Sounds about right. I have a feeling we'll be reminded of these statistics if/when Madrid eventually get their man.
De Gea - Mourinho's Get-out-of-jail-free card
- Thread starter B20
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That's absolutely not the point he is trying to make though.
If we look at the xGA over the course of the last 4 seasons, United's defense has actually notably declined this year. It was best last season (slightly better than the two before) and has taken quite a dip this season.
(Interesting point in favor of the validity of the expected goals stats: last season City conceded almost ten goals more than expected. In other words, as everybody watching football can confirm, Claudio Bravo is shit.)
(Interesting point in favor of the validity of the expected goals stats: last season City conceded almost ten goals more than expected. In other words, as everybody watching football can confirm, Claudio Bravo is shit.)
Fact he's a liverpool fan is neither here nor there. Good poster who is making some valid points here.. though I slightly disagree with the VDS comment, but overall get where you're coming from.
Lacking cohesion in defence and attack it seems. Feels like we are plodding our way to results.
Lacking cohesion in defence and attack it seems. Feels like we are plodding our way to results.
Yeah we're not playing great right now and we're not peak Atletico standards at the back. But we're also not THAT bad either. Last night Sevilla had about 24 shots at goal from some silly distances. Bumping up De Gea's stats.
So Mourinho did sacrifice attacking threat for a solid 0-0 away from home in Europe. His keeper made one excellent save all night. Sounds good to me.
Every manager needs that world class player to make the difference at the top level. Doesn't have to be Kane either. Spurs actually look half the attacking threat without Eriksen as well.
He's is on course to smash his clean sheet record in a season. On 19 already so under Mourinho we're scoring more & De Gea is conceding less, even less than under LvG, considering the boring football we played under him.
The reason DDG grabs all the headlines is because there was nothing happening at the other end, was the hand/shoulder ball not spotted lastnight and Lukaku scored he would be crowned MOTM.
Matic a downgrade on the job Herrera was doing last season?
Are you srs? I've always thought of you as a United fan.
Hold on, I confused myself there - the expected goals against is nearly unchanged this season from last, but the actual goals conceded has dropped considerably - i.e., DDG is performing even better than last year.
Edit: dammit, still didn't get it right
- the numbers I compared were of course for full 38 games last season and only 27 for this season so far. So United's defense has deteriorated at this point, but de Gea is making up for it.
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Although this is true, I also agree with the OP's argument.
If you go with a defensive strategy, then the aim is to minimise the number of goal-scoring chances given to your opponent. Therefore if you concede plenty of goal-scoring chances, you haven't successfully executed your strategy.
Sometimes Mourinho's defensive strategy works and we restrict the opposition to relatively few chances. But often our opponents do create plenty of chances despite our defensive approach, and then we end up relying on De Gea to save us (as demonstrated by the Expected Goals stats above).
So on the whole, I don't think Mourinho's defensive strategy has been very effective.
Yes!
You're not wrong imho. Yesterday wasn't exactly a defensive masterclass. It was clenched butt cheeks and praying De Gea would be the wall in goal he usually is. however, if United win at home, who cares.
Awful post. Opposition insight is often quite worthwhile, this isn't Bluemoon.
De Gea saved LvG much more than he has saved Mourinho, backed by De Gea's back to back PotY awards. He didn't win it last year. I don't think he'll win it this year either.
Under LvG in that second season, it felt like it was every single game De Gea was relied on. This season, I'd wager that the games where we have been truly reliant on out-of-this-world saves made by De Gea would be in single figures, and I struggle to remember a game last season where his heroics won it for us on a regular basis. Last night he made one very good reactive save to push it over, but it was also right at him. He would have had to dive out of the way of it for it to go in. Good reactions to paw it to safety, but he's made better saves in his career. It would be poor goalkeeping if it goes in, because it was a very poor finish.
The defence certainly needs looking at, but the centre back pairing was purely circumstantial. We played the only two who were fit. If everyone was fit, would Smalling and Lindelof be the starting pair? Bailly would be one of them for certain, and the other place is well up for grabs. Rojo was very good pre ACL injury, and Bailly has been out for a long time, two things Mourinho can't really be blamed for. Smalling is dependable, and Jones is very good when fit, it's too early to write of Lindelof but I'm not too sure about him yet. There are good individuals in there, it's just about making a first choice pair that works, and keeping that pair fit. Mourinho seems to love a centre back pair that plays every game together, but it's something he's not been able to do here, and that no manager has been able to do at United since about 2008.
I don't really see an issue overall. He's arguably the best goalkeeper in the world. I'm fine with him being relied on. If you have the best goalscorer in the world, you rely on him to score goals. Best shot stopper is relied on to stop shots. Whilst we're relying on him a bit more this season than last season, it's still nowhere near the level it was in LvG's second season, particularly from December onwards.
