David Moyes West Ham Manager (Again)

R'hllor

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Moyes was too good for a significant proportion of the modern, spoilt fanbase.

Sir Alex knew exactly what he was doing appointing Moyes, and had groomed him for years. We are talking since his Preston days. I think it says a lot that even when he has equivocated, Fergie has always said he did not make a mistake appointing Moyes.

The squad was in a real mess when Moyes came in. They were champions, sure, but this was arguably Sir Alex's best achievement. So many players were past it and the young players where not of the required standard.

Had we trusted Sir Bobby and Sir Alex and given Moyes time to fix the problems we would be much further on now. If you actually remember Everton under Moyes, at the end they were playing very good football. Hopefully he can continue to do well, as the constant sniping he gets from some Man Utd fans is ridiculous. His background and work ethic was very similar to Sir Matt Busby's, and we would have been smart to follow the judgement of Sir Alex rather than falling for the corrupt company line from that snake Woodward, who bungled that whole first major window before overcorrecting and splurging like a drunk sailor under LVG.
This must be the fastest like in history of CAF
 

mu4c_20le

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He's an excellent manager for a club like Everton or West Ham but the United job was simply too big for him. There's no shame in that and I'm happy to see him doing well again.
Why? I mean, he was pretty arrogant when he was here. What makes him so special that some of you are actually happy to see him do well? Was it just because he got shit on during his time here?
 

diarm

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Why? I mean, he was pretty arrogant when he was here. What makes him so special that some of you are actually happy to see him do well? Was it just because he got shit on during his time here?
Because I thought the job had broken him. Any arrogance was just a coping mechanism for the poor guy while he fought from drowning in a role he couldn't handle.

When he went to Spain and failed again, I really thought the United role had killed his career. On a purely human level, it's good to see a guy rebuild himself after that.
 

mu4c_20le

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Because I thought the job had broken him. Any arrogance was just a coping mechanism for the poor guy while he fought from drowning in a role he couldn't handle.

When he went to Spain and failed again, I really thought the United role had killed his career. On a purely human level, it's good to see a guy rebuild himself after that.
Fair enough, I had some sympathy too when he was at Sociedad. He seems fine though, these Scots are far stronger than we give them credit for.
 

BaggiesBoy93

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I'd back West Ham to finish in the top 8 this season, most probably 8th.
 

stevoc

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He didn't offer him it formally but he sounded him out. Pep had already accepted the Bayern job anyway. Ancelotti and Fergie are close friends I doubt Ancelotti would lie about being offered it.
Um I never actually mentioned Ancelotti?

Though I've never actually seen the ancelotti quotes.

Yeah as I said he may have been sounding Pep out for the future.
 

stevoc

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You're right regarding Guardiola never being offered the job, but I definitely read something a while back (as in around Moyes getting sacked) that I feel was also backed up by some other sources, that basically said the club had been keeping a shortlist of potential successors for a number of years and were updating it at intervals as seasons passed. We've had such managerial turmoil since that my attempts to find it again have failed as there are a ton of articles about us replacing our manager even from this summer.

At the time Fergie announced his retirement, Guardiola and Ancelotti were definitely above Moyes on the shortlist and I'm fairly sure Mourinho and Klopp were too. There were maybe even a couple of other managers ahead of him. Obviously Guardiola had pledged his future to Bayern, Ancelotti to Madrid, Mourinho was on the verge of returning to Chelsea, and Klopp didn't want to leave Dortmund at that time.
Under Gill I know there was always talk about a short list of managers and that they would need to have title winning and CL experience etc.

But when Ferguson actually stood down all that seemed to go out the window. And the club just allowed SAF to choose his successor.

Let's also remember in his book Fergie said he was advising Moyes not to renew his Everton in February 2013 so that it would be in his words 'easier' for United. This was before he told the club he was retiring in March so I think that give us an idea what Fergusons thinking was.

I doubt we'll ever know the whole truth on the matter as in hindsight the whole fiasco is embarrassing for Ferguson and the club.
 

Marwood

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Pleased for him.

Whatever his credentials for the United job that last title winning team being on the verge of collapse(just take a look at where most of those players ended up two years later) is always glossed over.
 

stevoc

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You have to take his time at Everton Preston and now West Ham into account. He can build teams that do well if given enough time and requires suitability, he's not a quick fix guy or going to quickly command respect from players in Spain. Sorry Sociedad was never going to work out in the short term and it was well said at the time Sunderland were going to crash out of the PL, there's not many who could've rescued that situation and would need a totally different character to have a chance, it was a hiding to nothing both times for Moyes.

Clearly not suitable for United and crumbled, the job and expectations are too big. His Everton record was good overall but it's not what United need, he had no away wins at big clubs, no trophies, just a dogged PL team in the top half or top quarter.
Yeah you would be hard pressed back then to identify a PL manager less suited for the United job. I'm sure there were a few but not many. Moyes at United was only ever going to end one way.
 

