Declan Rice

[DJBillRemfry]

The obsessive counting of irrelevant or overly-regarded statistics is a quirk of modern life.

We used to see the statistics that used to say that Rice had the most 'progressive carries' in Europe when he was at West Ham. After a while the questions moved to:

a) well, where's he starting from?
b) where's he going to?
c) what does it actually lead to?
d) would we be better off quickly passing the ball forward instead of holding onto it, which is what we do now?

 

[Chipper]

Progressive passes and all that nonsens has nothing to do with reality and how games are played. According to that it would mean that he is better than Fernandes or Rodri which is in my view ridiculous. There are lot of things to consider.

I would easy say that sideways and backwards are his game. It doesn't have to be bad. People need to understand that. What it means is that you can find those kind of players in pretty much every Premier League club and in so called defensive midfielder. To give 100+ m for that? Come on.

I don't understand the first sentence. You make a claim saying everything is sideways and backwards. I present a statistic to show this is untrue. The statistic which is a measurable aspect of reality has nothing to do with reality? Instead it's just nonsense?

No, according to that it doesn't mean that he's better than those players. Nobody said that. Having more completed forward passes over 10 yards than anyone else means he has more completed forward passes over 10 yard than anyone else. It means nothing else at all, and says nothing about a player's ability. It doesn't even say if it's a good thing! It's just something that is happening, that's all. The complete assessment of a footballer cannot not be based off one stat, and there are many intangibles that we can't even capture with stats.

He doesn't complete, or even attempt to play a great deal of through balls. I'd agree with that if that was the claim. He's never going to be leading the assists chart. Many of these forward passes are safer passes, but they're still going forward. So agree to disagree on everything being backwards or sideways I suppose?

 

[Lash]

Not his fault, he's still a very tidy player and helps Arsenal play high, but once again never worth 105m. Only if he was the final piece of the puzzle would he have been worth overpaying by that much.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Didn't watch the full game just saw some highlights. Think we dominated the first half and should have been ahead. Then when we conceded we just fell apart. We definitely created enough to win this game, but it's just not going in for us right now. Need a finisher in the team. Think this has to be the priority in transfer market.

That's pretty much how it was. You only limited them to two attempts in the first half, though one of them was TAA hitting the bar. In the 2nd it was more even. He was alright, not the problem, but not a solution when things aren't working. For me, he sits just between Partey and Xhaka, able to do both jobs, but not as good as either.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's pretty much how it was. You only limited them to two attempts in the first half, though one of them was TAA hitting the bar. In the 2nd it was more even. He was alright, not the problem, but not a solution when things aren't working. For me, he sits just between Partey and Xhaka, able to do both jobs, but not as good as either.

He’s certainly not as good as both of them combined. Which he would need to be, for Arsenal to be as good as last season when starting an absolute waste of space like Havertz.

 

[giorno]

That's pretty much how it was. You only limited them to two attempts in the first half, though one of them was TAA hitting the bar. In the 2nd it was more even. He was alright, not the problem, but not a solution when things aren't working. For me, he sits just between Partey and Xhaka, able to do both jobs, but not as good as either.

Nah, he's better than both in just about every way, Arsenal's problem is the forwards aren't playing well/finishing their dinner. How they failed to score today is beyond me

Granted, if the point is Partey+Xhaka was better than Rice+Havertz...well, that might actually have some merit

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Nah, he's better than both in just about every way,

Meh

 

[giorno]

Meh

It's Partey and Xhaka, not exactly Pirlo and Kante we're talking about here

 

[Rooney in Paris]

It's Partey and Xhaka, not exactly Pirlo and Kante we're talking about here

And also Declan Rice.

 

[giorno]

And also Declan Rice.

Who is actually a genuinely great player, unlike the other 2

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Yeah he's not. He's a good but limited player.

 

[NewGlory]

Sorry but comparing to Antony is ridiculous. Antony is a £30mil player at most, coming from a much poorer league. Rice was never going to go for under £60-70mil. He's an England international and has been one of the best midfielders in the league for years. We overpaid by £30-40mil while United overpaid by about £60.

