making subs is therefore silly as well. Are there instances where Ole didn't make the exact decision you would have done? Sure. Is Ole clearly understanding the pattern of the games and adapting accordingly. Well obviously.

3.) Ole has ignored the midfield problem
Not at all. He just can't solve everything at once. We are now seeing Ole assembling the most exciting United team for almost a decade. But there probably is an issue with our midfield. The problem is before this window there was also a problem with our right wing and our CB. At centre back we've just signed a world class defender (as far as we can assume so far) and means we now have a great back up option in Lindelof to rotate. Otherwise we were one injury away from relying on Baily and Tuanzebe. Sancho will hopefully prove to be an exceptional talent in a role where we literally had Greenwood and Dan James. Now of all the pressing concerns we had, CB and RW seemed to be a massive priority. Effectively we've spent 90 million this summer and upgraded both significantly.

4.) Ole has kept the deadwood around/we are fleeced for our player sales.
Now this one I get but some people have both these views simultaneously. We know there are some players in the squad that are not up to our standard. However, you simply can not get rid of these players for nothing else you will have a weaker position in the transfer market next time. I've seen some people say we should just accept a couple of million for Lingard and get him to West Ham. If you do that, you won't get £25 million for James later in the window. Ole has absolutely turfed out around 15 first team players in his time at the club who weren't good enough and now we finally look to have a squad of players ready to contribute. Lest you forget that Young, Valencia, Rojo, Darmian, Fellaini, Sanchez, Smalling, Perreira were all around the first team when he arrived and have since been deemed no longer good enough.

Again, there are issues with the team. If you want to point out we often go behind in games and make it hard for ourselves, that is fair enough. If you want to argue that Ole should have strengthened midfield rather than CB that is also fair enough, it's just much more complicated than flat out saying he has ignored it.

No-one wants a forum where people can't complain. We just want reasonable posts and some of you have clearly decided Ole is not good enough and make up any old reason to justify your opinion.

So I'm still torn two ways on Ole.

I don't think he gets enough credit for the improvements he's made, or any of the positive things he's done. Our squad compared to when he took over undeniably has more quality in it. The attitude and level of performance of almost every player has improved. We are much more fun to watch in spite of the kind of fair criticisms about us not having a clear style of play. We show character now, the team is more likeable. We have had some great moments even without a trophy. Some of it you can put on the players, but Ole is the manager so you have to give him the credit where it is due.

But...a lot of the criticisms to be honest are fair. I wouldn't say he is tactically inept. We don't set up and spend 70 minutes not trying to score a goal, or with wingers playing up front and strikers in midfield and everything just hoofing the ball to Fellaini so he can head it to no one, as we did under known tactical genius LVG. He is though a bit tactically unaware...but I would say there are few managers who are tactical geniuses, partly because a football game isn't actually a game of chess, so it's not a massive criticism. Sir Alex for example would do some very strange things and Pep at times is bafflingly stubborn and seems to insinuate it's the other team's fault for not playing football correctly if they tactically outsmart him.

He is undeniably poor at recognising when a change is needed in a game for me. Last season for example...Brighton away...9-10 times they get a chance at the far post due to Bissaka being exposed there. Ole does nothing and it should cost us the game if it wasn't for us being awarded a penalty after the game had finished. Everyone watching this game could see that we should have changed it, and this is a frequent pattern in our games. Sometimes it is obvious before the game even starts...last week for example. I knew before the game that Matic would sit too deep and our midfield would struggle with Fred there on his own...and a lot of other people watching would have thought/known this as well, and this is exactly what happened, and it didn't get addressed at any point. Firstly, if as a fan you know where your team is going to struggle before the game starts, then it is perfectly fair to criticise the manager if he cannot spot this. Secondly, the problem isn't so much making the mistake in the first place, it's the fact he will make the same mistake again within the next few weeks. Indicating that he is actually completely oblivious to it.

He has clearly ignored the midfield problem, in that the midfield is clearly a problem. Even if you really rate Fred and McTominay, there are only two of them and we play 50+ games over a season. We have spent £80m on Sancho, then signed Varane and Ronaldo. The midfield has either been ignored or whatever attempt to address it that there was has failed. Its also not a problem that has cropped up overnight. The midfield has been a problem since before Ole took over. The one bit of progress Ole has made is recognising that Pogba is far better suited playing in front of it, but then every 2-3 games he still sticks him back there again because we have no one else. We can argue about whether midfield was a bigger priority than signing a centreback, Sancho, etc...but the midfield has not been addressed, that much is just a fact.

I don't care about the deadwood argument. I would be with you on that. "deadwood" has been a buzzword on here for years. As soon as we sell one player who is supposedly deadwood, people just lable someone else as it. Its quite childish really. Often it'll be used to describe players who are actually important over the course of a season. We do have too many players now, but I think that's more a legacy of Woodward's ridiculous attempt to run down the contracts of half our squad at the same time a few years ago. It's certainly not something Ole is the main culprit for.

