Decades Draft Tournament : AldoRaine18 vs Brwned

[Moby]

You're underrating Neeskens, Beckenbauer will help out with Zico's runs and I don't think your setup is anything like total football either, it's just the brilliant footballer Cruyff playing as a wide playmaker.

Not really man, I like Neeskens a lot but he's not the man who will keep Zico quiet. As for Kaiser, he has Muller on one side, Zico on the other once Neeskens gets outnumbered which is quite likely.

No I'm not playing total football, never claimed that but the fact that Cruyff is best played in a free role as he was the best total footballer and easily capable of taking any position at will to hurt the opposition is valid and that is my strongest point in attack. He's not playing wide at all, neither is he just a playmaker. He was an unstoppable dribbler who would take a whole defense out with ease and was a great finisher as well, apart from his unmatched creativity and vision.

It takes us back to the point that Neeskens is heavily outnumbered when not in possession that too against top quality players and will struggle forcing others to help him out, which is only the back 4 as he's getting nothing from the rest of the midfield in turn creating more and more space. Beckenbauer coming out to help him is the scenario I was imagining, which creates space for Muller. Stam was pretty weak against players great on the turn (read how Inzaghi tormented him in 99) and Muller is one of the best doing that.

 

[antohan]

Agree with RI, Brwned should have played Thiago Silva and moved Beckenbauer to midfield instead of Zidane.

 

[Cutch]

Bump

 

[Annahnomoss]

Agree with RI, Brwned should have played Thiago Silva and moved Beckenbauer to midfield instead of Zidane.

I agree with this. I think it is quite clear that he went for names over the actual strategy but that in itself is a strategy in these drafts so GL to him.

 

[NM]

I agree with this. I think it is quite clear that he went for names over the actual strategy but that in itself is a strategy in these drafts so GL to him.

This is not Brwned's team. He just took it on

 

[Brwned]

I agree with this. I think it is quite clear that he went for names over the actual strategy but that in itself is a strategy in these drafts so GL to him.

Yes, instead of pretending to be some sort of tactical guru with a complex gameplan I attempted to re-create a side which played the best football the Euro's have ever seen. And of course it seems the resident German - the one who knows more about the players in this matchup than possibly anyone else in this thread - thinks it's a viable strategy, but that's irrelevant of course.

Why do you think that will happen? Beckenbauer was incredibly disciplined whenever the game was important. He was brilliant as a centerback in 72 and happily stepped aside and let Netzer run the show, because he always did what's best for the team. That 72 team worked because Beckenbauer at his best was an incredible defender more than anything else, his reading of the game was brilliant, his positioning was flawless. Not once mentioned Brwned in his tactics that Beckenbauer will contribute in attack and with the players infront of him, Beckenbauer surely won't get annoyed that they don't create enough. That would be the only reason for him to run forward.

Agreed. The only thing that would make Beckenbauer abandon his position in a game like this is either boredom at having nothing to do or frustration at the men in front of him not doing enough. He had no problems deferring to Netzer throughout that tournament and it'll of course be the same here, particularly with him relishing the constant battles against Zico, Cruyff and Muller.

At the other end you have Garrincha - the best 1v1 player in the draft, possibly the best of all-time - up against the weakest player on the pitch. Once he beats him he'll do what he'll just be drilling those balls low across the box for Romario and Ronaldo to gobble up. This is how Brazil scored their first two goals in the '58 final and Romario and Ronaldo are unquestionably some of the most prolific goalscorers of all-time from exactly this kind of play.

Aldo has quality all over, no doubt, but he's relying on individual quality and moments of genius. There's no real cohesiveness to that attack, it's just a collection of brilliant players in a mis-mash of styles. I've got no elaborate tactics, these players are just doing what they always do - and they're doing it in a tried and trusted setup. I find it odd to talk about me going for big names over a successful strategy when it seems quite clear that my route to goal is clear-cut and my setup is familiar and proven whereas Aldo's is packed full of big name attacking midfielders but with no obvious way of properly utilising each. No team is perfect at this stage - my setup has obvious flaws, Aldo's has the same, it's just about who can impose their style of play and strengths on the opposition and gain some form of control in the match.