Everything you are saying is true, but here's another perspective to consider: you got a dud of a player, we got a dud of a player. We payed £85 for our dud, you paid whopping £100... Does it really matter what "fair market value" was for either one of them? Once they are a dud, they are a dud ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[mathrait]

How has that gone for you then mate?

105M down the drain as Declan Rice passes sideways again.

Rice rice baby

I think Rice performing so poorly in the past month has indirectly led to me ordering an unnecessary rice cooker. Prick.

You have a really weird obsession with Rice

I don't understand the first sentence. You make a claim saying everything is sideways and backwards. I present a statistic to show this is untrue. The statistic which is a measurable aspect of reality has nothing to do with reality? Instead it's just nonsense?

People don't want to consider facts and stats that don't fit the narrative they have already constructed and committed to.

 

[cyberman]

So it's not sideways and backwards then?

Might as well be when it’s so far back.
He’s as limited in midfield as Antony is for us out wide. West Ham must be shitting themselves laughing at it all

 

[Hammondo]

Who is actually a genuinely great player, unlike the other 2

You think hes been the best of the 3?

 

[cyberman]

Not sure how people can watch us in the last few games and think Rice is our problem. We cannot hit a barn door at the moment and need to get a finisher in the team, quick. Bar the woeful performance against Fulham, we created enough chances against West Ham and Liverpool today to get something out of both games, or at the very least score a couple of goals.

6 goals conceded in last three games and all bar Fulham in patches you dominated.
I’ve said this before but Rice doesn’t offer much when you’re on the front foot, he naturally falls back and it leaves the midfield spread thin with space to run into. It was the same at West Ham, now they have a proactive midfield they are flying even though Rice was their best player. The amount of times they had their midfield overrun v similar to lower teams last season was a constant theme.
It happened with us and Casemiro for the first few games before he was injured and Casemiro got shit for it but at least he’s 31/32 odd. Rice is in his prime

 

[90 + 5min]

I don't understand the first sentence. You make a claim saying everything is sideways and backwards. I present a statistic to show this is untrue. The statistic which is a measurable aspect of reality has nothing to do with reality? Instead it's just nonsense?

No, according to that it doesn't mean that he's better than those players. Nobody said that. Having more completed forward passes over 10 yards than anyone else means he has more completed forward passes over 10 yard than anyone else. It means nothing else at all, and says nothing about a player's ability. It doesn't even say if it's a good thing! It's just something that is happening, that's all. The complete assessment of a footballer cannot not be based off one stat, and there are many intangibles that we can't even capture with stats.

He doesn't complete, or even attempt to play a great deal of through balls. I'd agree with that if that was the claim. He's never going to be leading the assists chart. Many of these forward passes are safer passes, but they're still going forward. So agree to disagree on everything being backwards or sideways I suppose?

For me passing a ball that goes 5 cm higher up the pitch but to the side is sideways.

 

[youngrell]

Was quite interested in the progressive passes discussion, so took a look.

26% of his passing distance is progressive.

13% of his passing classed as progressive.

Which sounds pretty sideways and backwards to me. However, some comparisons below show maybe not too bad:

Rodri – 26% / 10%
Casemiro – 34% / 13%
Partey – 28% / 13%
Endo – 27% / 6%
Alvarez – 29% / 6%

 

[WeePat]

Everything you are saying is true, but here's another perspective to consider: you got a dud of a player, we got a dud of a player. We payed £85 for our dud, you paid whopping £100... Does it really matter what "fair market value" was for either one of them? Once they are a dud, they are a dud ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Calling Rice a dud is kinda wild.

It feels like people are trying hard to go so far extreme in the other direction because there was so much hype around Rice earlier in the season and people were getting carried away calling him an (almost) bargain.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Nah, he's better than both in just about every way, Arsenal's problem is the forwards aren't playing well/finishing their dinner. How they failed to score today is beyond me

Granted, if the point is Partey+Xhaka was better than Rice+Havertz...well, that might actually have some merit

He is not a better passer than either.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Was quite interested in the progressive passes discussion, so took a look.

