Havertz is shite. The sooner you have Partey or an actual CM in there and you stop persisting with Jesus/Nketiah and get an actual striker you'll be fine.
Declan Rice | Arsenal £105m player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
He's injured? Arteta rates him quite highly.
It is not about form. He is playing like he always have. Sideways and backwards. Those few attempts playing ball forward resulted in about 80% wrong passes. Difference is that when you lose, fans start to look deeper how you play. When you win, nobody cares how you perform. Right now your front men are not scoring enough to disguise how Rice actually plays. Your strong line is forward line inclusive Havertz and Odegaard. When it dosen't work offensively or defensively you are in trouble.
Yeh think Arteta was overthinking Havertz. Jesus is very important to our build up play but agree we need to get rid of Nketiah and get a more clinical striker.
I'd give you that Rodri is as if not more important, but an element of that is because they have no one who is nearly adequate as a back up. Where as they have plenty of creative players.
What you see when De Bruyne is missing though and now also Haaland, is teams are a bit less scared of them and start to realise they can counter and hurt City if they break through the initial press, because Rodri can't be in 2-3 places at once, no matter how good he is.
Silva, Gundogan etc. Are/were important because they will actually get in and about Rodri so he isn't left on his own to cover stupidly large areas, and will drop back in possession so Rodri isn't the only thing linking the defence to the attack. This is something Ten Hag and United fail to even really attempt to do, and why whoever is in Casemiro's role this season looks like they are drowning. The idea Casemiro in the space of a few months has gone from one of the best players of his era in this role, to being completely crap at it, is silly. Last season he had Eriksen or Fred covering half the width of the pitch for him. This season he's had no one. I can't think of any single player whk you could put in that position in the current United team, with how ETH sets them up, who wouldn’t struggle badly.
Which is the point I'm making with Rice. I think he's done fine but if Arsenal are serious about winning the league, playing Havertz next to him is going to be a problem. City barely get away with it with Rodri and not only is he better than Rice but City also have better players and are more disciplined into playing that kind of set up than Arsenal are. I think it's been evident in most of Arsenal's games and now it is starting to affect the results. They've had others like the United game where only marginal moments of luck have saved them from giving away cheap points due to their midfield being too open.
I only brought Casemiro into the equation because i think he's got a lot more to his game than Rice, and yet struggles when put in a similar situation (albeit not helped by the whole team and tactics at United being a garbage dump).
Some of the comments in this thread make me think Arsenal fans see Rice as this magical younger super Casemiro/Rodri type midfielder, because that's what their current set up would need him to be....but not only is he not this, I'm not really sure who is. Ultimately I think Arteta needs to change his approach and Havertz needs to be repla ed by someone who'll support Rice more....because from what I've seen the rest of them are hard working and disciplined enough to make it work.
Again I'm not comparing in terms of who is or isn't better here, but Carrick is the best United player I can remember in the Rice type role, and he would always have a Scholes/Fletcher/Giggs/Anderson/Cleverley in the team with him. Someone who would drop back into the hole rather than spend the game acting like a second no10, and who wouldn't randomly disappear for 10+ minutes every half.
Rice is not the only one the last couple of games who has given the ball away cheaply. Everyone has. Our usually fluid and slick passing has abandoned us. The team as a whole is in poor form. Rice is finally showing a dip in form since joining us, that is completely normal. Before the last two games, everyone was creaming themselves over him, just read this thread before 2-3 weeks ago.
If yet another loss by twice the team United is with him playing well CAN'T tell you he'd offer no solutions to United's current malaise at the price he was bought. Nothing will
Not everyone and I have been open about that. For me he is so overrated and he should be behind players like Jorginho and Partey when they come back. Of course that will not happen because someone at your club decided to throw away 100+m on the player. He is ok player but that is pretty much it. Nothing extra. He might some day become very good or great but he got long way to be that.
The more you lose the more people will start thinking what does he actually bring to your team. If you go back to winning form they will forget that it is because of your forward line and give all credit on Rice which I find strange.
£105 million a lot of money for slow lateral passes. Little evidence he's better player/midfielder than Arsenal already had last season.
Maybe everyone but you then.
Don't think there's an Arsenal fan I know not delighted with him in general.