Alex99

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Under Gill I know there was always talk about a short list of managers and that they would need to have title winning and CL experience etc.

But when Ferguson actually stood down all that seemed to go out the window. And the club just allowed SAF to choose his successor.

Let's also remember in his book Fergie said he was advising Moyes not to renew his Everton in February 2013 so that it would be in his words 'easier' for United. This was before he told the club he was retiring in March so I think that give us an idea what Fergusons thinking was.

I doubt we'll ever know the whole truth on the matter as in hindsight the whole fiasco is embarrassing for Ferguson and the club.
Fergie was sounding a number of managers out before he'd told the club, as you've just been discussing regarding Guardiola. He spoke to Guardiola about his plans and asked to be kept in the loop but if I remember correctly, Guardiola didn't consider that Fergie might be retiring and accepted the offer from Bayern when it came.

I'm pretty sure he says in his book that he'd made his mind up about retiring pretty much the moment he found out Cathy's sister had died, which was the end of 2012, so there was a window where he contacted at least three on the shortlist, if not the entire list (however long it was).

I can only assume we'd have ended up with Allardyce had Moyes renewed with Everton and been deemed unaffordable.
 

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Delighted for Moyesey. A stand-up guy whom had several qualities necessary to manage a major football club like United but probably lacked that killer instinct and that total, utmost self-belief a manager requires to become successful on the biggest stage. There’s plenty of stories of his dithering in the transfer market here (Thiago, Fabregas, Kroos etc.) and he has to accept responsibility for that.

Taking over from Ferguson would be a challenge for any manager and when you accompany that with a squad about to enter transition - as well as having several delicate situations to sort out involving highly-influential players (Rooney’s transfer request, Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra nearing the end etc.), it was a nigh-on impossible task for Moyes. Also, for those criticising his decision to cut Phelan and Meulensteen, he was 100% correct to do so. Neither have pulled up any trees in their subsequent jobs and Moyes felt he needed to do things his way from the get-go.

After a couple of poor club choices from Moyes post-United, he has vindicated himself in a massive way at West Ham. He has transformed the mentality of the club and has made some shrewd signings and positional switches which have borne fruit. I’m very interested to see how they get on this season again and I continually wish him well there.
 

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Moyes isn't a coach, but he's very good at delegation. His scouting department at Everton was very, very good. If there's one good thing to say about him, he's not afraid to hire specialists in key areas and leave the delegation to them. This is why Sir Alex liked him. Sir Alex was the ultimate pragmatist, always changing assistant managers, coaches, specialists in order to evolve with the climate of how football itself does.
 

stevoc

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Fergie was sounding a number of managers out before he'd told the club, as you've just been discussing regarding Guardiola. He spoke to Guardiola about his plans and asked to be kept in the loop but if I remember correctly, Guardiola didn't consider that Fergie might be retiring and accepted the offer from Bayern when it came.

I'm pretty sure he says in his book that he'd made his mind up about retiring pretty much the moment he found out Cathy's sister had died, which was the end of 2012, so there was a window where he contacted at least three on the shortlist, if not the entire list (however long it was).

I can only assume we'd have ended up with Allardyce had Moyes renewed with Everton and been deemed unaffordable.
It was discussed on the previous page but SAF didn't know he was retiring when he met Pep. His sister in law died after that around christmas I believe.

According to the reports I remember he spoke to Ancelotti in April 2013 after telling Moyes not to renew. So make of it what you will, maybe he just wanted Moyes in his pocket as back up option in case he couldn't get a bigger name. Maybe he was the first choice all along, as I said we'll probably never know for sure.

Personally I believe Moyes was first choice as I don't think Ferguson would have spent so many years bemoaning the lack of opportunities for British managers at top clubs and then proceed to choose a foreign manager when he was in the position to select his own successor.
 

Fussball13251

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People simping for David Moyes, I've really seen it all.

Nobody wants Moyes. We just simply don't understand the bashing. Ole is probably just a bit better at signing players. The vast majority know that Ole isn't good enough to beat the top managers for trophies.
 

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So Fergie lacks common sense? You'd trust what you know based off nothing over the opinion of Alex Ferguson, who personally knows Moyes very well? Clown.
To be fair around the same time he hired Moyes he said Phil Jones could be the best player in Uniteds history, claimed that Nick Powell will be a top player who would replace Paul Scholes and compared Jesse Lingard to Jean Tigana.

So even the great man made mistakes in his assessments of people.
 

bond19821982

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Moyes is a good coach just not perfect for a top 4 club but definitely good for a top 4 - 8 team who will punch above the weights. That was exactly our problem. We needed a Jose (mentality wise) but we got an inexperienced guy. Our team was nothing like a Moyesie team.