Anyway, that's all I have to say about the tactics and stuff - I'd like to talk about players. I was thinking about doing one of those player compilations for Beckenbauer in the '72 final but christ it got very tedious very quickly. No idea how anyone does that regularly, it completely ruins any enjoyment you get from the game. Regardless, I took a couple of clips of them to show the kind of role Beckenbauer played. He wasn't remotely cavalier and spent most of the game mopping up after the rest of the team, only breaking into midfield when a team-mate needed an option and it was a chance to open the game up.

 

[Brwned]

Anyone think Romario at his peak was arguably better than Muller at his peak? There's no agenda here as I think we can all agree Romario's peak was relatively short-lived and Muller's longevity is what makes him the better player in this game, but just for discussion's sake. Muller was the better goalscorer no matter what way you look at things but Romario's agility, close control and dribbling/acceleration made him a greater all-round threat. Or does Romario's lack of big-game goals - with the '94 final of course being the main highlight - count against him too much against the ultimate big-game goalscorer?

 

[Gio]

Well Muller's unswerving record on the highest stage probably gives him the edge. Goals in the 1974 and 1975 European Cup Finals, in both of the 1976 semi-finals, winner in the 1970 World Cup quarters, two in the semi-finals, and further goals in the finals of Euro '72 and World Cup '74.

Romario I'd contend is the best penalty-box striker of the last 25 years, perhaps even since Muller. He'd break records playing up front for Barcelona in today's La Liga.

 

[JaffyJoe]

Zidane and Laudrup? How are they working Brwned??

 

[Theon]

Love the clip Brwned, top man - the last clip is probably the best for the position he takes out of possession, you see him dropping in covering and exactly what I could see him doing here brilliantly with Stam

I've read Balu's posts but still curious on Beckenbauer. How would he be compared with a defensive master like Baresi, Passarella or Nesta? Was his game just so much more about the playmaking or can he hold his own defensively with the likes of those?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Laudrup and Zidane as CMs against Rijkaard and Edwards are a car crash. This is hardly any different from Stob's all in in the last draft for which he got slaughtered.

Ronaldo v Thuram and Zambrotta vs Garincha battles are loaded in Brwned favour. They need the CB's to support them leaving Romario in a much freer role that you might prefer. Add Zidane/Laudrup to the equation, both Dunc and Rijkaard will have their hands full in defence....and the bombing runs that you mention will not be in abundance to make a difference. This leaves the Zico vs Neeskens & Stam vs Muller battles which you will definitely win, but with Beckenbauer backing them they should be able to manage, albeit barely.

You may have a better chance at normal gameplay, but Brwned's counter will be deadly. If Dunc/Rijkaard are caught too much forward, I would fancy Brwned scoring more. I would say it all boil down into whether Dunc/Rijkaard can perform at both ends of the pitch. They certainly have the ability and that's what makes it a much tougher game.

Agree on the Stob part though

 

[antohan]

Yes, instead of pretending to be some sort of tactical guru with a complex gameplan I attempted to re-create a side which played the best football the Euro's have ever seen. And of course it seems the resident German - the one who knows more about the players in this matchup than possibly anyone else in this thread - thinks it's a viable strategy, but that's irrelevant of course.

To be honest, I don't see the link with Germany 72 other than a few things here and there. You can't take a German side as the template and pack it with Latin (Maghreb/Meds for Zidane) players, you simply won't get the same outcome. The tactical discipline is gone and, to avoid saying efficiency, the devastating pragmatism and team orientation of the Germans is also largely absent.

I love Garrincha, I think he was underrated in my side in no small part due to me being quite honest that he would just do whatever he wanted. If there ever was a player you would want to give that role to it is Garrincha, but when you also have Romario, Zidane and Cristiano you suddenly have too many individuals given free reign to do as they please and little by way of a concerted team effort. Laudrup is the only one trying to keep it all together while also being the only one giving Neeskens any sort of support. He probably has the right temperament to pull that off... if only the others would let him.

The one tried and tested thing I see is actually not Germany 72 but the Laudrup-Romario pair but, again, their company lacking the graft that others in that Barca side chipped in... and even then they were prone to basketball scorelines.