Under LvG in that second season, it felt like it was every single game De Gea was relied on. This season, I'd wager that the games where we have been truly reliant on out-of-this-world saves made by De Gea would be in single figures, and I struggle to remember a game last season where his heroics won it for us on a regular basis. Last night he made one very good reactive save to push it over, but it was also right at him. He would have had to dive out of the way of it for it to go in. Good reactions to paw it to safety, but he's made better saves in his career. It would be poor goalkeeping if it goes in, because it was a very poor finish.
The defence certainly needs looking at, but the centre back pairing was purely circumstantial. We played the only two who were fit. If everyone was fit, would Smalling and Lindelof be the starting pair? Bailly would be one of them for certain, and the other place is well up for grabs. Rojo was very good pre ACL injury, and Bailly has been out for a long time, two things Mourinho can't really be blamed for. Smalling is dependable, and Jones is very good when fit, it's too early to write of Lindelof but I'm not too sure about him yet. There are good individuals in there, it's just about making a first choice pair that works, and keeping that pair fit. Mourinho seems to love a centre back pair that plays every game together, but it's something he's not been able to do here, and that no manager has been able to do at United since about 2008.
I don't really see an issue overall. He's arguably the best goalkeeper in the world. I'm fine with him being relied on. If you have the best goalscorer in the world, you rely on him to score goals. Best shot stopper is relied on to stop shots. Whilst we're relying on him a bit more this season than last season, it's still nowhere near the level it was in LvG's second season, particularly from December onwards.
Valencia looks a shadow of the player he was last year. Season too far for him I think.
Looking at the statistics, there's been a decline in a few areas. Our average possession and pass accuracy are both down on last season. We're also making 27% fewer tackles and 29% fewer interceptions while also conceding 23% more shots on our goal.
He's made quite a lot of saves. But it hasn't been like last season or those gone by where he's made wonder save after another. I remember one against Stoke, one against Liverpool and two against Arsenal. Otherwise, I can't remember many other games where he's saved us points. He's like our Messi/Ronaldo and we expect him to make saves as they're expected to score every game. Even yesterdays save, on first viewing, it looked incredible but that's a simple save for our Dave.
Wierd the amount of times i see our goalkeeper strength used as some kind of slight.
I couldn't care less whether one of our defenders stops the attack or the goalkeeper. It's his job and he does it well.
De Gea is no more our get of jail card as Kane or Salah are for their respective teams.
I couldn't care less whether one of our defenders stops the attack or the goalkeeper. It's his job and he does it well.
De Gea is no more our get of jail card as Kane or Salah are for their respective teams.
OP is generally correct.
Mourinho should thank his lucky stars he has Dave in goal.
Mourinho should thank his lucky stars he has Dave in goal.
Nonsense of a thread.
I cant even remember a big performance from David between Arsenal and last night.
I love the fact he's so good that fans mistake good saves for worldies but he's not carrying us for feck sake.
Sarah is a get out of jail free card, Kane etc. Not our goalkeeper.
I cant even remember a big performance from David between Arsenal and last night.
I love the fact he's so good that fans mistake good saves for worldies but he's not carrying us for feck sake.
Sarah is a get out of jail free card, Kane etc. Not our goalkeeper.
@B20 I'm not sure how you expect defensive cohesion at United when there hasn't been a regular fit back 4 all season..
On top of that United have the best defensive record in England and equal to Barca in Europe. That's without the aforementioned consistency and minus the club's best centre half Eric Bailly.
No one is happy with the club's current form but people have short memories. The season didn't start when we got beaten by Spurs.
On top of that United have the best defensive record in England and equal to Barca in Europe. That's without the aforementioned consistency and minus the club's best centre half Eric Bailly.
No one is happy with the club's current form but people have short memories. The season didn't start when we got beaten by Spurs.
This implies De Gea is making insane, unparalleled, game changing saves in every other minute of every other game when in reality he's largely just been doing what a goalkeeper is supposed to do over the course of a season as well as pulling out worldies every now and again. I mean it's only natural for a Liverpool fan to see what Dave is doing and feel hard done by it when you consider the tripe they have between the sticks but that's where the discussion should end.
Only Barça have kept more clean sheets in Europe while we have won every single game that we've scored first in.
We lay second in the league and are currently in a strong position go reach the last 8 in Europe.
You cannot say it isn't working. It's the attack letting us down, not our defence.
All with our best defender missing most of the season with Jones picking up injuries every other week.
Is there another side that can play their 3rd and 5th choice centrehalves for a game and not have it recognised anywhere?
we're just shit, basically
Defintely degea can save mourinho's job.
Awful post. I hardly care what opposition fans think about us. This is United forum.
It's not a cult either.
Im all for praising DDG but the keeper is there to do that, thats his job to make saves.
