Decades Draft Tournament : Stobzilla vs Theon

[antohan]

2 - The lack of width is a problem defensively as it was in the diamond formation I had last draft. If it wasnt a problem then I could have gotten away with Xavi in there but I got slated for it when I did. Both fullbacks are 1 vs 1 with two wingers and the two wingers are two of the best in the entire game, its an issue as it would be in any of the narrow formations. Carlos doubling up for a 2 vs 1 just makes that even worse. You cant play 5 central players and not be vulnerable out wide to the wingers.

I don't get this argument at all. It's the fullback that is the specialist at dealing with the danger, not the winger tracking back. You make it sound like Giggs is more important defensively than Evra would be, which is mental.

I do see how narrow formations may give the opposing fullbacks more freedom to attack and create 2v1 situations but it's not like Lahm will run after Bobby and leave Dinho loose. If Gerrard doesn't come to provide cover the worst case is Roberto Carlos on the loose and Baresi can close that down. Not ideal, but doesn't scream goals at me.

I really don't see the significant difference between where Gerrard is deployed and being "a winger" if his instruction is to support Lahm when under pressure. As others mentioned, the question is whether he has the tactical nous and discipline to pull it off consistently. Probably not, but in the final third that's where he should be as neither Xavi nor Tigana (nor Carlos) are significant goalscoring threats.

I don't get this. You seem to have entirely conceded Keane will have Maradona in his pocket and Baresi-Forster will have Ronaldo in theirs. Weird.

 

[Stobzilla]

1 - Gerrard isn't dealing with Roberto Carlos and also playing in midfield IMO, he cant play two roles and its unfair for people to make out he is considering the lengths I had to blag Gattuso doing that when that was the exact role he actually played in that Milan team, even then he would never be tracking someone like Carlos. If that is what he is supposed to be doing then he should be at right wing not centre mid. Having him doing a job on Carlos and also giving a 3 vs 2 in the middle is like having an extra player - and we're talking about the worst midfielder on the pitch

Baresi covering isnt a great option anyway with Maradona and Ronaldo there in the middle. I've tried to argue that the good thing about this attack is that it is so balanced from right to left to the middle, there isnt a weak link in it and if defenders are moving out to deal with a certain part it leaves space for the other attackers, in this case Ronaldo and Maradona.

2 - The lack of width is a problem defensively as it was in the diamond formation I had last draft. If it wasnt a problem then I could have gotten away with Xavi in there but I got slated for it when I did. Both fullbacks are 1 vs 1 with two wingers and the two wingers are two of the best in the entire game, its an issue as it would be in any of the narrow formations. Carlos doubling up for a 2 vs 1 just makes that even worse. You cant play 5 central players and not be vulnerable out wide to the wingers.

Tbh my team is getting so much more criticism and scrutiny that Stobz its getting ridiculous. Most posts seem to be trying to find a reason for saying his side will work and there has barely been any scrutiny at all

Scrutinise away.

No one is saying that Gerrard is on Carlos all game, or at least I am not, but it is not inconceivable that he has an eye on him when he does venture forward, unless of course Carlos is staying forward all game and you are going to leave space everywhere to get over run in your final third.

 

[Thisistheone]

The width issue is not just about creating problems for Stobz' fullbacks, it stretches the game, stretches his defence (classic Ferguson/Utd tactic) creating space for Diego Maradona in the middle. Edit: And Brazilian Ronaldo.

This is a match-up that I'd love to see for real. Would be fascinating.

 

[Theon]

I don't get this. You seem to have entirely conceded Keane will have Maradona in his pocket and Baresi-Forster will have Ronaldo in theirs. Weird.

I'm not going to change your mind so we just disagree then, for me watching teams who play narrow formations there is always space to exploit out wide, whether its Milan or Juventus or whoever. If you're stocked in the middle then out wide is where the space is,

On the quoted part though don't be daft, where have I said that?

 

[Stobzilla]

And I feel like nothing is being mentioned about my guys when they do break forward as well. Batistuta, Pele, Rivaldo and Masopust and Gerrard supporting from deep ? Everyone concedes that Rivaldo can pull left and Gerrard can support on the right while attacking and given the spaces you are leaving it would be feeding time when we counter attack.

