Think everyone is aware of how great he is to be honest. You could probably put him as RB or CF and get some great contributions from him, still doesn't make it his best position (which is all anyone said).
Decades Draft Tournament : VP vs Isotope
- Thread starter Moby
- Start date
Chaps, I'm signing off for now. Page five and VP hasn't been around since the first one 
Will wait to hear from him tomorrow.
Will wait to hear from him tomorrow.
Bizarre post. I've said he'd be at his best anywhere in the attacking third barring the primary goal scorer probably. It is not about "getting a contribution", I am saying you would get a "maradona at his best" in this setup. Him being few yards rightwards is not at all enough to disqualify that specially when he has versatile players like Iniesta with him who can easily accommodate himself according to Diego's needs! If there is a player who is clearly not having a great game, it is Baggio. Not Maradona!
Ok let's agree to disagree, I think everyone bar you has agreed that he would be better if Maradona was in his preferred central position, as a general point. Everyone has also agreed that Baggio is definitely not the best teammate for him, but that has been resolved by telling Baggio to feck off and do whatever Maradona wants him to do.
Fine, not ideal at all IMO and it probably cost iso my vote so it was worth mentioning.
Fine, not ideal at all IMO and it probably cost iso my vote so it was worth mentioning.
And I gave Iso my vote mainly because of Maradona. Not how I would play him but he'd still comfortably take the game by storm.
Fair enough. No biggie, mate.
For me the difference here is Maradona is still the key player and the one being given the ball at every opportunity. With Pelé as the #10 you're then giving him more responsibility and marginalising Maradona in a way that's not taking place here. If Maradona was being asked to play an orthodox wide role then yeah, he'd be being misused but everything Isotope has said suggests he and Baggio have the freedom to drift wherever they like to do what they do. Inevitably Maradona would be at the centre of things. He's started from a wide position dozens (if not hundreds) of times - for club and country. It's not an issue at all as long as the team is still being built around him.
The only issue I can see here is if Isotope has told the team that Maradona and Baggio are on an equal footing and should receive a similar amount of the ball.
Not sure if it was even Pele to be honest, can't remember.
I dont think isotope has actually specified what the situation is regarding the two of them or how they are actually all meant to work together, still a bit of a problem for me if Baggio is left doing nothing and is completely subordinate to Diego, will be almost like having a man down surely?
Yep, which is why I haven't ruled out the possibility that Baggio is in fact still playing a key role in Iso's team. I'll not vote until I get a sense of which way that's going. At this stage I'd personally take the hit and say Baggio - like Sócrates - is playing in a team that isn't built around him and because of that he'll be on the periphery, simply playing a supporting role by finding the better midfielder in good positions with clever, selfless passes. Baggio won't be a happy bunny but he might let it go for one game.
The situation isn't comparable to Socrates IMO - he has free reign in that AM position behind Ruud
That would be the best course of action I think. I would just put Baggio out on the right and let everyone moan about that whilst Iniesta on the left and Mardona central looking to be in their ideal positions will make up for it comfortably.
I think the whole initial formation that iso had was concocted to try and make it seem like Baggio will play a vital role in the game so I was reluctant to accept the notion that Baggio was to be sacrificed for Maradonas benefit until it came (or comes) from isotope himself (as opposed to Aldo or anyone else).
What for, though? you've already made up your mind.
Sócrates is playing in a system which he's essentially useless in as far as I'm concerned. Whether Maradona's on the right or Sócrates is in the middle on a static image is largely irrelevant for me, it's about the role they're playing as the game develops - Maradona's in the thick of things and Sócrates is in no-man's land. VP has already said the same indirectly:
As you said yourself this is going to be the obvious tactic for his team. Sócrates has nothing to do with that kind of style of play. Even in his ideal style of play he was liable to drift through games making a few fancy touches and little else. In this he's just drifting about doing nothing. He's just another fancy name.
I haven't.
If you want to win over the remaining voters, that's how I would personally go about it. Feel free not to do so.
Not sure why you think that, he might be a fancy name but he's still a great player and given the freedom he has in that area of the pitch he is guaranteed to be involeved.
You've quoted VP there but I guess we'll wait till tomorrow for him to confirm - I suspect he will say that Socrates has a big role to play picking up the ball in front of the defence and running at Makelele or slipping through passes to Ronaldo/Ruud/Gento.
I don't think this all rests on Scholes, Socrates isn't a bad passer himself is he and he is playing in a different area.
I mean this just seems so over the top. How will he be useless? If Scholes and Deschamps are sitting with the former dictating from deep then he has the freedom to get into so many dangerous areas.
