Decades Draft Tournament : Cutch vs Theon

[Theon]

Aye that Theon cnut with all his nice pictures and videos at the start of the 2nd page hasn't helped, that's an Antohan trick that one

Right, i'm away on the rest of my journey here. Literally posting from a layby at the side of the road. Hoping on a few of the regulars to show up that seemed to like my team throughout. Surely I'll get a certain Germans vote!

Later guys

Who are you picking if you win mate?

Just had a quick scan but on the decades I think Ronaldo is probably who you will go for and push Messi into AM and Iniesta wide?

No idea if that is right. but Messi and Ronaldo would be some front line

 

[antohan]

Think I mentioned before that I would've gone with Breitner at RB and Rivera into the midfield if I was in cutch's position, probably won't have won it for him though, Theons team though light in the midfield battle is amazing in all other areas.

Just swapping Breitner and Matthaus would have had the desired effect. I mentioned after my game Breitner should have been the one tracking Facchetti, same here in supporting Suurbier.

What the hell is Breitner doing on the left? Maldini-Nesta would be comfortable dealing with Jairzinho, with Kalle tracking Carlos Alberto. That's where he could afford to have the DM dedicated to do a man job on Maradona. Instead, the right flank has been completely exposed and Breitner is underutilised when he could have helped sort that. It's terrible mismanagement of a great player. It grated me in my game and grated me here throughout, he has been just a fancy name on a teamsheet.

Instead we have Iniesta supposedly tracking Carlos. Have Breitner doing that on the right DM job and Iniesta/Best and a deep-roaming Messi keeping Xavi-Tigana worried in the middle and everything Gio and Aldo said would be bang on the money.

 

[Moby]

Like to like swap Jairzinho for Best for you. Is there a need for the last game?

 

[antohan]

Like to like swap Jairzinho for Best for you. Is there a need for the last game?

Yeah, I love how Theon has made a point of lapping up the Georgie love

 

[Theon]

There is only one Bestie

Always planned to add him or Garrincha into the side at some point!

 

[Theon]

Who would Cutch take, Ronaldo seems best to me but its hard to guess with the decades

The biggest boost I think would be Baresi for Ayala, or Maradona for Iniesta but 60's are out - Ronaldo still a great option

 

[Cutch]

Just swapping Breitner and Matthaus would have had the desired effect. I mentioned after my game Breitner should have been the one tracking Facchetti, same here in supporting Suurbier.

What the hell is Breitner doing on the left? Maldini-Nesta would be comfortable dealing with Jairzinho, with Kalle tracking Carlos Alberto. That's where he could afford to have the DM dedicated to do a man job on Maradona. Instead, the right flank has been completely exposed and Breitner is underutilised when he could have helped sort that. It's terrible mismanagement of a great player. It grated me in my game and grated me here throughout, he has been just a fancy name on a teamsheet.

Instead we have Iniesta supposedly tracking Carlos. Have Breitner doing that on the right DM job and Iniesta/Best and a deep-roaming Messi keeping Xavi-Tigana worried in the middle and everything Gio and Aldo said would be bang on the money.

You went off on one in the last game when I had Mauro Silva doublin up with a job in the centre and one out wide. You also stressed that I should have Breitner and Rummenigge on the same side so that's what I've done.

Well done Theon. Great win. Could have cryed when you got Carlos Alberto and Baresi at the last drafting stage. Was pretty sure Best would have made it down to you so I had to take him or I wouldn't have had a prayer. Was hopin I'd have sneaked through this game and then got Carlos Alberto.

 

[Cutch]

Who are you picking if you win mate?

Just had a quick scan but on the decades I think Ronaldo is probably who you will go for and push Messi into AM and Iniesta wide?

No idea if that is right. but Messi and Ronaldo would be some front line

Definately would have been Carlos Alberto!

 

[Moby]

It was always Carlos Alberto for Cutch.

 

[Theon]

Shit of course it was

 

[Cutch]

Right, feck this. I've hauled Georgie off so we can go boozin

 

[antohan]

Who would Cutch take, Ronaldo seems best to me but its hard to guess with the decades

The biggest boost I think would be Baresi for Ayala, or Maradona for Iniesta but 60's are out - Ronaldo still a great option

I thought it was fairly obvious he would take Carlos Alberto to put Suurbier out of his misery. Ayala would like this, he's had a torrid time throughout the tourno.

 

[Theon]

I thought it was fairly obvious he would take Carlos Alberto to put Suurbier out of his misery. Ayala would like this, he's had a torrid time throughout the tourno.