The other thing though, is that these criticisms aren't unique to Ole. As someone else in this thread rightly pointed out, you can put fair criticisms at any manager. Sir Alex was guilty of a lot of the things Ole is. He spent nearly a whole season playing KEane at centreback and O'Shea/Phil Neville in midfield. He brought on O'Shea as a striker when we needed a goal against Bayern Munich. Pep/Klopp do some very silly things. The difference with these managers is that they are exceptional in other areas so the mistakes might cost the odd game here and there, but are generally eclipsed by the fact they drive the team to being a succesful one. This is what Ole hasn't quite been able to do. The mistakes he makes almost seem to be the difference between the team being succesful or not. His weird management in the Europa League final you could argue was a major contributor to us not winning it. What gets lost in the frustration is the recognition that maybe if it wasn't for Ole the team wouldn't be there in the first place.

So for me he either needs to cut down on the errors (unlikely as he doesn't seem to learn from them), or prove he can be succesful in spite of them, which I have doubts about but am still not at a point where I have given up hope...especially not after 3 games...but it is very frustrating to see us struggle in games for the same reasons over and over. We have had three games this season, and the midfield problem has surfaced in two of them, and we also won a game 5-1 and then thought it was clever to pick a completely different attack for the next one. Its hard to understand at times. I think overall he is doing a good job, and the issue is that the expectency at United for a long term manager would be "great" rather than "good".

 

[Fox outside the box]

There is no need to apologize for your post and I didn't take any offence. It's all good.

I only wish to convey that there is a happy medium between OGS is a total waste of space and OGS is the next SAF. I think he's good for us, even with his limitations. Tactical masterminds like LvG didn't take us anywhere and lesser said the better about Mou. I'm not saying a manager like Tuchel won't improve us but I'm happy to support the club if they feel that OGS is pulling things along jnicely.

Cheers for that. Yep, that's pretty much exactly where I'm at. There's rarely much middle ground in football, a player or manager is either dog shit or world class it seems.

 

[Strelok]

So I'm still torn two ways on Ole.

I don't think he gets enough credit for the improvements he's made, or any of the positive things he's done. Our squad compared to when he took over undeniably has more quality in it. The attitude and level of performance of almost every player has improved. We are much more fun to watch in spite of the kind of fair criticisms about us not having a clear style of play. We show character now, the team is more likeable. We have had some great moments even without a trophy. Some of it you can put on the players, but Ole is the manager so you have to give him the credit where it is due.

But...a lot of the criticisms to be honest are fair. I wouldn't say he is tactically inept. We don't set up and spend 70 minutes not trying to score a goal, or with wingers playing up front and strikers in midfield and everything just hoofing the ball to Fellaini so he can head it to no one, as we did under known tactical genius LVG. He is though a bit tactically unaware...but I would say there are few managers who are tactical geniuses, partly because a football game isn't actually a game of chess, so it's not a massive criticism. Sir Alex for example would do some very strange things and Pep at times is bafflingly stubborn and seems to insinuate it's the other team's fault for not playing football correctly if they tactically outsmart him.

He is undeniably poor at recognising when a change is needed in a game for me. Last season for example...Brighton away...9-10 times they get a chance at the far post due to Bissaka being exposed there. Ole does nothing and it should cost us the game if it wasn't for us being awarded a penalty after the game had finished. Everyone watching this game could see that we should have changed it, and this is a frequent pattern in our games. Sometimes it is obvious before the game even starts...last week for example. I knew before the game that Matic would sit too deep and our midfield would struggle with Fred there on his own...and a lot of other people watching would have thought/known this as well, and this is exactly what happened, and it didn't get addressed at any point. Firstly, if as a fan you know where your team is going to struggle before the game starts, then it is perfectly fair to criticise the manager if he cannot spot this. Secondly, the problem isn't so much making the mistake in the first place, it's the fact he will make the same mistake again within the next few weeks. Indicating that he is actually completely oblivious to it.

He has clearly ignored the midfield problem, in that the midfield is clearly a problem. Even if you really rate Fred and McTominay, there are only two of them and we play 50+ games over a season. We have spent £80m on Sancho, then signed Varane and Ronaldo. The midfield has either been ignored or whatever attempt to address it that there was has failed. Its also not a problem that has cropped up overnight. The midfield has been a problem since before Ole took over. The one bit of progress Ole has made is recognising that Pogba is far better suited playing in front of it, but then every 2-3 games he still sticks him back there again because we have no one else. We can argue about whether midfield was a bigger priority than signing a centreback, Sancho, etc...but the midfield has not been addressed, that much is just a fact.

I don't care about the deadwood argument. I would be with you on that. "deadwood" has been a buzzword on here for years. As soon as we sell one player who is supposedly deadwood, people just lable someone else as it. Its quite childish really. Often it'll be used to describe players who are actually important over the course of a season. We do have too many players now, but I think that's more a legacy of Woodward's ridiculous attempt to run down the contracts of half our squad at the same time a few years ago. It's certainly not something Ole is the main culprit for.