Gento and Ronaldo are stretching the pitch to attack a narrow team - Socrates could be absolutely vital in this game with all that space.
I did say both freely roaming behind Shevchenko, where it means more on the attacking third. Although they both are no. 10, I think it's fairly obvious that from their nature of style, Maradona is more likely to get involved in the build up than Baggio. That's what actually make him up there as one of two all time best player.
I don't think Socrates-Scholes-Deschamp can stop Maradona-Baggio-Iniesta running at their midfield; where Ronaldo would just stand there with hands on hip. Then you have Coluna who can support defence and attack.
It's Sócrates. He is what he is. It may seem silly to say about a player with such obvious skill and intelligence but he's essentially one-dimensional and a team based on wingplay is not that dimension. The two are just incompatible.
VP, any thoughts on the several pages of discussion since you left?
yea lot of discussion to wake up to, thought I was cruising at 7-1. I didn't expect people to take that formations image so literally. Deschamps will naturally be the deepest and Socrates the most advanced. But there will be lot of fluidity.
People seem to forget that Scholes was part of arguably the greatest 2 man midfield in the game. You can't do that without being solid defensively. He'll provide lot of support to Deschamps.
That was just one example of what could happen to highlight Isotope's lack of width. It could easily be Deschamps passing to Socrates who runs with the ball then puts it through to Ronaldo. Gento and Ronaldo are not going to be just hugging the touchline, they'll cut in, interchange, it's going to be very dynamic and Socrates will have plenty of options to work his magic.
So Scholes was a box-to-box midfielder in one of the greatest two-man midfields in the game? Getting SAF on board as player-manager was a better move than I thought 
Not just being a smart arse, I mean that in the nicest possible way. Seriously, that was quite a coup.
Not just being a smart arse, I mean that in the nicest possible way. Seriously, that was quite a coup.
I'd say Iniesta is better placed to support Makalele than Coluna, which is not the way Iso is playing this. Roles of Baggio and Maradona also overlap. I think their sole point of attack would be through the middle with scant balls in from the wings/headers. Though they have great individual talents, they might be impeded by a overdrowded final third esp directly in front of the goal (and Deschamps/Scholes in the same area are no pushovers either).
VP has Deschamps with Scholes supporting him, Socrates as AM gives makes them enough of a threat in the middle. With Ronaldo roaming both wide & centre and Evra's additional width support to Gento provides enough opprtunities to threaten from wings giving them versatality in attack. I think Team VP shades it.
VP has Deschamps with Scholes supporting him, Socrates as AM gives makes them enough of a threat in the middle. With Ronaldo roaming both wide & centre and Evra's additional width support to Gento provides enough opprtunities to threaten from wings giving them versatality in attack. I think Team VP shades it.
No vote though? Lying fruit cake.
So Scholes was a box-to-box midfielder in one of the greatest two-man midfields in the game? Getting SAF on board as player-manager was a better move than I thought
Not just being a smart arse, I mean that in the nicest possible way. Seriously, that was quite a coup.
Thought there'd be enough of a lead for him to bring himself on for a cheeky runout.
Not yet. Just my 2 cents. Waiting to see if Iso will respond before casting my final judgement.He's fine on the bench mate, probably the most influential sub we've had in all games so far! It's quite refreshing to have something coming from left field every now and then.
I think he is sleeping, or drunk. Apparently got his dream job today. I'm inclined to vote him out so he stops faffing around with this and focuses on nailing that job from Day 1.
Diego's looking for the VP voters for some sniff sniff.
I'm not having much trouble imagining Maradona doing the playmaking and Baggio being more than happy playing closer to the penalty area and hunting for goals.
He was a fantastic finisher and was very direct when the situation called for it. I don't think he'd have any problem whatsoever leaving the deeper playmaking to Iniesta and Maradona. There's even a fair few headers in there!
He was a fantastic finisher and was very direct when the situation called for it. I don't think he'd have any problem whatsoever leaving the deeper playmaking to Iniesta and Maradona. There's even a fair few headers in there!
This is becoming very close. Another Sir Alex team not doing it the easy way.
I think people are seriously underestimating the strength of Gento, Ronaldo and van Nistelrooy.
Gento for example was capable of this:
I think people are seriously underestimating the strength of Gento, Ronaldo and van Nistelrooy.
Gento for example was capable of this:
Gento was quality but he's also one of the finest examples of a frustrating winger. Inconsistent, careless, sometimes brainless and often a nightmare for the striker. If you had a selfless player on the right that was providing a consistent stream of balls into the box for van Nistelrooy it wouldn't be an issue but as it is I don't see van Nistelrooy terrorizing anyone. Ronaldo and van Nistelrooy just weren't a particularly good combination and I don't see the midfield trio as a cohesive unit either. Isotope's team isn't getting the best out of everyone as they're getting in each others' way but they're all playing the same style of football.