As strange as you saying if you go back to winning form it's not because of Rice but the forward line yet when they're losing its the fault of Rice and not the forward line who have been rubbish this season?
Rice has the same number of goal contributions as Martinelli and Jesus this season in the league. Only one less than Havertz and two less than Nketiah. Saka is the only forward putting up decent numbers.
When you are winning people tend to be delighted. If you start losing people start to write differently about you. You've seen this forum and what people write about our own players. From hero to zero. Or other way around.Maybe everyone but you then.
Don't think there's an Arsenal fan I know not delighted with him in general.
I don't think Arsenal fans are turning their backs on him after 2 poor games. Of course on a forum like this he'll be copping it, as expected, and people will say he's not worth what we paid for.
He has been unused sub for last 3 games and started against PSV. Arteta just doesn't like to partner rice and Jorginho
If that is the case, how come people are not making McTominay a 100+m player looking at goals he scored for us and for his country this year? Not that easy, right?
Everybody knows that Arsenal is winning when their attacking line produce. In both ways. So I'm not only talking about attacking production. How many times haven't they won ball back with pressure from their forward line? Jesus is very good at it. So when or if they start playing like that again it will be because of them. Not players further back.
He probably isn't quite ready to come back and Arteta didn't want to risk him. He got injured before the Brighton game (around Dec 18). Personally I've always felt Arteta rated Jorginho highly and he played next to Rice before he got injured.
Would have taken him but not for 100m. He was suppose to take them to the next level but I think they havent improved.
Been shocking the last few games. Probably just a downturn in form; not really the best time to be going through that though.
I just don't see the same energy from you to Jesus, Martinelli, Havertz etc. @90 + 5min as you have towards Rice when he's been better than all of them this season in the league. You don't rate him, that's fine, but your bias is showing.
He’s better than Jorginho (though not Jorginho in his prime - I wish we could have signed him when he joined Chelsea). He’s also better defensively than Partey, though not as good going forwards. Which is to be expected as the both play the same position, but Partey was formerly a B2B midfielder and Rice was a CB.
His last two games have been poor, but we weren’t winning games earlier in the season because of our front line. We were winning them primarily because of our CB pairing and then Rice’s performance as the next latest contributing factor. If we had to pick a Player of the Season so far, I think he’d be 3rd behind Saliba and Gabriel.
I think Havertz can adjust his game, but that would be a bit of an odd move. If we want to play the likes of Douglas Luiz there… why didn’t we buy Douglas Luiz? I’m sure the £65m we dropped on Havertz could have got him ahead of this excellent start to the season he’s had which will have pushed his price up considerably.
Personally that's all I think it is. He's been at least 7/10 in the games before West Ham. He's so important to how we play that any huge dip in form means the team goes down a level or two also. Not dissimilar to when Rodri is unavailable for City.
I've never rated Rice myself and think Arsenal were shafted by WH. But his over-rating of McT is hilarious and he brings him into every conversation about Rice.
Yet also extremely dissimilar. Because Rice isn’t unavailable.
Because nobody is saying that they are 100m players.
For me, Odegaard is your main player. Then it is attacking line as a unit. I can’t understand why Jesus don’t play more. He should be on the pitch 90 min every game. He is not a nice player to play against in every way and form.
When it comes to your team you need to change formation if you want Rice to improve as a player. Right now he is getting help from your inverted fullbacks but that is not something to go with in longer run. He needs someone who he can learn from. Jorginho would be excellent and so would Partey.
Yes but my point was that they're both so integral to their teams that when they're not there or aren't playing well, it affects the team more than if other players went missing.
I just don’t see the comparison between a player who is so good his team goes down a notch when he’s unavailable and a player whose team goes down a notch with him still in it. I do rate Rice, though, and I think Arsenal’s recent dip is down to a lot more than just him playing badly.
An argument can be made that his replacement at West Ham Edson Alvarez is no worse than him. He's overrated and Arsenal overpaid.
Seriously underestimating Arsenal fans ability to be fickle.
His dip in form has been a big reason, which is why we've looked more open. He doesn't seem to be intercepting or covering quite as much ground as he was a few weeks ago. It's normal and part of football. That being said, the biggest reason for our losses has been lack of creativity and poor finishing. Against West Ham we did more than enough to at least score but couldn't finish. Today we didn't carve out too many chances. Worryingly our attackers bar maybe Odegaard seem to also be having huge form dips.