The other thing though, is that these criticisms aren't unique to Ole. As someone else in this thread rightly pointed out, you can put fair criticisms at any manager. Sir Alex was guilty of a lot of the things Ole is. He spent nearly a whole season playing KEane at centreback and O'Shea/Phil Neville in midfield. He brought on O'Shea as a striker when we needed a goal against Bayern Munich. Pep/Klopp do some very silly things. The difference with these managers is that they are exceptional in other areas so the mistakes might cost the odd game here and there, but are generally eclipsed by the fact they drive the team to being a succesful one. This is what Ole hasn't quite been able to do. The mistakes he makes almost seem to be the difference between the team being succesful or not. His weird management in the Europa League final you could argue was a major contributor to us not winning it.

So for me he either needs to cut down on the errors (unlikely as he doesn't seem to learn from them), or prove he can be succesful in spite of them, which I have doubts about but am still not at a point where I have given up hope...especially not after 3 games...but it is very frustrating to see us struggle in games for the same reasons over and over. We have had three games this season, and the midfield problem has surfaced in two of them, and we also won a game 5-1 and then thought it was clever to pick a completely different attack for the next one. Its hard to understand at times.

Good post. I agree with a lot of what you said.

However not the part of the midfield. I was also crying for a midfielder this summer but rationally speaking, seeing McFred playing is a lot less worse than seeing Lindelof at the back or Rashford, Greenwood of the last season or James at RW. We basically couldn't attack there to a point teams didn't bother to defend their left flank.

Had McT was not injured imo the midfield issue would not be regarded as seriously as atm. He tried Matic Fred it didn't work, then he switched on Pogba Fred. Guess next time it might be VDB Fred. It's not like he has many choices anyway I think.

We probably spent all of our money on Sancho and Varane and it's also true there was not many good CM available. I'd rather wait and get the right one than panic and get another deadwood, we had more than enough already.

Still, I don't know if loan is possible after the window closed but in case it is we should get a good CM on loan I think. Or by Jan.

 

[noodlehair]

Good post. I agree with a lot of what you said.

However not the part of the midfield. I was also crying for a midfielder this summer but rationally speaking, seeing McFred playing is a lot less worse than seeing Lindelof at the back or Rashford, Greenwood of the last season or James at RW. We basically couldn't attack there to a point teams didn't bother to defend their left flank.

Had McT was not injured imo the midfield issue would not be regarded as seriously as atm. He tried Matic Fred it didn't work, then he switched on Pogba Fred. Guess next time it might be VDB Fred. It's not like he has many choices anyway I think.

We probably spent all of our money on Sancho and Varane and it's also true there was not many good CM available. I'd rather wait and get the right one than panic and get another deadwood, we had more than enough already.

Still, I don't know if loan is possible after the window closed but in case it is we should get a good CM on loan I think. Or by Jan.

I'm not sure what the issue supposedly is with Greenwood as he's 19 and has mostly been extremely good. I would agree James isn't really good enough and Rashford should never be on the right both because he is rubbish there and because its a complete waste even when he is in form...but I wouldn't agree its a bigger problem than the midfield. We scored plenty of goals last season and when there was an issue with attacking it was usually the lack of a reliable striker in the absence of Cavani. Then there is the issue that Sancho is actually seemingly more comfortable on the left so we can't even be sure he addresses the problem.

Midfield would have been up there as the priority for me along with centreback (obviously no complaints there). I actually think Fred and McTominay are fine, as a pair, but the idea they'll both stay fit and unfatigued for every game goes beyond gambling and into being completely unrealistic. McTominay always picks up injuries, Fred always has bad runs of form, and both get tired when played too often. We didn't need to try Matic and Fred to know it wouldn't work because we already know Matic will go and sit in with the centrebacks as soon as the opposition press. We already know we can't really play Pogba there either so that leaves no alternative options unless we try VDB which Ole evidently does not see as an option. Its going to make a lot of games this season into a struggle where the defence and forwards will be trying to compensate for carrying the midfield. For me its a fundemental problem, where as the right wing was just somewhere that we could do with improving.

The fact Chelsea were able and also felt the need to bring in a quality midfielder on loan, despite already having a stronger midfield than us, kind of emphasises the point. I think its fair to make arguments about whether it was a priority...I just wouldn't necessarily agree with them, but we'll see...Its not accurate to say we haven't ignored the midfield though when other teams we are competing with were able to address their own midfields, without even spending any money on a transfer.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I've been meaning to make this thread for a while. There seems to be some people who think that there are fervent Ole inners who can't take any criticism of the club. That is simply not true. What I (and others evidently) on this forum can't stand are illogical and stupid arguments. Here are some of them:

1) Ole is inept tactically
The fact Manchester United have just set a record for the longest unbeaten record is evidence of this. You simply can not go that long in the most competitive league unbeaten if you don't have a clue what you are doing. The fact that Ole has the best record against Pep of anyone who has ever played against him (as far as I am aware) should also go to dismissing that fallacy. If you want to argue that tactics can be improved, then I would love to read your posts. I don't really understand a lot about football myself. But the idea that he's completely useless is thrown around here a lot and it doesn't follow.

2) Ole is poor at changing the game
The simple fact that we have come from behind to win so often is proof that this is also nonsense. We gained thirty-one points from being behind at different points last year. That is insane. The idea that follows that Ole doesn't react quick enough or is poor at making subs is therefore silly as well. Are there instances where Ole didn't make the exact decision you would have done? Sure. Is Ole clearly understanding the pattern of the games and adapting accordingly. Well obviously.