Yeah it would definitely be Carlos Alberto, had a brainfart there

 

[Theon]

Hope you're not counting on me. As much as it hurts to vote against Breitnigge (it doesn't really hurt to vote against Matthäus)

What's the story here Balu, I thought he was a German/Bayern legend?

 

[antohan]

You went off on one in the last game when I had Mauro Silva doublin up with a job in the centre and one out wide.

There's no job for Breitner through the centre here, is there? Nothing Iniesta wouldn't do more competently than tracking Roberto Carlos.

Matthaus is doing the job on Maradona so Breitner would be best used on the right supporting the hapless Wim Suurbier.

You also stressed that I should have Breitner and Rummenigge on the same side so that's what I've done.

Ideally yes, particularly when it made the most sense as well. In this case though I can see why you would break that up to keep Best on Bobby and use Kalle to track Carlos Alberto, the big gaping hole is the tracking of Carlos and Suurbier not even coping with Ronaldinho, let alone both. Breitner should have been there all along.

I've said all along, you have some cracking players and should have won against me and here as well using them properly. I was always clear you had the superior side, why would I have set myself up the way I did if I didn't think that? What pissed me off was you didn't beat me with the right team/tactics!!!!!! That's what was hard to take, doing my best when up against it... only to find even if you made a mess of it I still didn't have a hope in hell

Had you played this I would have happily admitted I was limited to the one Eusebio solo goal (Voronin would have had as little chance of stopping him as Mauro Silva, but wouldn't have had to ALSO help Suurbier against Facchetti-Joya):

 

[antohan]

Yeah it would definitely be Carlos Alberto, had a brainfart there

Nah, just your usual muppet ways: looking at options upfront. You hadn't even realised you taking Carlos Alberto completely screwed him?

Glad for him that he has ended up somewhat tipping the balance here after I had to unceremoniously dump him in the quarters.

 

[Fergus' son]

Just swapping Breitner and Matthaus would have had the desired effect. I mentioned after my game Breitner should have been the one tracking Facchetti, same here in supporting Suurbier.

What the hell is Breitner doing on the left? Maldini-Nesta would be comfortable dealing with Jairzinho, with Kalle tracking Carlos Alberto. That's where he could afford to have the DM dedicated to do a man job on Maradona. Instead, the right flank has been completely exposed and Breitner is underutilised when he could have helped sort that. It's terrible mismanagement of a great player. It grated me in my game and grated me here throughout, he has been just a fancy name on a teamsheet.

Instead we have Iniesta supposedly tracking Carlos. Have Breitner doing that on the right DM job and Iniesta/Best and a deep-roaming Messi keeping Xavi-Tigana worried in the middle and everything Gio and Aldo said would be bang on the money.

Yeah, great points. Suurbier is getting a bad reception though, perhaps a little worse than he should, so I thought it would be best to try and replace him?

I thought it was fairly obvious he would take Carlos Alberto to put Suurbier out of his misery. Ayala would like this, he's had a torrid time throughout the tourno.

Ayala gets unfair treatment I think, admittedly in the last draft I had him in a partnership which was there to be picked at, because Samuel isn't renowned for his pace, but have someone next to him with exceptional speed like Nesta, then he's a top quality defender, with less flaws than is often made out.

 

[Moby]

You have no fecking clue who I am gonna pick do you?

Neither do I.

 

[Moby]

Yeah, great points. Suurbier is getting a bad reception though, perhaps a little worse than he should, so I thought it would be best to try and replace him?




Ayala gets unfair treatment I think, admittedly in the last draft I had him in a partnership which was there to be picked at, because Samuel isn't renowned for his pace, but have someone next to him with exceptional speed like Nesta, then he's a top quality defender, with less flaws than is often made out.

Yeah mentioned that earlier. It is something I learnt the hard way but never understood. Ask a bunch of neutrals and they will happily name him as the best CB after Nesta when he was at his peak.

 

[antohan]

What's the story here Balu, I thought he was a German/Bayern legend?

He is a cnut, no one likes him. One reason I didn't consider him in the first reinforcement round was he couldn't see eye-to-eye with Schuster.

For you to have an idea, and Balu may be able to tell who the player in question was, but someone in the Bayern squad had a fight with Matthaus the legend around the turn of the Century. I think he punched him, but may be wrong.

Point is, the way Bayern is run, captain Effenberg was consulted about what he thought was the best course of action with the young tearaway.

"You should offer him a new contract".

 

[antohan]

Ayala gets unfair treatment I think, admittedly in the last draft I had him in a partnership which was there to be picked at, because Samuel isn't renowned for his pace, but have someone next to him with exceptional speed like Nesta, then he's a top quality defender, with less flaws than is often made out.