Westham is perfect for him. It's the same Everton template but with better quality now. Soucek is handling the Fellaini role (season when he was signed) , 2 brilliant full backs, a technically brilliant hardworking attacking midfield trio , a brilliant DM in Rice and a good striker.

Happy for him. Deserves some accolades after all the abuses he got. I do back them to finish top 6 again.
 

Fussball13251

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Has there actually been any "bashing" though?

A little.

Man United just before Fergie retired were overrated. The current Leicester team is far better than that United squad. But that is what a Klopp-like manager brings.

When Klopp took over Liverpool they were a mess but still played some of the best football I had seen from a Liverpool team in years. You knew that he was gunna win the league. Pep regards him as the best in the world.

Based on real ability Rashford would score 20+ a season under Klopp.
 
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stevoc

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A little.
Can you point any of this bashing out?

Man United just before Fergie retired were overrated. The current Leicester team is far better than that United squad. But that is what a Klopp-like manager brings.

When Klopp took over Liverpool they were a mess but still played some of the best football I had seen from a Liverpool team in years. You knew that he was gunna win the league. Pep regards him as the best in the world.

Based on real ability Rashford would score 20+ a season under Klopp.
No, they're not better let alone far better, sorry that is nonsense.

The bashing and disrespect shown towards the 2013 squad as an attempt to defend Moyes shambolic tenure is pathetic. It was a good team nearing the end of it's cycle, average teams don't win the league or rack up 89-90 points finishes 2-3 seasons in a row. Yes it needed surgery but there was still a lot of talent and experience in that squad. Ferguson was a genius not a magician, no manager beyond a fluke season can coach an average team to win a league title no matter how good a manager they are.
 
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JebelSherif

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After a couple of poor club choices from Moyes post-United, he has vindicated himself in a massive way at West Ham. He has transformed the mentality of the club and has made some shrewd signings and positional switches which have borne fruit. I’m very interested to see how they get on this season again and I continually wish him well there.
Including in the Carabao Cup?
 

sugar_kane

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A little.

Man United just before Fergie retired were overrated. The current Leicester team is far better than that United squad. But that is what a Klopp-like manager brings.

When Klopp took over Liverpool they were a mess but still played some of the best football I had seen from a Liverpool team in years. You knew that he was gunna win the league. Pep regards him as the best in the world.

Based on real ability Rashford would score 20+ a season under Klopp.
Is that the same Rashford who has scored 20+ for his two full seasons under Ole?
 

stevoc

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Sir Alex advised Moyes throughout his career (he even offered him the assistant manager job when he was at Preston), and Moyes studied under McLean and Smith. In fact, he says himself:

"The biggest mentor to me was Walter Smith. Walter had been my Scottish youth team manager. I always felt that I could phone Walter; as I got older, I would phone Sir Alex."

The Scottish coaches were all friendly and would look out for each other. Its no coincidence that Fergie and McLean coached the New Firm teams, that Smith played under McLean and that Walter was Sir Alex's assistant.
So where did he study as a coach/manager under McClean and Smith?

Walter Smith was his coach at Scotland u8. Was he coaching him as a player at the time or grooming a teenage boy to be a manager in the future?

It's all a massive stretch, and even if he had been groomed by these 3 managers he hasn't replicated any of their successes.
 

LawmanMan

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So where did he study as a coach/manager under McClean and Smith?

Walter Smith was his coach at Scotland u8. Was he coaching him as a player at the time or grooming a teenage boy to be a manager in the future?

It's all a massive stretch, and even if he had been groomed by these 3 managers he hasn't replicated any of their successes.
At the SFA coaching centre in Largs. Its really no big secret!

And he finished nine points behind Ole last season despite his total spending at West Ham coming in at 57 million.

You say he didn't replicate their successes, but success isn't just measured in trophies. You can only go so high on lesser resources. He won manager of the year three times at Everton, which underlines how good he was there.
 
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LawmanMan

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Can you point any of this bashing out?



No, they're not better let alone far better, sorry that is nonsense.

The bashing and disrespect shown towards the 2013 squad as an attempt to defend Moyes shambolic tenure is pathetic. It was a good team nearing the end of it's cycle, average teams don't win the league or rack up 89-90 points finishes 2-3 seasons in a row. Yes it needed surgery but there was still a lot of talent and experience in that squad. Ferguson was a genius not a magician, no manager beyond a fluke season can coach an average team to win a league title no matter how good a manager they are.
Nothing to do with disrespect. That squad winning was a major achievement. But Scholes retired, everyone was a year older, Giggs was semi-retired and RVP was constantly injured (like he was usually during his career). Van Persie papered over a lot of cracks the previous season.
 

stevoc

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And he finished nine points behind Ole last season despite his total spending at West Ham coming in at 57 million.
Quite the achievement, he can put that in his trophy cabinet along with the coming 4th in 2005 Trophy.