3.) Ole has ignored the midfield problem
Not at all. He just can't solve everything at once. We are now seeing Ole assembling the most exciting United team for almost a decade. But there probably is an issue with our midfield. The problem is before this window there was also a problem with our right wing and our CB. At centre back we've just signed a world class defender (as far as we can assume so far) and means we now have a great back up option in Lindelof to rotate. Otherwise we were one injury away from relying on Baily and Tuanzebe. Sancho will hopefully prove to be an exceptional talent in a role where we literally had Greenwood and Dan James. Now of all the pressing concerns we had, CB and RW seemed to be a massive priority. Effectively we've spent 90 million this summer and upgraded both significantly.

4.) Ole has kept the deadwood around/we are fleeced for our player sales.
Now this one I get but some people have both these views simultaneously. We know there are some players in the squad that are not up to our standard. However, you simply can not get rid of these players for nothing else you will have a weaker position in the transfer market next time. I've seen some people say we should just accept a couple of million for Lingard and get him to West Ham. If you do that, you won't get £25 million for James later in the window. Ole has absolutely turfed out around 15 first team players in his time at the club who weren't good enough and now we finally look to have a squad of players ready to contribute. Lest you forget that Young, Valencia, Rojo, Darmian, Fellaini, Sanchez, Smalling, Perreira were all around the first team when he arrived and have since been deemed no longer good enough.

Again, there are issues with the team. If you want to point out we often go behind in games and make it hard for ourselves, that is fair enough. If you want to argue that Ole should have strengthened midfield rather than CB that is also fair enough, it's just much more complicated than flat out saying he has ignored it.

No-one wants a forum where people can't complain. We just want reasonable posts and some of you have clearly decided Ole is not good enough and make up any old reason to justify your opinion.

1 - I feel we have the most individual players that change the game in the whole league. Bruno, Pogba, Greenwood, Martial, Rashford, Cavanni and Ronaldo now are all capable of changing the game with a moment of brilliance. We shouldn't be relying on that though and thats the issue. We are a tea of moments rather than patterns, and that worrying. When players are having a bad game, its the patterns that can get you a goal. Who knows, maybe Oles plan is to load up as many players capable of good moments and hope for the best.

2 - We have had so many bad first halves, too many. If Ole wa sas good as a United manager should be, we shouldnt have to come back so often.

3 - How has he not? He has signed one midfielder who he doesnt like playing. Every other midfielder was there with Jose.

4 - Mata is a waste of wages, its things like that I dont like. But thats more on the owners than just Ole.

I have always said, a lot of fans don't demand enough of the manager at United out of fear of looking unsupportive. Thats how your post reads to me.

 

[ghagua]

Ole has done a great job of steadying the ship, something we needed after LVG and Maureen. He has cleared out some deadwood that needed to be sent out of the club, but let's not forget all the deadwood we still have at the club which Ole had hand in keeping. Lukaku was not deadwood, neither was Smalling. Teams actually paid transfer fees for them and they played well elsewhere.

What the issue is with Ole is clear to see on the pitch. The tumescent, slow brand of football where we try and hit on the break is not something you can win a title with. Fans have given him an excuse by constantly saying he does not have the players to play an attractive style of football. I do not see a single club with 11 superstar players, but most teams play a better brand of football with some really nice passing. He has the players now, so let's see the football that is played on the pitch the next few months. If he keeps us in the top 4 he will stay as that's what the Glazers are fine with, but I do not see the brand of football changing as neither Ole nor his coaching staff have that ability, otherwise, we would have seen that on the pitch already.

 

[Strelok]

I'm not sure what the issue supposedly is with Greenwood as he's 19 and has mostly been extremely good. I would agree James isn't really good enough and Rashford should never be on the right both because he is rubbish there and because its a complete waste even when he is in form...but I wouldn't agree its a bigger problem than the midfield. We scored plenty of goals last season and when there was an issue with attacking it was usually the lack of a reliable striker in the absence of Cavani. Then there is the issue that Sancho is actually seemingly more comfortable on the left so we can't even be sure he addresses the problem.

Midfield would have been up there as the priority for me along with centreback (obviously no complaints there). I actually think Fred and McTominay are fine, as a pair, but the idea they'll both stay fit and unfatigued for every game goes beyond gambling and into being completely unrealistic. McTominay always picks up injuries, Fred always has bad runs of form, and both get tired when played too often. We didn't need to try Matic and Fred to know it wouldn't work because we already know Matic will go and sit in with the centrebacks as soon as the opposition press. We already know we can't really play Pogba there either so that leaves no alternative options unless we try VDB which Ole evidently does not see as an option. Its going to make a lot of games this season into a struggle where the defence and forwards will be trying to compensate for carrying the midfield. For me its a fundemental problem, where as the right wing was just somewhere that we could do with improving.