He is in a good partnership but has spent every game paranoid about covering Suurbier, he is probably a full-fledged right back by now.

 

[Theon]

Yeah mentioned that earlier. It is something I learnt the hard way but never understood. Ask a bunch of neutrals and they will happily name him as the best CB after Nesta when he was at his peak.

Really, ahead of the likes of Desailly and Rio who were fairly similar in eras (5 years either side)?

 

[Theon]

Nah, just your usual muppet ways: looking at options upfront. You hadn't even realised you taking Carlos Alberto completely screwed him?

Glad for him that he has ended up somewhat tipping the balance here after I had to unceremoniously dump him in the quarters.

Haha yeah I was then to be fair! I completely forgot about Suurbier and just looked at my team and thought if I was picking it would be Maradona, Ronaldo and Baresi who I would be looking to pick, and only Ronaldo fits.

Before though I did know he was after Carlos Alberto so half the reason I took him.. Big but though - I never expected him to get Matthaus (thought Aldo would snatch him up) so IMO who Cutch actually chose was better than what I was trying to prevent him choosing, if that makes sense.

Basically I would have preferred him to pick Best/Alberto than Best/Matthaus so I don't think he lost out much there, two awesome upgrades.

With Matthaus you just know that there is no better player for a drafter to combat Maradona so I was gutted when he got him.

 

[Theon]

He is a cnut, no one likes him. One reason I didn't consider him in the first reinforcement round was he couldn't see eye-to-eye with Schuster.

For you to have an idea, and Balu may be able to tell who the player in question was, but someone in the Bayern squad had a fight with Matthaus the legend around the turn of the Century. I think he punched him, but may be wrong.

Point is, the way Bayern is run, captain Effenberg was consulted about what he thought was the best course of action with the young tearaway.

"You should offer him a new contract".

Haha yeah I think I've heard that before, hopefully Balu gives some more details though. I thought it would be a bit like Keano and other fans i.e. he's a cnut but he's our cnut. But for Balu a Bayern/German to dislike him he must have been something else.

IIRC Effenberg and Matthaus didn't get on well either

 

[Moby]

Really, ahead of the likes of Desailly and Rio who were fairly similar in eras (5 years either side)?

Desailly? I think he was not at his peak during Ayala's peak which was mid 00s.

 

[Theon]

Desailly? I think he was not at his peak during Ayala's peak which was mid 00s.

Yup both 5 years either side of Ayala, so he was 5 years before

 

[Moby]

Yeah didn't consider Desailly at all otherwise anyday he's a better defender. Rio's a god in redcafe but outside, not so much.

 

[Balu]

Haha yeah I think I've heard that before, hopefully Balu gives some more details though. I thought it would be a bit like Keano and other fans i.e. he's a cnut but he's our cnut. But for Balu a Bayern/German to dislike him he must have been something else.

IIRC Effenberg and Matthaus didn't get on well either

Lizarazu punched Matthäus in training (probably fully deserved, but I don't know what lead to the fight) and I think Effenberg said "Give him a raise" when asked about it by the club officials/managing staff.

There's no way you can like Matthäus as a person, he's such a massive idiot. There's really not much to tell, he was a true professional on the pitch throughout his career and you can't question anything about him as a player, but he destroyed his legacy everytime he opened his mouth. For example, he consistently fought with Klinsmann, when they played together at Inter and Bayern, and therefore missed the Euro 96 - Klinsmann was captain and the most important player to manager Berti Vogts. That summer he sold internal matters to the media (he wrote a secret diary column at Bild), especially stuff about Klinsmann, and then lost the captaincy at Bayern because of that.

When Matthäus finally retired, Uli Hoeneß once was asked about him maybe working for Bayern in the future and he answered, he wouldn't even give him a job as a janitor. Bayern have a history of giving former players jobs, treating former legends with huge respect and helping them if they struggle in real life and mostly that's because of Hoeneß and how he ran the club for 35 years. But there's no way Matthäus will ever work for the club again.

Effenberg isn't much better though. Both started their professional career at Gladbach and both played for years for Bayern and had great success with the club but neither of them is really loved at either club. I think it's different with Keane at United. I don't think he's off the pitch as big a cnut as Matthäus and he was a important part in the rise of the club during the 90's and stayed throughout his peak. Matthäus came, left at his peak and then came back because he wasn't wanted at Inter anymore after his injuries. While he was playing for us, of course he was our cnut and we were glad having him in the team because he was brilliant, but that's it, at least for me.