Stopped United losing two or three nil last night against a very average team. Happens too often.
Agree with the OP. The best defenses are known for having great keepers and also preventing chances from occurring.
You can't tell me that we plan to concede many shots on goal just because we have DDG between the posts. It's not a sustainable strategy over the course of the season to be this negative, and yet be so shitty at preventing opposing teams from penetrating our half at will. If we're so useless at parking the bus (like Chelsea did against Barcelona), then why do it at the expense of our attack?
You can't tell me that we plan to concede many shots on goal just because we have DDG between the posts. It's not a sustainable strategy over the course of the season to be this negative, and yet be so shitty at preventing opposing teams from penetrating our half at will. If we're so useless at parking the bus (like Chelsea did against Barcelona), then why do it at the expense of our attack?
Indeed. But the point is he continues to save us thanks to his ability. If we didn't have him in goal - we would have finished much lower in the league each year. He has been the massive difference.
All these stats are misleading and quite frankly worthless.
Last night was a good example of how close we were to losing. If they had a decent striker who would have headed in anywhere but right at DDG, we would have lost the game. And, let's be honest, would you see us scoring after conceding (for an away game)?
The attack is a mess. We have an individualistic Sanchez trying to do it all on his own. Our best CM is out of form/pissed off/sick/injured. Our sole DM is gassed and lethargic. We have two fullbacks who can't cross.
This. Also...
I personally believe that Bailey, Jones, and Rojo, are all better defenders than Smalling and Lindelof... but none of them are fully fit.
&
Sevilla have an incredible home record, and we stopped them scoring. They can go through if they score in Manchester, but they probably aren't that confident of doing so.
This is so true. That's why we need to offer De Gea whatever he wants for renewing his contract with us. I wouldn't mind giving him 500k+ a week to be honest, as he did most of the "defensive" work for us anyway.
There isn't a better way to judge our defence performances by..you know...recognising that our fantastic defensive record is a by product of that approach.
We gave up a chance against perennial European winners Sevilla, who have lost 1 in 31 homes games, in the last 16 of the CL.
What. A. Shocker.
Is there another fanbase that laments their keeper making great saves like ours?
I expect it from the approach most of all really. When you go balls deep for clean sheets like that, you should be shutting up shop more convincingly.
He's gotten good results so far, no doubt. But some of that is irrespective of his work.
My point with this is really more to elucidate mourinho's input in all of this. De Gea is part of the team and if he saves your bacon, it's because the team is good enough to do it. It's more when I see comments crediting Mourinho's strategy for the result that my lights are blinking. I don't think any manager should be banking on their keeper to bail them out (not that I think he is, per se. But he is profiting from it).
There is a relation between the defence first mentality and the attack not working though.
Honestly, I think it's the United fans on this thread who need to grow up and accept a fairly reasonable reasonable post from a rival fan. Or does Mourinho criticism only count when it's levied by a United fan?
Messi- barca''s get out of jail card
Ronaldo- zidane''s get out of jail card
salah- klopps get out of jail card
kdb - city''s get out of jail card
hazard- conte''s get out of jail card
kane- poch''s get out of jail card
But ofcourse it's only DE gea who is saving jose. And if a person is realistic they would realise the only game where DE gea had to really make numerous saves was against arsenal. DE gea is our keeper and he is here to make saves. I never here other fans say where Liverpool would have been without salah. And it's funny this thread is written by a Liverpool fan.
Ronaldo- zidane''s get out of jail card
salah- klopps get out of jail card
kdb - city''s get out of jail card
hazard- conte''s get out of jail card
kane- poch''s get out of jail card
But ofcourse it's only DE gea who is saving jose. And if a person is realistic they would realise the only game where DE gea had to really make numerous saves was against arsenal. DE gea is our keeper and he is here to make saves. I never here other fans say where Liverpool would have been without salah. And it's funny this thread is written by a Liverpool fan.
This is my last post so i can't be replying you after this.
I don't think people are upset that DDG made a great save. At least, i'm not. However, for a team that relies on defensive solidity like us, we are letting the opponents have a tons of shot at us. Yes, they are some shots which are statistics shots and it doesn't mean much but there are actually quite a few which weren't and should be looked at.
Our fantastic defensive performance is the product of DDG's heroics. Take him away and we would have probably shipped in another 10 goals and definitely won't be sitting at second in the EPL. Now, i'm not saying is wrong to have a world class keeper at hand, but can you honestly tell me you don't feel the nerves watching us getting attacked with Smalling as one of the CB?
On the game against Sevilla, i'm not expecting us to dominate them as i'm a fan of defensive, counter attacking football. However after spending so much money, i expect us to at least be able to string 3 passes together, make accurate passes when not pressed and threaten their goal occasionally. Last night, none of those were present.
David De Gea could save a PDF file on a calculator!