The fact Chelsea were able and also felt the need to bring in a quality midfielder on loan, despite already having a stronger midfield than us, kind of emphasises the point. I think its fair to make arguments about whether it was a priority...I just wouldn't necessarily agree with them, but we'll see...Its not accurate to say we haven't ignored the midfield though when other teams we are competing with were able to address their own midfields, without even spending any money on a transfer.

You probably didn't remember but Greenwood was not really in top form last season. He usually tried to cut in from the right but blocked then he basically made no impact. Adding AWB offensive liability to that and our right wing often didn't exist. Which lead to teams able to shift their defense more to their right and block both our flanks.

You should check some of the RW thread last season and you'd see how big that issue was for us.

It's not ideal that we couldn't address our midfield this summer but imo it's understandable. Anyway it's not on Ole I think, he of course would love to buy or loan a better CM if possible.

 

[King Azaz the Unabridged]

I was also crying for a midfielder this summer but rationally speaking, seeing McFred playing is a lot less worse than seeing Lindelof at the back or Rashford, Greenwood of the last season or James at RW. We basically couldn't attack there to a point teams didn't bother to defend their left flank.

Spot on. This is going to become obvious to everyone the second Sancho hits his stride.

The vast majority of pundits and Twitter fans have goldfish memories, so right now the line after two games where we've lost the midfield battle is that Sancho was an unnecessary luxury and there was no need to sign a right winger. As limited as they are, McTominay and Fred will look miles better once we start building attacks using the entire damn pitch instead of having everyone standing in the same spot.

 

[pocco]

It's a weak argument which gets trotted out any time United finish higher than Liverpool.
Thw whole league was shit for a good 20 years when fergie was in charge.

Maybe to some people, but we had some really good league wins fighting against good Arsenal, Chelsea and then City teams. The league is a better standard now overall (though the invincibles Arsenal and Jose's Chelsea were as good as any right now), but I do think last season was a bit of an anomaly in terms of performance of other big teams. A bit like the 2015 season, which also can't be denied was a weak season for the biggest teams.

 

[Lay]

The disrespect Ole gets is ridiculous. Great pro for us, gets the club, knows what it means to play for the club. Yet he gets called a PE teacher by our own fans.

 

[Bobcat]

I'd argue that some of his critics are right about a few things with coaching being the big one. Imo, we are way to dependent on advancing the ball through the flanks and it makes our build up a bit one dimensional

On the whole i agree with the OP though. Especially the low (no?) effort one-liners after each and every poor performance are getting very old now

 

[noodlehair]

You probably didn't remember but Greenwood was not really in top form last season. He usually tried to cut in from the right but blocked then he basically made no impact. Adding AWB offensive liability to that and our right wing often didn't exist. Which lead to teams able to shift their defense more to their right and block both our flanks.

You should check some of the RW thread last season and you'd see how big that issue was for us.

It's not ideal that we couldn't address our midfield this summer but imo it's understandable. Anyway it's not on Ole I think, he of course would love to buy or loan a better CM if possible.

Greenwoood was a bit off last season but then he's a teenager so that is just going to happen. Sancho is barely older than him so I'm not sure how signing him solves that problem specifically. At the moment if you had to pick one of them to play on the right its a very easy decision and the decision isn't Sancho.

I think Bissaka's shortcomings going forwards are overstated as well. At some point on here people started expecting whoever we play at right back to somehow be better at attacking than almost any right back in the history of football. There is basically nothing Bissaka can do that people will be happy with. Its all a bit bizarre to me as I think the right wing is an area where we could do better but its not like we've been losing or unable to compete in games due to who we play there. The most frustrating thing has been seeing Ole pick Rashford to play there completely unecessarily over and over (which I bet he'll still do this season, btw) and weakkening our left wing in the process...and the most frustrating thing with Bissaka for me is actually his inabillity defensively to cover the far post on crosses.

To be honest I don't pay too much attention to the general consensus on here because it is often quite bonkers. At one point Lukaku was rubbish for us while scoring nearly 30 goals in a season. At another point the biggest issue was apparently that Rooney was secretly picking the team (no seriously). A year or so ago the consensus was that Ole was rubbish because his name wasn't Pochettino and because he doesn't know how to coach a team in the way Lampard does...and I also remember most people on here wanting Ronaldo sold because he supposedly wasn't good enough. I often feel like I just watch completely different games to this forum.

I think it is on Ole because the way he picks and sets up his teams and constantlly fails to address the same repeating issues in midfielld, suggests he doesn't really recognise that there is a problem there. Or doesn't think its a particularly significant one...where as the two of our three games this season and the inevitable injury to McTominay would suggest that it certainly is a significant problem. Setting up how we diid against Wolves and letting the opposition run riot through the middle almost certainly would cost us games or stop us being able to compete in them.

 

[Strelok]

Greenwoood was a bit off last season but then he's a teenager so that is just going to happen. Sancho is barely older than him so I'm not sure how signing him solves that problem specifically. At the moment if you had to pick one of them to play on the right its a very easy decision and the decision isn't Sancho.