I really don't see the point of benching Thiago Silva and weakening the midfield, Zidane really doesn't do it at all for me out there. I was wondering earlier that neither side seemed to have got much stronger but that's not true, just bringing Cristiano and Garrincha onto the side KM had would make you immense. Add Scirea after this and it would be game on for the final.

I appreciate the enthusiasm in trying to do something different as this has turned into a watching paint dry contest at times, but I think you've completely undermined what was shaping up as my favourite side in this draft.

 

[Balu]

It's certainly not a straight copy of Germany 72, but it bears a resemblance to it, especially in defense and I certainly can see Zidane playing a similar role to Netzer. But to me it looks like a brilliant 4141 and there are few players in world football I'd take ahead of Neeskens in that formation as the holding midfielder and none I'd take ahead of Beckenbauer as centerback.

With Beckenbauer in midfield and Silva in defense, it might have a better overall balance, but I can see that team score every single time at least one more goal than the opponent. Especially in this game, I don't think the lack of defensive cover from midfield is that big of a problem. I'm not sure Gullit will play an important role at all, if his workrate in midfield isn't of use like Aldo stated in his op. Aldo's fullbacks won't contribute anything in attack in this game. So I can't see a fluid formation in which Cruyff dragging Gerets or Stam out of position will create constantly dangerous situations. And Ando's defense doesn't look like it can handle Brwned's attack at all.

Btw. Brwned's video shows in a few scenes what I meant when I wrote Beckenbauer's reading of the game and his positioning will keep that defense together and help start attacks from deep all the time. Brwned doesn't need another great ballwinner in midfield with Beckenbauer at centerback.

Love the clip Brwned, top man - the last clip is probably the best for the position he takes out of possession, you see him dropping in covering and exactly what I could see him doing here brilliantly with Stam

I've read Balu's posts but still curious on Beckenbauer. How would he be compared with a defensive master like Baresi, Passarella or Nesta? Was his game just so much more about the playmaking or can he hold his own defensively with the likes of those?

He's basically your defensive superman, he can do it all really. He's often left out of these best defenders of all time rankings, because he did so much more. But his role in 72 and some of his performances in the european cups showed that he's easily up there with the best of all time. I honestly had forgotten how good he really was as a true defender and these draft games made me watch a lot of old footage from Germany, Bayern and Gladbach in the seventies. His spectacular moments overshadowed a lot in my memory. And all the stories written about him usually focus way to much about what he contributed going forward as a libero, how he as a defender was easily good enough to fool other defenders. He was a defender first and he was incredible brilliant at it. Take the time to watch some of the 72 performances, Germany vs Russia, the Germany vs Switzerland friendly and the game at Wembley (it's not the best performance, but it's still amazing and it's the game that started that run, the 72 team is still called the "Wembley-Elf "in Germany ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wembley-Elf_(1972) ).

 

[Moby]

He was a defender first

Cannot find the post but I quite clearly remember Brwned saying the exact opposite to that, something on the lines of Beckenbauer being a leader first, then a playmaker and lastly a defender. Which is why I was shocked he played him as a CB.

 

[Balu]

Cannot find the post but I quite clearly remember Brwned saying the exact opposite to that, something on the lines of Beckenbauer being a leader first, then a playmaker and lastly a defender. Which is why I was shocked he played him as a CB.

Well he was a leader first, that's true. And a lot depends on which game you watch. When he's played as a libero, given a freerole, then he was a playmaker first. If we consider his ability, I think he was a defender first, especially in those games in 72.

 

[Moby]

By the way you completely ignored Zico's impact in your analysis. Bit weird to say that very few would be better than Neeskens to handle him when Neeskens himself wasn't a DM.

 

[Balu]

By the way you completely ignored Zico's impact in your analysis. Bit weird to say that very few would be better than Neeskens to handle him when Neeskens himself wasn't a DM.

I didn't ignore him at all and there usually isn't any man-marking happening in a 4141. The holding midfielder and the centerbacks have a hell of a job to do in reading the game, covering each other and defending the space, not the man. As long as Gerets is allowed to follow Cruyff whereever he goes, Neeskens and Beckenbauer will be fine. Brwned's team won't prevent you from scoring, your attack is way too good for that. But I think they'll handle your attack better than your defense will handle his attack.