 

[Gio]

Tbh my team is getting so much more criticism and scrutiny that Stobz its getting ridiculous. Most posts seem to be trying to find a reason for saying his side will work and there has barely been any scrutiny at all

I'd say there's two reasons for that. First, Stobz hasn't been around a lot so posters are happy to pitch in to keep some balance to the debate. Second, Stobz hasn't made any contestable claims of note, whereas you have, which has prompted the discussion.

 

[Stobzilla]

I'm not going to change your mind so we just disagree then, for me watching teams who play narrow formations there is always space to exploit out wide, whether its Milan or Juventus or whoever. If you're stocked in the middle then out wide is where the space is,

On the quoted part though don't be daft, where have I said that?

I am giving you the space out there, if you try and cut inside then Jairzinho is going to have a lot on his plate to get past Briegel and then Forster even if he does. Same but for the other side as well and Carlos' attacking contribution, although capable of the spectacular, was hardly what you could call consistent.

 

[Theon]

I'd say there's two reasons for that. First, Stobz hasn't been around a lot so posters are happy to pitch in to keep some balance to the debate. Second, Stobz hasn't made any contestable claims of note, whereas you have, which has prompted the discussion.

Seems like a big drawback of putting effort into the write up. You can always debate things so if thats the approach it would be better to write nothing

 

[Thisistheone]

I'd say there's two reasons for that. First, Stobz hasn't been around a lot so posters are happy to pitch in to keep some balance to the debate. Second, Stobz hasn't made any contestable claims of note, whereas you have, which has prompted the discussion.

It's Friday. Still waiting for Stobz to get pissed up and then the contestable claims will start.

 

[Theon]

I am giving you the space out there, if you try and cut inside then Jairzinho is going to have a lot on his plate to get past Briegel and then Forster even if he does. Same but for the other side as well and Carlos' attacking contribution, although capable of the spectacular, was hardly what you could call consistent.

Carlos stretching the pitch is about as consistent as you can get - its his entire game.

He has his faults defensively but using his pace and bombing up the pitch is just exactly what he does for the entire match

 

[Stobzilla]

Carlos stretching the pitch is about as consistent as you can get - its his entire game.

He has his faults defensively but using his pace and bombing up the pitch is just exactly what he does for the entire match

Is true, but as I say, you can have it out wide if you want, in order for you to take advantage of it I feel like you would need someone to cross to, Ronaldo isn't that, and getting cut backs from the by-line wont work if we are compact in the middle see Monday Night.

 

[antohan]

I'm not going to change your mind so we just disagree then, for me watching teams who play narrow formations there is always space to exploit out wide, whether its Milan or Juventus or whoever. If you're stocked in the middle then out wide is where the space is,

On the quoted part though don't be daft, where have I said that?

You haven't. My point is you are focusing so much on the mighty Bobby Carlos you haven't even looked at your best players on the park. Odd.

 

[antohan]

Seems like a big drawback of putting effort into the write up. You can always debate things so if thats the approach it would be better to write nothing

Don't go there. People had a problem with me going there in my last game. You are right though.

Gio does have a point thoguh that in Stobz' absence vs an active manager with an AM more active than the rival manager at times there is an inclination to balance things out.

 

[antohan]

Is true, but as I say, you can have it out wide if you want, in order for you to take advantage of it I feel like you would need someone to cross to, Ronaldo isn't that, and getting cut backs from the by-line wont work if we are compact in the middle see Monday Night.

Indeed. Very much the problem I see, and why I see no need for Charles there.

 

[Theon]

Probably could have spoken about Maradona more but everyone knows how great he was, same with Pele who hasn't been mentioned much either. Both equally brilliant and both will get credit for that with the voters.

I did say this on Maradona though which I think is true, we had a big debate in the Iso thread on getting the best out of Diego with Baggio and Iniesta, so this follows on from that - basically IMO by stretching the pitch both horizontally with the wingers and vertically with Ronaldo, Maradona will have the perfect platform to own the game and get involved as much as possible.

For Maradona - 1) wingers are stretching the pitch providing glorious passing opportunities and creating space for Maradona to play in, and 2) the huge threat of Ronaldo getting behind is forcing Stob to sit deep and further opening the game for Maradona to take control.