I think Bissaka's shortcomings going forwards are overstated as well. At some point on here people started expecting whoever we play at right back to somehow be better at attacking than almost any right back in the history of football. There is basically nothing Bissaka can do that people will be happy with. Its all a bit bizarre to me as I think the right wing is an area where we could do better but its not like we've been losing or unable to compete in games due to who we play there. The most frustrating thing has been seeing Ole pick Rashford to play there completely unecessarily over and over (which I bet he'll still do this season, btw) and weakkening our left wing in the process...and the most frustrating thing with Bissaka for me is actually his inabillity defensively to cover the far post on crosses.

To be honest I don't pay too much attention to the general consensus on here because it is often quite bonkers. At one point Lukaku was rubbish for us while scoring nearly 30 goals in a season. At another point the biggest issue was apparently that Rooney was secretly picking the team (no seriously). A year or so ago the consensus was that Ole was rubbish because his name wasn't Pochettino and because he doesn't know how to coach a team in the way Lampard does...and I also remember most people on here wanting Ronaldo sold because he supposedly wasn't good enough. I often feel like I just watch completely different games to this forum.

I think it is on Ole because the way he picks and sets up his teams and constantlly fails to address the same repeating issues in midfielld, suggests he doesn't really recognise that there is a problem there. Or doesn't think its a particularly significant one...where as the two of our three games this season and the inevitable injury to McTominay would suggest that it certainly is a significant problem. Setting up how we diid against Wolves and letting the opposition run riot through the middle almost certainly would cost us games or stop us being able to compete in them.

Because Sancho is a winger and already one of the best in the world despite his age. We didn't buy him for this season but also for the next 5 - 10 years. At least supposedly so.

Atm Greenwood is in top form but that would change quickly, he's still a teenager and inconsistency is something associated with being a young player. Same thing could be said regarding Sancho.

Ole surely can't get his tactics right all the time, no one does as it's a battle between the two managers and their coaching staff to get the better one. Even the best managers the world had seen like SAF got it wrong, we're knew for our comebacks under him anyway. But to think Ole and his staff couldn't see that obvious issue of our midfield is a bit naive imo. They definitely know about football more than anyone here.

Btw you should be able to distinguish facts and opinions. The caf surely has some crazy opinions sometime but for example our RW issue last season is a fact.

 

[Strelok]

Spot on. This is going to become obvious to everyone the second Sancho hits his stride.

The vast majority of pundits and Twitter fans have goldfish memories, so right now the line after two games where we've lost the midfield battle is that Sancho was an unnecessary luxury and there was no need to sign a right winger. As limited as they are, McTominay and Fred will look miles better once we start building attacks using the entire damn pitch instead of having everyone standing in the same spot.

Bang on.

Imo lot of our fans don't really understand how good Ole is. The pundits and media just make it worse by following the trend for clicks. Especially from the anti United brigade. I never read or follow anyone of them, they only ride the waves for the clicks. A win Ole is a genius, a draw of lost Ole is a PE teacher. Of course both are bollocks.

Aside from rebuilding our squad, our culture, our structure Ole had managed to finish second with an average CB, an average midfield and no right flank. And basically no depth.

Imo this season despite the average midfield, once Sancho click, Rashford is back, McT is back, with Ronaldo we'd see a very exciting United. Last year we were quite exciting to watch sometime but this year would be a new whole level. Even if Sancho takes longer to find himself Mason is already a phenomenal player so that can happen even without Sancho. I don't say we'd win anything, there're too many variables in a long season to make that bold prediction. But I'm absolutely sure our football will be very different this season once we have our full first XI.

 

[Flexdegea]

I had a mate tell me yesterday he just doesn't rate him, thinks he In way over his head.


Prob the daftest comment I've seen when you actually think of it, if that was true we not have finished 5th, 3rd and 2nd, as well and building the most exciting squad and team we have had since Fergie went.

Quick look at the managers we have had before him, if he is in over his head, what the hell were they then??


Some folk just formed an opinion early, and they can't move from it. Gets bit silly some times regarding the manager. Lot of it comes from no rival fans rating him, or the media either, so lot of folks just go along with it.


He clearly doing a good job. Transformed us on and off the pitch., From what we were. Stabilized the club massively.


Needs a trophy of some sort to get lot more people on board.

 

[Lentwood]

I think people are very quick to forget how bad we have been post-SAF, and especially in the period before Ole took over. We really were an absolute shambles, what was it, two top four finishes in six seasons, or something like that? Forget winning a title, we were going into each season just hoping we might scrape 4th! It's funny how people quickly just accept that as a given again but give no credit to Ole for that. The fact we're not even talking about a top four battle shows huge progress.

I also can't make sense of the people who criticise Ole because he hasn't won a trophy yet. Would you look at the squad he inherited and say "that team should/could" win a trophy? I would say definitely not. I don't see how anybody can try to argue that we have underachieved given the players we have had at our disposal. Yes, now we have a much better squad, but its still a young squad and it's still weak in a couple of key areas (CDM & GK). Again, would you say we have a better squad than Chelsea or City? I'd say 'no'. Therefore this, "Ole has to win a trophy or leave" doesn't make any sense to me. Why is every argument so binary? I'll say it again, it's because this is how the MSM talk. Pundits say things like "Ole has to win a trophy" and you get a load of lemmings popping up on here going "Ole has to win a trophy, Ole has to win a trophy, Ole has to win a trophy".