 

[Moby]

I didn't ignore him at all and there usually isn't any man-marking happening in a 4141. The holding midfielder and the centerbacks have a hell of a job to do in reading the game, covering each other and defending the space, not the man. As long as Gerets is allowed to follow Cruyff whereever he goes, Neeskens and Beckenbauer will be fine. Brwned's team won't prevent you from scoring, your attack is way too good for that. But I think they'll handle your attack better than your defense will handle his attack.

So Gerets is nullifying a three time Ballon D'or winner who won all that destroying defenses day in day out no matter what? I don't know if you have read the OP but Cruyff is in a free role, not just playing on the left. Gerets cannot possibly track him all game. You've reduced him to a glorified David Silva who is doing nothing but trying to play hollywood passes, that is not what Cruyff is. He is a match winner, which is what he is supposed to be doing and given he can score, assist or dribble with equal deadliness, I really doubt he would be stopped.

Secondly, the array of passes that would be put with Zico and Cruyff combining is far too unpredictable to cut out even by someone as great as Kaiser. And anyway, as I said if he does that well then both Zico and Cruyff are good enough to go solo, and that will be trouble specially for Johan the second.

 

[Balu]

I never said Cruyff will be nullified, I said Gerets will annoy the shit out of him, but you will score anyway. I said, even if he has a freerole and will be all over the attacking third, it's not a fluid formation, because you've got no players who will follow his moves and cover the empty space behind him, so even if he drags Stam and Gerets out of position, you won't punish the defense. I called him a brilliant footballer, individually he's one of the best players of all time.

 

[Moby]

I never said Cruyff will be nullified, I said Gerets will annoy the shit out of him, but you will score anyway.

Both teams will score, no one doubts that. Annoying is a bit ambigious for me, he can try to make it tough for him, just like Zambrotta will also try to make it tough for Garrincha but neither will work thanks to the individual brilliance of both the players.

If there was one player I would easily take out from Michel's system and still have performing at his best, it would be Cruyff, just like if there was one player I would take out from Pep's system, it would be Messi. And there is no surprise that both operate in pretty similar ways. They will just look to hurt you in whatever way is the most difficult for the opposition to stop. If you put great readers of the game against them, they will switch to directness and use their lightning quick pace and acceleration with close control to take advantage. And both are one of the most complete attacking players technically to pull that off.

That is the thing here, Gerets cannot keep up with Cruyff once he is running at top gear with the ball, no one could. As for Zico, cutting his supply is not stopping him either because apart from being as good a number 10 you will find outside of Maradona, he was also one of the best goalscorers of all time and certainly did not score all those goals with a tap in. Scoring at a better rate than Platini in a tough as nails league like Serie A where you were kicked all over the place with no protection is not a small feat. I can understand your point that Neeskens is a good option when it comes to intercepting their passes, again to an extent, he is not the best at that role either while Zico and Cruyff clearly are at theirs, but he needs to stay near him at ALL times otherwise he will score. Beckenbauer can help him out at the risk of leaving Gerd open, at that point everything will depend on them intercepting the pass, if they do it, good, else it is a clear goal. For 90 minutes, that is a big risk.

All this takes us back to the lack of balance in his midfield. Against the sort of attacking talent in my team you just cannot go in with one defensively good CM who wasn't a proper DM itself. While I agree that my defense is not my strongest point, but I have a good enough shield to stop the ball before it gets into a dangerous area.

It really is a shame that such a tactical blunder is not being punished when I have done nothing but try to get the best out of each player in the team. As Theon was advising me, I could have simply gone in with Garrincha and Matthaus to please the voters, but that would obviously not make sense tactically.

 

[Balu]

I think it's really harsh to call Brwned's formation a tactical blunder. It's a very risky idea, without doubt, and I understand when someone thinks it won't work. But it's a proven formation with no one being played out of his natural position or in a role that doesn't fit his abilities. I don't want to take over the thread, I've said why I think it'll work and explained why I voted for him. I wanted to write a few things about Beckenbauer because you clearly misjudged him and his role, that's it for me. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[Moby]

I did, never mentioned him going forward once you corrected me. Yeah it's probably harsh but in such a game going risky would usually turn into a blunder.

Thanks for all your insight, always a great learning experience from reading your posts.