The pitch is at its absolute biggest here and Maradona has complete freedom to work his magic.

 

[Thisistheone]

Don't go there. People had a problem with me going there in my last game. You are right though.

Gio does have a point thoguh that in Stobz' absence vs an active manager with an AM more active than the rival manager at times there is an inclination to balance things out.

Is a fair point that I'm very aware of. I'm holding back as well. Really don't want to come across as "ganging up" on Stobz. Now, if we were playing you on the other hand...

But I will say, Theon's put a lot of effort into his write-up.

 

[Theon]

Indeed. Very much the problem I see, and why I see no need for Charles there.

You know better than I do that Jairzinho and Ronaldinho weren't just crossers

 

[Thisistheone]

Stob mate, it's almost time to crack open a couple of frosty cold ones...

Epic. Whatever that is. But it sounds good.

 

[Stobzilla]

Just as a reminder we all know about the goals, but there is the slight problem of this man, with no one approaching Keane's quality covering him.

 

[Stobzilla]

Pick that one out Banks.

 

[antohan]

Probably could have spoken about Maradona more but everyone knows how great he was, same with Pele who hasn't been mentioned much either. Both equally brilliant and both will get credit for that with the voters.

I did say this on Maradona though which I think is true, we had a big debate in the Iso thread on getting the best out of Diego with Baggio and Iniesta, so this follows on from that - basically IMO by stretching the pitch both horizontally with the wingers and vertically with Ronaldo, Maradona will have the perfect platform to own the game and get involved as much as possible.

For Maradona - 1) wingers are stretching the pitch providing glorious passing opportunities and creating space for Maradona to play in, and 2) the huge threat of Ronaldo getting behind is forcing Stob to sit deep and further opening the game for Maradona to take control.

The pitch is at its absolute biggest here and Maradona has complete freedom to work his magic.

Worth mentioning that, no? Particularly when every post bumps the thread and bumping the thread works in your favour. You sure win on sex appeal.

 

[antohan]

You know better than I do that Jairzinho and Ronaldinho weren't just crossers

I mentioned that in reference to your Carlos hard on, he is the least dangerous chap out there, no point worrying too much about whether Gerrard picks him up or not and how disciplined he is at it. Just take it as a bonus that Lahm and Gerrard are both busy out wide.

Your last post on stretching horizontally and vertically actually is the best argument you've put forward all game. Guess what will happen there on top of Maradona having room? There will be room for him to pick out Jairzinho and Ronnie cutting inside. Now we're talking!

 

[Stobzilla]

I have to leave now. Might as well just concede. WP Theon.

 

[Fergus' son]

The idea that one formation is naturally at a disadvantage to another is silly IMO.

We need to find a way of making these match threads more fun and interesting and less boring and tedious!

 

[Thisistheone]

The idea that one formation is naturally at a disadvantage to another is silly IMO.

We need to find a way of making these match threads more fun and interesting and less boring and tedious!

No it's not. Otherwise everyone in the Premiership would just play 442. Why did smaller teams start playing 541? And why has 4231 emerged as a standard formation? Cos it has advantages over 442.

 

[Cutch]

I have to leave now. Might as well just concede. WP Theon.

Bit early for that!

 

[Fergus' son]

Why would everyone play 442? Makes no sense at all.

If only management was so easy that you look at what formation the opposition has, then pick from a list of 'superior formations' and bobs your uncle.

 

[Gio]

I've gone for Stobz. I can see Theon's top-heavy side performing much like the Galacticos, hammering teams in style then coming a cropper against gritty opposition. And while there is a clear arrangement in place to deal with Maradona and an in-cutting Ronaldinho, it's less apparent how Rivaldo and Pele will be stopped in the space between Theon's midfield and defence. I see that as the biggest and therefore the most decisive mismatch on the park.

 

[Thisistheone]

Why would everyone play 442? Makes no sense at all.

If only management was so easy that you look at what formation the opposition has, then pick from a list of 'superior formations' and bobs your uncle.

There's no such thing as "superior formations" but every formation has it's strengths and weaknesses against other formations. Depending on the personal deployed, obviously.

If you came into a draft thread like this and seen a diamond vs a 4231 you wouldn't think the diamond has a disadvantage in the wide area's?