There are a large number of posters who say things like, "we're a top club, we should be doing xyz", or "we're Man United", which I am sorry, is meaningless drivel. Nobody has a God-given right to win anything, particularly in what looks like arguably the most competitive Premier League ever.

My stance has never changed. The club has done nothing but make progress under Ole, and whilst that continues to be the case, there shouldn't even be a debate. That doesn't mean there aren't targets, but these aren't binary. If we don't win a trophy, so what? Have another go next year! If we finish 3rd but we're still bang in the title race in the final few games, again that's progress.

 

[Bilbo]

I think it is on Ole because the way he picks and sets up his teams and constantlly fails to address the same repeating issues in midfielld, suggests he doesn't really recognise that there is a problem there. Or doesn't think its a particularly significant one...where as the two of our three games this season and the inevitable injury to McTominay would suggest that it certainly is a significant problem. Setting up how we diid against Wolves and letting the opposition run riot through the middle almost certainly would cost us games or stop us being able to compete in them.

Agree with a lot of what you've said in the last few posts, but I just find it too much of a stretch to believe that Ole isn't seeing or expecting to see what happens when a midfield other than the McFred combination takes the field. He knows these players way better than we do. For me it has to be filed in the 'there are things we don't & can't know' column because there is no way any manager at this level is missing anything this clear. A lot of what we've seen in the last two games is the same as the start of last season - the team simply don't look physically ready yet. Wolves was a shambles in the same way that Spurs and Brighton were this time last year, and they were probably the only performances all season that conveyed that same level of disarray that we saw at Wolves.

As for why we haven't recruited a midfielder? I think the club have their targets and if they can't get them they wait until they can. We wanted Camavinga but that was a non-starter. We obviously didn't see enough in the likes of Niguez or whoever else to do a deal. I'm fine with that. Lack of planning and due diligence is what got this squad into the mess it was. If we need a season to get who we want then so be it.

 

[Mike Phelan's Former Tash]

I dont understand this argument that he is tactically inept. Seems to be peoples intuition rather than factual.

No manager gets it right all the time. Klopp dealt with injuries poorly last year in his squad building and how he reacted to them (they also conceded 7 goals without injuries as reigning champions by the way). Pep tinkers too much when its crunch time in the champions league, are these two inept as well? Apparently not, they're the greatest managers the league has ever seen!

We have just broke the record for being undefeated away. He also has a positive record against most other high profile managers.

The positives Ole brings far outweigh the negatives. This team he's built now although not quite complete is a Manchester United team.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I'm incredibly torn on Ole.

I really want him to succeed, because I think his character/man-management is excellent. I've flip-flopped on him so many times.

The highs we've had under Ole in terms of performances mixed with results are definitely the highest post-SAF. We've had runs where we've played some really good football and gotten results. He's also brought back the mentality of old regarding comebacks. We conceded 1st so many times last season and clawed back a win or a draw. I also think his recruitment has been clearly the best from our managers post-SAF as well. The only 'dud' we've had from his recruitments has been Van De Beek(and maybe he still performs well this season). Everyone else has ranged from solid to great.

He's also improved a lot of players. Fred, McTominay, Shaw, Rashford, and even his management of Pogba after Raiola's words last season was exceptional. Players will run through walls for him and there's a mutual trust there. His handling of Greenwood also has been good and he is probably the best youngster I've seen come through the ranks as a United fan.

My concern is that with Ole, we'll always be 'nearly men' in everything. We've gone far in every cup competition under Ole, but we can't get over the line. Our champions league bottle-job in the group stages last season was embarrassing. The loss to Villareal was embarrassing. We were also 1st last season in February, but then proceeded to bottle it as soon as we were 1st for a few weeks and lost to one of the worst Premier League sides ever in Sheffield United. We always seem to end seasons poorly. It's happened every single season under Ole thus far. I also don't like how overly cautious we can be in big games.

Also, when we go through a major lull under Ole(which we seemingly go through every season), we really do look poor. Despite what people say, we've had performances that wouldn't look out of place next to the very worst of Moyes, LVG, or Jose.

I really hope he proves me and a lot of his detractors wrong this season. We have so much quality in the side. I don't even think it's biased to suggest that we have the most individual quality in the Premier League.

 

[romufc]

The funniest thing I have seen is when we win, people say, put 11 good players and they will find a way to win, when we score good goals they put it down to the players being so good and nothing tactically.

We have a Wolves performance and its Ole's fault, he is tactically inept, Ole ball is crap, bla bla bla.

At least have the same energy for both, if you criticise Ole for one game, you have to praise him when we win.

I saw somewhere where on twitter Rants and his crew saying Ronaldo is finished so I thought I go have a look at it. They are the most disgusting and disrespectful bunch of fans, I watched it for 10 minutes and the crap coming out of their mouth is special.

 

[sugar_kane]

Part of the problem is that Liverpool & City set ridiculous expectations for a Premier League season in 2018/19 and 2019/20.

Any time we drop points now it's a fecking DISASTER and the manager has to go, any time we play a bit shit it's a similar story - as though that's completely unheard of for good teams with good managers. Any player who has a few bad games, get rid as well.