I don’t see a lot of naming and shaming from Arse fans this past week.
Wait, what - did they actually "name and shame" people who said Declan fecking Rice is massively overrated and they got absolutely shafted by WH
Yep.Wait, what - did they actually "name and shame" people who said Declan fecking Rice is massively overrated and they got absolutely shafted by WH
Life comes at you fast.
Oh dear.
He didn't play badly against West Ham though. He might not have been at his absolute best but it was a pretty standard Declan Rice performance. He delivered roughly what you'd expect.
Which is the problem. What Rice gives you isn't enough in that type of game. Certainly not when you take the fee into consideration.
Which is the problem. What Rice gives you isn't enough in that type of game. Certainly not when you take the fee into consideration.
A very weak argument.
Like most things in football, it’s about how the unit functions.
Last season Arteta played with two real pivots and Odegaard in front. Now Rice has to do a lot more defensive work by himself, when he has Odegaard and Havertz in front of him. A 6 plus two 10s.
I have zero doubt he is a top, top player, but he doesn’t have a reliable midfield partner. There’s only so much one player can do.
Look how United look so much better with Mainoo and Eriksen, or preseason Casemiro and Mainoo. When played Casemiro or Mainoo plus walkabout McT, or Mount and Bruno, they get destroyed alone.
West Ham have Ward-Prowse and Paqueta with Alvarez. Who both get through a lot of work in the midfield.
If we had spent the Antony and Mount money on Rice and Olise, which financially is like for like, we’d be a completely different team. Top four comfortably I’d say.
It's their forward line..
Jesus is like firminho.. a creator .. passer .. assist maker ..
Saka is no Salah and neither is Martinelli..
They need somebody to score goals ..
Jesus is like firminho.. a creator .. passer .. assist maker ..
Saka is no Salah and neither is Martinelli..
They need somebody to score goals ..
Rice has numerous attributes but they can mostly be covered off by others who are perhaps less all-round capable but better in specialist functions within a well-constructed team. That's what Moyes has done and WHU are undeniably stronger for it.
There was always some incredulity that he'd choose Arsenal if either Liverpool or Man City were interested - both have vastly superior coaches and players, but the way Arteta has tinkered with his team has made it look stranger. Rice alongside Xhaka or Partey would be a much better player than the one Arteta is using.
Frankly Rice would still be alone in midfield at United just like he is at Arsenal. On top of being abused day and night for being bought for too much at the expense of other parts of the side.
Well, he wouldn’t be if paired with Mainoo, Casemiro or Eriksen, all of whom’s games revolve around sitting deeper. If paired with McT, Amrabat or Mount he would be. But I’d assume if we bought Rice we wouldn’t have bought the other two.
I do agree that the tactics are the problem here though. If that’s indeed what you are saying.
We saw that when Mainoo and Eriksen are on the field, they naturally sit deeper and in the center. When others enter, they go marauding all over the place, which I am sure is part their natural inclination and big part their instructions. You can’t do that so much with Eriksen and Casemiro because they just aren’t those sorts of players.
The best thing that can happen to us while ETH is in charge, is only Casemiro, Eriksen and Mainoo being fit. Because then he is forced to play an actual midfield. His rare successes this season have come by being forced to play a system he doesn’t want to. When he has his preferred players available, we turn to shite. McT and Antony being chief culprits of our invisible midfield and attack.
We have literally played with a lone pivot all season and have had a shocking injury list. He'd have spent a huge chunk of the period Mainoo has been out with Mctominay as his partner in chief or an Amrabat not yet ready to swim in EPL waters. With everyone else out injured.
Our fans would be roasting them daily for the lack of creativity. Especially because of his Fee.
If we had bought only Rice, our situation would be even worse! For Bruno and Scott alone would have been our ONLY other fit midfielders. Meaning Mejbri and Gore would be the ones he'd be leading into battle in EPL and Europe during inevitable suspension absence for the other two. Fans would be blaming him for that thank to his transfer fee and over pricing same way they blame Antony. Abusing him for not being a Rodri.