 

[Fergus' son]

There's no such thing as "superior formations" but every formation has it's strengths and weaknesses against other formations. Depending on the personal deployed, obviously.

If you came into a draft thread like this and seen a diamond vs a 4231 you wouldn't think the diamond has a disadvantage in the wide area's?

Well you've tried to narrow it down to 'in the wide areas' but my answer to that question is no.

 

[Stobzilla]

Crisis averted. I might as well see this through to the bloody end.

 

[Theon]

Well you've tried to narrow it down to 'in the wide areas' but my answer to that question is no.

Get real, of course it would - one side would have wingers and the other wouldn't.

If you saw a 4-5-1 against a 4-4-2 then the former would have an advantage in the middle because they have an extra man there. It's not rocket science.

 

[Thisistheone]

Well you've tried to narrow it down to 'in the wide areas' but my answer to that question is no.

Come on mate. Play a 235 in your next draft then and see what happens.

Will Mourinho play a 235 against Bayern tonight? Cause he won't. He'd be mental.

 

[Fergus' son]

Get real, of course it would - one side would have wingers and the other wouldn't.

If you saw a 4-5-1 against a 4-4-2 then the former would have an advantage in the middle because they have an extra man there. It's not rocket science.

Exactly, so one formation isn't inherently superior to the other. Perhaps it's your AM that needs to get real.

 

[Fergus' son]

Come on mate. Play a 235 in your next draft then and see what happens.

Will Mourinho play a 235 against Bayern tonight? Cause he won't. He'd be mental.

That's absurd.

See your managers post for an explanation as to how one formation isn't inherently superior to the other, each have certain advantages.

 

[Theon]

I've gone for Stobz. I can see Theon's top-heavy side performing much like the Galacticos, hammering teams in style then coming a cropper against gritty opposition. And while there is a clear arrangement in place to deal with Maradona and an in-cutting Ronaldinho, it's less apparent how Rivaldo and Pele will be stopped in the space between Theon's midfield and defence. I see that as the biggest and therefore the most decisive mismatch on the park.

What are the clear arrangements? You're reading what you want to read. The only plan for Maradona is that Keane is on him which is no different to me saying Tigana and Xavi are sitting deep around Pele, with Batistuta not possessing a huge threat in behind in the way Ronaldo is the defensive line is sitting higher than Stobz and further restricting the space for Pele.

As I also said in the thread the lack of a wide threat means the fullbacks are tucking in because there is no threat on the flanks, which again further reduced the space to play through.

'Keane on Maradona' isn't a plan.

As for Rivaldo everyone on here has said that he will be drifting to the left, and in the OP it says that Amoros will mark him when he does. That is just as much as plan as anything on the other team.

 

[Fergus' son]

I've gone for Stobz. I can see Theon's top-heavy side performing much like the Galacticos, hammering teams in style then coming a cropper against gritty opposition. And while there is a clear arrangement in place to deal with Maradona and an in-cutting Ronaldinho, it's less apparent how Rivaldo and Pele will be stopped in the space between Theon's midfield and defence. I see that as the biggest and therefore the most decisive mismatch on the park.

Indeed, my thoughts too.

 

[Theon]

Exactly, so one formation isn't inherently superior to the other. Perhaps it's your AM that needs to get real.

But you said 'your answer to that question was no' - there would be an advantage out wide though, the same way another tactic might have an advantage in the middle, or if you play 5 at the back then you might have an advantage in defence etc.

 

[Moby]

Crisis averted. I might as well see this through to the bloody end.

Just 2 votes in it!

 

[Fergus' son]

But you said 'your answer to that question was no' - there would be an advantage out wide though, the same way another tactic might have an advantage in the middle, or if you play 5 at the back then you might have an advantage in defence etc.

Well it depends, I don't really think having extra men in one area of the pitch will automatically give you an advantage there if you're more vulnerable/weak in another part, that was my whole point, that the small differences in formations tend to balance each other out and it's the personelle that actually makes the difference.

Saying things like 'the Xmas tree is vulnerable out wide' is bullshit IMO, as long as you have players to press into those positions it doesn't make it any more vulnerable than a 442 or a 4231. In fact, I'd rather have a Gerrard/Masopust helping my fullbacks than certain traditional wingers like Ronaldinho or Jairzinho!