Great player, think it was brwned who described him as a 'footballing dynasty' during the last draft.
If I did it was quoted from another source! Might've been antohan. Either way it's a great way to describe him. He's the Spanish Giggs that happened to be just as influential for an even more dominant team.
The goal's magical.
The goal's magical.
From where I see it mate, your trio up front would surely do some real damage, no question. I've loved it all along and it is devastating, but it is a shame that you have players I personally don't rate among the best to carry out the backstage role. Your team would have been perfect if you had the players capable of defending deep and restricting Iso to a minimum and hitting them on the break which your attack is perfect for. Iso will surely have the lion's share of possession and while Deschamps and co are gonna do their best, I don't see them keeping the opposition out for long. If you had a better defensive setup, something on the lines of what Fergus had, it would have been really better. As said before, I also find Socrates a bit redundant here. Instead of him if there was a top DM or alternatively a top CB with Sammer alongside Deschamps with Scholes as the most advanced CM starting attacks, that would have been more balanced as well as playing to the strengths of your attack. I do rate Scholesy's closing down and general defensive work highly despite him having a poor disciplinary record (that is dangerous, you cannot concede many free kicks against Maradona) but I don't think it would be enough of a support for Didier to keep out what Iso is throwing at you.
At the end of the day, you are getting counters going and little is going to stop your firepower but with the large share of possession and not enough resistance, IMO Iso will outscore you.
At the end of the day, you are getting counters going and little is going to stop your firepower but with the large share of possession and not enough resistance, IMO Iso will outscore you.
It was you! Definitely think some of the older players in the draft get underrated but it's to be expected I suppose...
Still only two votes in it!
I think it's the quite opposite. The older and less documented the player is the less likely you are to come across his weaknesses, bad patches, off field disturbances etc. Most of the time the documentaries feature their high points, achievements and compliments by colleagues that portray them as flawless. The more recent the player is the more likely he is to get criticized. People berate Cristiano Ronaldo for getting owned by Barca and winning nothing but one league in 4 years while you have players with similar achevements, awards, stats from yester years that are treated like gods. There's no way around it, unless you did watch the week in week out. Plus most of the time international laurels completely overshadow any limitations the players had domestically as contrary to the modern day analysis which takes every game played by the player on the same level. Many find Cannavaro overrated because he bombed at Madrid and think he's glorified for putting one brilliant shift in a 7 game tournament but you have the likes of Moore which are celebrated in the all time bracket for not doing much different! At times it is nostalgia, at times just the romanticism, but I do firmly believe that older players get overrated a lot more than they get underrated!
I do see your point but unless they are a well known name from the past, I think they get a bit underrated. Modern names get unfair criticism too however, you're right.
Nah I think the oldies are ridiculously. Most of us know of them through highlights or documentaries
Anyway how much longer? The gaffer's getting restless..
Thanks, Aldo. Easy to see that my team will have many share of possession. It's been the marking of all my teams in all draft. It's just this time I have players to make them count in Maradona, Baggio, Iniesta, and Shevchenko. As Pat_Mustard said, they all are also intelligent and team players, who has no problem in understanding their roles on the pitch. Contrast to VP's RvN - Ronaldo - Gento who are more of opportunist, as Brwned pointed out.
I have Makelele and Coluna in midfield to support defence. Also, Bobby Moore is easily one of top 5 best all time centerback, better than any VP cb is. Krol is easily one of top 10 best all time fullback, where any VP fullback is never close to it. Gentile is one of the best man marking all time. Although Zoff is the better Gk than Neuer, but Neuer isn't a mug either. He's definitely better than Reina, who had no problem getting into the Final of last time CL draft.
But as Anto suggested, maybe it's best if I'm opted out because of certain circumstance
; and you guys can plunder my Maradona. Although look more likely that I don't have a choice anyway.
I have Makelele and Coluna in midfield to support defence. Also, Bobby Moore is easily one of top 5 best all time centerback, better than any VP cb is. Krol is easily one of top 10 best all time fullback, where any VP fullback is never close to it. Gentile is one of the best man marking all time. Although Zoff is the better Gk than Neuer, but Neuer isn't a mug either. He's definitely better than Reina, who had no problem getting into the Final of last time CL draft.
But as Anto suggested, maybe it's best if I'm opted out because of certain circumstance
; and you guys can plunder my Maradona. Although look more likely that I don't have a choice anyway.