 

[Theon]

Cheers Balu some great posts

Anyway this can be extended a day Aldo? I know your winning but theres so much more discussion to be had here IMO, like the Romario vs Muller part Brwned brought up.

2 pages isn't great for a semi, obviously its due to the effects of deadline day and Woody

 

[Moby]

Looks pretty dead to me mate. There wasn't any discussion for hours till Balu posted. Brwned isn't around to discuss anything anyway so I fail to see any more activity in it.

I've participated as much as I could but I don't think many are interested mostly due to more important activities like calling Woodward a cnut.

 

[Gio]

It's certainly not a straight copy of Germany 72, but it bears a resemblance to it, especially in defense and I certainly can see Zidane playing a similar role to Netzer. But to me it looks like a brilliant 4141 and there are few players in world football I'd take ahead of Neeskens in that formation as the holding midfielder and none I'd take ahead of Beckenbauer as centerback.

There are a few elite teams who've done the 4-1-4-1 well in the recent past. Spain's Euro 2008 vintage was effectively 4-1-3-2 with Senna one would imagine performing a similar function to Neeskens here. Milan in 2002/03 also flirted successfully with 4-1-4-1 as a means of cramming in all that attacking talent (Rui Costa, Rivaldo, Seedorf, Serginho) behind Shevchenko. I think it's viable and can understand Brwned's rationale given I'm not sure there was an easy upgrade available for Silva from KM's team.

 

[Balu]

There are a few elite teams who've done the 4-1-4-1 well in the recent past. Spain's Euro 2008 vintage was effectively 4-1-3-2 with Senna one would imagine performing a similar function to Neeskens here. Milan in 2002/03 also flirted successfully with 4-1-4-1 as a means of cramming in all that attacking talent (Rui Costa, Rivaldo, Seedorf, Serginho) behind Shevchenko. I think it's viable and can understand Brwned's rationale given I'm not sure there was an easy upgrade available for Silva from KM's team.

Yeah and let's not forget, Brwned is sadly just a year too early, because next year at that time, Bayern will be the first team that defended the CL title, playing entertaining football in a comparable 4141 formation (or at least I hope so )

 

[Moby]

Tough luck Brwned, it was a good effort and again thanks for taking over KM's team and letting the draft go ahead smoothly.

Now for the big game we shall wait till tomorrow. Maradona against Messi, the showdown.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Damn...just back from work and my vote would have evened things up

 

[antohan]

Damn...just back from work and my vote would have evened things up

If you don't know whether you'll be around you should vote earlier fruitcake

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

If you don't know whether you'll be around you should vote earlier fruitcake

I know. I was posting from office and had a lunch meeting with my boss unexpectedly leading to a branch visit and never went back to office. By the time I got back home this was done and finished. Hard Luck Brwned!

 

[Moby]

And here's the capture of the hat trick hero during the memorable moment of sealing his hat trick with a 90th minute winner.

 

[Cutch]

You decided who you're taking yet from Brwned's side Aldo? Or does it depend who you face in the final

 

[Moby]

Couple of obvious names in there but I'll wait till your game. Haven't thought it through.

 

[antohan]

That's where I thought Brwned had the upper hand going forward, add Scirea and send Beckenbauer back to midfield and he would have been a force to be reckoned with. Aldo can only realistically take Cristiano or Laudrup.

Would have loved to see Laudrup and Cruyff in the same team, you may as well as I can't see you winning this TBH.

The Decades constraint has turned out to be more exacting than the nationality one we had before. With the nationality one you always had 11 players with different nationalities so there was always bound to be an improvement that could be picked, while here the decade thing has Aldo tied up in knots.

 

[Fergus' son]

That's where I thought Brwned had the upper hand going forward, add Scirea and send Beckenbauer back to midfield and he would have been a force to be reckoned with. Aldo can only realistically take Cristiano or Laudrup.

Would have loved to see Laudrup and Cruyff in the same team, you may as well as I can't see you winning this TBH.

The Decades constraint has turned out to be more exacting than the nationality one we had before. With the nationality one you always had 11 players with different nationalities so there was always bound to be an improvement that could be picked, while here the decade thing has Aldo tied up in knots.

They have a nationality/decades ongoing in the newbies!