The 'embarrassments' spoken of above happen regularly to clubs, top level football is a highly competitive sport and someone has to lose and there will be upsets.

What an increasing amount of fans of top teams these days seem to want is for their team to never lose, never play bad, always outwit the other manager, win everything going, sign all the best players, not have any average players in the squad.

It's honestly quite exhausting.

Let's not forget Pep had a pretty rubbish start to last season, and only got going around December/January, people were talking about him getting sacked or walking and he's arguably the best manager in the world. It's just modern football, or should I say it's an attitude that has always existed in football fandom but is now massively amplified and solidified by social media.

 

[sugar_kane]

The funniest thing I have seen is when we win, people say, put 11 good players and they will find a way to win, when we score good goals they put it down to the players being so good and nothing tactically.

We have a Wolves performance and its Ole's fault, he is tactically inept, Ole ball is crap, bla bla bla.

At least have the same energy for both, if you criticise Ole for one game, you have to praise him when we win.

I saw somewhere where on twitter Rants and his crew saying Ronaldo is finished so I thought I go have a look at it. They are the most disgusting and disrespectful bunch of fans, I watched it for 10 minutes and the crap coming out of their mouth is special.

The 'individual brilliance' thing is what annoys me the most, as though all the top teams haven't had players who won games through moments of individual brilliance.

No successful team are purely a tactics system, all cogs in a machine working perfectly and programmed by a genius in the background. It's complete nonsense.

Barca ten years ago were the best team in the world, and that was in huge part due to the tactics Pep put in place but take out 2 or 3 individuals and their associated brilliance and what do they actually achieve?

I can already see now that if we achieve any success this season the "individual brilliance" card will be played by the usual hacks.

To win you need a good manager, yes, but you also need great players who can pull amazing moments out of the bag without specific direction.

 

[romufc]

The 'individual brilliance' thing is what annoys me the most, as though all the top teams haven't had players who won games through moments of individual brilliance.

No successful team are purely a tactics system, all cogs in a machine working perfectly and programmed by a genius in the background. It's complete nonsense.

Barca ten years ago were the best team in the world, and that was in huge part due to the tactics Pep put in place but take out 2 or 3 individuals and their associated brilliance and what do they actually achieve?

I can already see now that if we achieve any success this season the "individual brilliance" card will be played by the usual hacks.

To win you need a good manager, yes, but you also need great players who can pull amazing moments out of the bag without specific direction.

The Greatest manager ever also had players with individual ability, that is the reason they get paid alot and signed for alot of money.

Ronaldo was one of the reasons we won so many titles in the 06 era along with other players with individual ability.

Exactly, they had the best player who could score goals from almost anywhere to pull out results, get equalisers. They had the best midfield in that era. If you swapped them for mid table players Pep would not have won the lot.

Its both, you need a blend of both to win things. The unfortunate thing is, I can see the players card being played too if we win something, no one will credit the manager.

 

[Godfather]

One thing is for sure. Ole was backed. Heavily. He'll have to show what he's made of this season and get us trophies with that squad at hand. Hope he will.

 

[justsomebloke]

The 'individual brilliance' thing is what annoys me the most, as though all the top teams haven't had players who won games through moments of individual brilliance.

No successful team are purely a tactics system, all cogs in a machine working perfectly and programmed by a genius in the background. It's complete nonsense.

Barca ten years ago were the best team in the world, and that was in huge part due to the tactics Pep put in place but take out 2 or 3 individuals and their associated brilliance and what do they actually achieve?

I can already see now that if we achieve any success this season the "individual brilliance" card will be played by the usual hacks.

To win you need a good manager, yes, but you also need great players who can pull amazing moments out of the bag without specific direction.

Just look at Liverpool last season. How much did Klopp's system help them when they were missing some of their best players through injury? And lest someone imagine that a perceived clear system at least gives you more predictability against weaker teams, Liverpool dropped almost twice as many points against lower half sides last season as we did, while they did a little better than us against top half sides. Which would appear to indicate that they have a style of play that is hard to make work effectively against teams that primarily defend, unless they have top individual quality available.

(Interestingly, Chelsea after Tuchel took over also dropped points against lower-half sides significantly more frequently than we did last season. But the implications of that are mainly other than what's being discussed here.)

A top club's system is built to maximise the impact of individually brilliant players (which is by definition what your squad extensively consists of, if you're a top club), and doesn't provide a subsitute for such players. You can fit the system to the players you have, or, if you have the time and resources, acquire the players you need to fit the system. But the players and the system are really indivisible, and if you get a lot of great individual performances that aren't offset by there also being a number of poor individual performances in the same game, then that generally shows you've got an effective system. In fact, that is more or less the definition of what "an effective system" means.

 

[Chairman Steve]

I am hoping now that he has a considerable wealth of attacking talent at his disposal that hes going to be a bit more active in the subs department.

If Ronaldo, Sancho or Greenwood aren’t working in a hypothetical scenario and we need a winner, then he could throw on Rashford, Cavani or even Martial, either to replace them like for like or just add more attackers on the pitch and risk it more.