 

[Theon]

Unlucky Cutch, good game man - either side could have won this one, both really great teams

Great stuff Balu! Cheers

On Keano - its hard to properly understand why Matthaus isnt liked because Keano has definitely started saying some really irritating things about the club recently, quite often comes across as very bitter about United (probably half right to be fair as he was unceremoniously shifted out at the end).. But that being said he'll probably be the Caf's favourite player.

He's still mine for example, but by the sounds of it Matthaus was just far worse

 

[Cutch]

Really enjoyed this draft. Restrictions made it extremely challenging. No regrets. Tbh I think the top of the order was a bad place to be for the 2 reinforcement stages. Would have loved to have been nearer the bottom the way it worked out

 

[antohan]

Lizarazu punched Matthäus in training (probably fully deserved, but I don't know what lead to the fight) and I think Effenberg said "Give him a raise" when asked about it by the club officials/managing staff.

There's no way you can like Matthäus as a person, he's such a massive idiot. There's really not much to tell, he was a true professional on the pitch throughout his career and you can't question anything about him as a player, but he destroyed his legacy everytime he opened his mouth. For example, he consistently fought with Klinsmann, when they played together at Inter and Bayern, and therefore missed the Euro 96 - Klinsmann was captain and the most important player to manager Berti Vogts. That summer he sold internal matters to the media (he wrote a secret diary column at Bild), especially stuff about Klinsmann, and then lost the captaincy at Bayern because of that.

When Matthäus finally retired, Uli Hoeneß once was asked about him maybe working for Bayern in the future and he answered, he wouldn't even give him a job as a janitor. Bayern have a history of giving former players jobs, treating former legends with huge respect and helping them if they struggle in real life and mostly that's because of Hoeneß and how he ran the club for 35 years. But there's no way Matthäus will ever work for the club again.

Effenberg isn't much better though. Both started their professional career at Gladbach and both played for years for Bayern and had great success with the club but neither of them is really loved at either club. I think it's different with Keane at United. I don't think he's off the pitch as big a cnut as Matthäus and he was a important part in the rise of the club during the 90's and stayed throughout his peak. Matthäus came, left at his peak and then came back because he wasn't wanted at Inter anymore after his injuries. While he was playing for us, of course he was our cnut and we were glad having him in the team because he was brilliant, but that's it, at least for me.

I think we can all agree a lot of German players are cnuts

Had completely forgotten about the Klinsmann stuff. I used to root for that Inter side (the underdog, as ever , relative to AC at the time) but it was probably the only example I've ever seen of Dutch players (van Basten, Gullit, Rijkaard) proving to be more focused on the team than German players (Matthaus, Klinsmann, Brehme). The Dutch have form with ego-trips screwing up chemistry, but with those two you could see the tension ramp up to untenable levels.

I don't think it was as bad early on, but post World Cup it seemed Matthaus was somewhat worried about Klinsmann looking good at all. He seemed hellbent on ensuring he would forever be remembered as the starman who had won it for Germany with the rest as supporting cast, i.e. to be to Germany at Italia 90 what Maradona was to Argentina at Mexico 86. Good luck cunto!

 

[antohan]

Really enjoyed this draft. Restrictions made it extremely challenging. No regrets. Tbh I think the top of the order was a bad place to be for the 2 reinforcement stages. Would have loved to have been nearer the bottom the way it worked out

Agree, at reinforcement level you effectively have early dibs on two 1st/2nd round picks, taking into account the constraint, etc. That's a huge advantage. Then in the second reinforcement round everyone is so tied up by the constraint that the advantage of going early is minimal. Probably not even an advantage at all (e.g. much better to do a double whammy like Baresi-Carlos Alberto than pick a favourite and whatever is left, even if it wound up being Matthaus).

 

[Theon]

Disagree completely, would have far preferred to go top

And Best/Matthaus is about as good a double pick as you can get

 

[Cutch]

Really enjoyed this draft. Restrictions made it extremely challenging. No regrets. Tbh I think the top of the order was a bad place to be for the 2 reinforcement stages. Would have loved to have been nearer the bottom the way it worked out

 

[antohan]

Disagree completely, would have far preferred to go top

You got Maradona and he has seen you through to the final despite a comparably weak midfield. Cutch got Iniesta.

And Best/Matthaus is about as good a double pick as you can get

The second double pick is bound to be an excellent pair of players with so much quality in the pool. The difference is you have much risk involved waiting for the second chap. What if Aldo had taken Matthaus? There was no Matthaus equivalent or 40s fullback equivalent to Carlos Alberto any more.