 

[Cutch]

Yeah, the decade constraint has made it very interesting. It really limits your options when the pool of eliminated players becomes smaller at the latter stages. It can be hard to upgrade on relative weak links. Aldo couldn't swap Zambrotta for Facchetti in the last round without taking out Cruyff or Muller. His only choice now is Schnellinger butt then he's back to square 1 with Alonso in midfield.

 

[Moby]

They have a nationality/decades ongoing in the newbies!

Yeah, that is absolutely mental. Both criteria at the same time

I agree anto, this is as far as it gets. Whoever comes out of that one is going to be absolutely insanely good, not that they already aren't. More than I expected really at the start of the matches, clearly picking Vidic early was a gamble that backfired, should have instead follow your strategy of getting a GK and a sub from 80s.

I had a plan of getting Facchetti and playing Cruyff as CF in the semi but then didn't go forward with it and remained with the same setup, I was quite excited to make that change and put forward different arguments and all but in the end would have been a huge issue trying to explain people how Cruyff up front would work with Gullit and Nedved on the flanks.

Also because I wanted Scirea as I would have been facing Messi/Ronaldo in the final and clearly even Hansen would not have been rated enough to put a fight against them when Scirea can at least have a chance doing that.

I might as well go ahead with the most obvious option despite it not being the most realistic after seeing how Brwned almost beat me with that midfield and tactics weren't given much thought into.

 

[antohan]

They have a nationality/decades ongoing in the newbies!

I know, I got about 6-7 of them asking for tips/bouncing ideas when it started. Had to politely turn them all down because it becomes a nightmare when you can't see the newbie forum, I've had trouble before dealing with two managers and suggesting the same player to both, then one wasn't happy!

And you would know how unfair it is that Schmeichel Mark II turns up out of nowhere, i.e. Ielpo

clearly picking Vidic early was a gamble that backfired, should have instead follow your strategy of getting a GK and a sub from 80s.

Yeah, because that worked for me... Nah, I agree, 80s always had to be a GK and a sub with a view to Cristiano/Ronaldinho joining. Xavi is a fecking draft nightmare and Iniesta doesn't really cut it as a winger or #10 relative to the competition. You should only ever take those if you are going for some sort of Barca approach (as was the case in the All-time draft early on).

I had a plan of getting Facchetti and playing Cruyff as CF in the semi but then didn't go forward with it and remained with the same setup, I was quite excited to make that change and put forward different arguments and all but in the end would have been a huge issue trying to explain people how Cruyff up front would work with Gullit and Nedved on the flanks.

You would have lost this, surely. Not a bad idea though, and you could have got Romario now. Zico-Romario that pair would have been unbelievable. Actually...

Also because I wanted Scirea as I would have been facing Messi/Ronaldo in the final and clearly even Hansen would not have been rated enough to put a fight against them when Scirea can at least have a chance doing that.

I don't think he would accomplish that, but at the very least you wouldn't be comparing Baresi or Nesta to Hansen. God, that Scirea-Baresi argument will come up again, won't it?

I might as well go ahead with the most obvious option despite it not being the most realistic after seeing how Brwned almost beat me with that midfield and tactics weren't given much thought into.

Cristiano? It would be a shame to drop Gullit but I actually don't think he is doing it for you in voter's minds. I'd wait until your opponent is clear. I'd pick Laudrup vs. Cutch but maybe Cristiano vs. Bobby Carlos (never vs. Maldini, if he comfortably dealt with Garrincha...).

If only you could take two...

 

[Moby]

Garrincha. I could see Cristiano being some sort of a fit tactically but then, I'd have to reduce him to a wing forward making runs and mainly a goalscorer, not the all round attacking player he was with us and the last thing I need is another goal threat, neither do I have a great crosser to make use of his aerial ability. Garrincha would present the issue I had in mind when I left him earlier but I'd think he would be a vote winner and time for me to get a little of that after spending the whole draft trying to spin my head around imagining how the team would gel together and function well. Cruyff is barely rated anything more than an uber-creative playmaker which is hardly fair so I'd have someone who is more well known with his individual match winning ability, while I rate cruyff as a bigger match winner but I didn't see many agreeing to me.

 

[Moby]

Oh damn, just realized cannot pick him.