You say he didn't replicate their successes, but success isn't just measured in trophies. You can only go so high on lesser resources.
Well he managed one of the biggest clubs in the world and had huge resources there. But he didn't take advantage of them and used them poorly.

He won manager of the year three times at Everton, which underlines how good he was there.
 

stevoc

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Nothing to do with disrespect. That squad winning was a major achievement. But Scholes retired, everyone was a year older, Giggs was semi-retired and RVP was constantly injured (like he was usually during his career). Van Persie papered over a lot of cracks the previous season.
It is disrespectful though and it's pathetic.
 

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Who's he proving wrong by finishing 5-10th as usual? He'll never win a trophy or achieve more than that
Is it surprising about a club with exponentially fewer resources struggles to overcome the richer clubs? In your mind is struggling to overcome the dispararities a sign that the manager isn't good enough somehow?

I love how people (not you) talk about how Moyes lacked the "mentality" to manage Man Utd. I mean, if one avoids social media and internet forums (which I imagine Moyes doesn't partake in), or national press (easily ignored), what exactly is the difference between the pressure of winning at United and say, Sunderland? Both are win or bust. Both matchgoing fanbases are vocal when things are bad (actually, Sunderland is a lot worse), and both sets of local press are brutal.

I just think a lot of fans of certain clubs have an inflated sense of pretty much everything.
 

stevoc

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Is it surprising about a club with exponentially fewer resources struggles to overcome the richer clubs? In your mind is struggling to overcome the dispararities a sign that the manager isn't good enough somehow?

I love how people (not you) talk about how Moyes lacked the "mentality" to manage Man Utd. I mean, if one avoids social media and internet forums (which I imagine Moyes doesn't partake in), or national press (easily ignored), what exactly is the difference between the pressure of winning at United and say, Sunderland? Both are win or bust. Both matchgoing fanbases are vocal when things are bad (actually, Sunderland is a lot worse), and both sets of local press are brutal.

I just think a lot of fans of certain clubs have an inflated sense of pretty much everything.
He obviously didn't though. He crumbled under the pressure during his year at United and looked like he visibly aged 5-10 years in one. To be honest Moyes might not have agreed at the time but Ed Woodward did him a huge favour taking him out of that pressure.
 

Foxbatt

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No he never was good enough to manage a huge club. As Rene told him, Everton is a river boat compared to United which was an ocean going liner. He may do well at a medium sized club like Everton and West Ham and now is on top of the League now.
 

LawmanMan

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No he never was good enough to manage a huge club. As Rene told him, Everton is a river boat compared to United which was an ocean going liner. He may do well at a medium sized club like Everton and West Ham and now is on top of the League now.
Look, Everton is a very big club. They actually had more league titles than we did when Ferguson won his first. We were just lucky to be the side at the top of the tree when the game was transformed by Sky.

One of the major differences is how our board focused on building up the business side. Other teams lagged in that regard, and it gave us a big advantage. But to talk of Everton as if they are just some middling mid-table club is disrespectful.
 

Foxbatt

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Look, Everton is a very big club. They actually had more league titles than we did when Ferguson won his first. We were just lucky to be the side at the top of the tree when the game was transformed by Sky.

One of the major differences is how our board focused on building up the business side. Other teams lagged in that regard, and it gave us a big advantage. But to talk of Everton as if they are just some middling mid-table club is disrespectful.
Everton may have been a big club. So was Preston North End at some time in history.
Everton is not a big club in the World. When anyone considers a big club in the PL now, it used to be United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea ( After Roman). Now it's City, Liverpool, United, Chelsea,Spurs and Arsenal. That's why they were included in the Super League. It's not disrespectful to anyone to say that Everton is not among the big clubs. Leicester City has won more in the PL than Everton.
 

dannyrhinos89

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Just seen Antonio got a red.

good news for us if he’s banned for our next prem game on Sunday.
 

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Everton may have been a big club. So was Preston North End at some time in history.
Everton is not a big club in the World. When anyone considers a big club in the PL now, it used to be United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea ( After Roman). Now it's City, Liverpool, United, Chelsea,Spurs and Arsenal. That's why they were included in the Super League. It's not disrespectful to anyone to say that Everton is not among the big clubs. Leicester City has won more in the PL than Everton.
Sky invented football in '92
 

Teja

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Sky invented football in '92
I mean if you want to go back arbitrary lengths of time, Leeds, Villa, Blackburn etc. etc. are all "big" clubs. No reasonable person would name Everton and Villa amongst the biggest clubs in England.