When you pick the two together that risk of is off the table, if you pick two guys together and they aren't the best possible pair of picks for your side you have to be quite the moron.

 

[Theon]

You got Maradona and he has seen you through to the final despite a comparably weak midfield. Cutch got Iniesta.



The second double pick is bound to be an excellent pair of players with so much quality in the pool. The difference is you have much risk involved waiting for the second chap. What if Aldo had taken Matthaus? There was no Matthaus equivalent or 40s fullback equivalent to Carlos Alberto any more.

When you pick the two together that risk of is off the table, if you pick two guys together and they aren't the best possible pair of picks for your side you have to be quite the moron.

1) Aye but I deliberately left the 60's free to get Maradona.

And on the first round Cutch got Messi, I got Xavi.

2) Yeah double picks are great.. And in the first reinforcement round I had a 14 pick wait till my next go. Top of the draft only had 6 in the second reinforcement stage. No difference there really, both get a double pick.

Also, going first allows you to build your team around that star player than you inevitably get - part of the reason I was so against Isotope's team because he just didn't do that.

Doesn't matter anyway, probably Cutch preferring to be at the bottom and me preferring to be at the top indicates how hard the draft was.

 

[antohan]

Before starting, this isn't a random rant, Aldo was testing a new concept for reinforcements so it's worth analysing this stuff.

1) Aye but I deliberately left the 60's free to get Maradona.

He did too (Stoichkov and Mauro Silva clearly weren't picked to start all the way to the final as the 60s picks).

I did as well (even got Campbell as my sub to replace Desailly if I had the chance early on).

You got him because you went first. Cutch got Iniesta.

It does sort of make up for him getting Messi while you got Xavi, as you say.

2) Yeah double picks are great.. And in the first reinforcement round I had a 14 pick wait till my next go. Top of the draft only had 6 in the second reinforcement stage. No difference there really, both get a double pick.

But you were jammy in that you got Ronaldo to last 14 picks. I can imagine the tension as you realised it was actually a possibility...

The thing is going first in the second reinforcement round is no huge advantage, very much the opposite.

In the first one the pool is much deeper and the flexibility across decades much greater so you can pick a player like Maradona and just leave your second man to chance. You certainly don't run out of quality when the likes of Redondo and Cafú go unpicked, or Pelé and Facchetti in the second round.

But the further you've gone the more likely it is that a lingering issue will require two moves. e.g. He couldn't pick Zanetti because he needed to ALSO source a CB to replace Ayala if he were to do that. No chance he could count on that so he had to pick his fave and hope a good upgrade was left over.

The second reinforcement round isn't about getting big names but putting the finishing touches to your team and having your two picks as close as possible is absolutely huge because there are less options that will work now and the pool is narrower (leftovers from 4 teams instead of 8).

He got a couple of nice upgrades, while you basically went from having a badly protected leaky defence to having a solid defence that allayed concerns over your midfield.

Also, going first allows you to build your team around that star player than you inevitably get - part of the reason I was so against Isotope's team because he just didn't do that.

That is very helpful indeed, no question. Missing out on the key names tends to focus the other managers though, while the ones at the top get a bit complacent at times.

Doesn't matter anyway, probably Cutch preferring to be at the bottom and me preferring to be at the top indicates how hard the draft was.

As said, it does matter because we are trialling a different reinforcement method here. It wasn't an easy draft and a lot has gone down to the individual decisions made in the first draft, luck in terms of who was drawn with who, etc. You would have probably been sent packing had you not got paceme in the first round!

On paper, the second round of picking from a pool seems to skew things a bit. My take though is that much of its impact is down to the decades constraint. If that weren't at play the relative advantage of picking two players in one go or as close as possible isn't as relevant. I think it is probably a bettter/fairer way to remove the element of "luck of the draw" and, ultimately, if the constraint ties managers up in knots it's not like they didn't have the opportunity to plan for that.

All in all, good change IMO. Maybe one adjustment would be to keep the eliminated player pool enlarging rather than discard those that went unpicked. Same for the "picking from the opponent in the semi". Maybe you should be able to have first dibs at one player from your opponent but the other winning semifinalist can look at other players? E.g. Cutch getting Carlos Alberto from Theon would have allowed Aldo to pick Maradona. He he, I could see Cutch starting the final still with Suurbier then

 

[NM]

so was this the final or is there another game?

 

[antohan]

Nah, we still have a dead rubber ahead, or so will Aldo want us to believe

 

[Cutch]

Anto, that's a brilliant post. Unbelievable how much you have this worked out.