26% of his passing distance is progressive.

13% of his passing classed as progressive.

Which sounds pretty sideways and backwards to me. However, some comparisons below show maybe not too bad:

Rodri – 26% / 10%
Casemiro – 34% / 13%
Partey – 28% / 13%
Endo – 27% / 6%
Alvarez – 29% / 6%

It's also interesting to look into the mean position from which they're making these passes. I'd imagine Rice's starting point is lower than most of the top ones. Partey and Rodri for sure, Casemiro for us last year. Endo doesn't strike me as a top player anyway, and Alvarez I haven't seen enough of.

This matters because the passing channels are obviously easier when you start from lower on the pitch.

 

[GoonerGirly]

Everything you are saying is true, but here's another perspective to consider: you got a dud of a player, we got a dud of a player. We payed £85 for our dud, you paid whopping £100... Does it really matter what "fair market value" was for either one of them? Once they are a dud, they are a dud ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't think there are any Arsenal fans who think Rice is a dud after 2-3 poor games. He has been arguably our best player this season up until the last couple of weeks, where everyone has been poor. The whole team is performing poorly but before the WH game we were still in a title race. 2-3 weeks on, Rice is a dud. What an overreaction.

And if you persist on the Antony comparison, Rice has shown MUCH more in his half a season with us than Antony has in 1.5 seasons to indicate that he is far from a dud.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I don't think there are any Arsenal fans who think Rice is a dud after 2-3 poor games. He has been arguably our best player this season up until the last couple of weeks, where everyone has been poor. The whole team is performing poorly but before the WH game we were still in a title race. 2-3 weeks on, Rice is a dud. What an overreaction.

And if you persist on the Antony comparison, Rice has shown MUCH more in his half a season with us than Antony has in 1.5 seasons to indicate that he is far from a dud.

There's no title race in December ffs

I agree with your point that Rice isn't a dud though, and it's not comparable to Antony. He's very limited though.

 

[GoonerGirly]

6 goals conceded in last three games and all bar Fulham in patches you dominated.
I’ve said this before but Rice doesn’t offer much when you’re on the front foot, he naturally falls back and it leaves the midfield spread thin with space to run into. It was the same at West Ham, now they have a proactive midfield they are flying even though Rice was their best player. The amount of times they had their midfield overrun v similar to lower teams last season was a constant theme.
It happened with us and Casemiro for the first few games before he was injured and Casemiro got shit for it but at least he’s 31/32 odd. Rice is in his prime

Don't disagree though I think the issue is there is a gaping hole in our midfield to Rice's left. Havertz hasn't worked out, Trossard isn't best suited there. Partey has been injured all season and Jorginho has been in and out of the team, and is best in Rice's strongest position anyway (6). I've always thought Rice was probably overperforming playing with Havertz/Odegaard in front of him, and I'm not entirely surprised things have gone pear-shaped. That midfield always looked lightweight on paper, but Rice was able to compensate for that until recently. And Rice is 24, probably not quite hit his prime yet and is making the step up to a "bigger" club. He's just starting to understand what Arteta wants from him and has probably not played in Arteta's first choice system.

 

[GoonerGirly]

There's no title race in December ffs

I agree with your point that Rice isn't a dud though, and it's not comparable to Antony. He's very limited though.

I agree but considering the title of the Arsenal thread is that we've bottled the league, clearly people thought that there was a title race in December, which we were in

Of course he's not a dud or anything close to Antony's situation with you, I don't know if that poster was just WUMing. I agree he has some limitations though I think Partey being unavailable most of the season and Havertz not working out as planned has hugely spoiled things. Still, up until 2-3 weeks ago Rice was brilliant and never put in below a 7/10 shift. Wheels have fallen off a bit (with the team as a whole, not just Rice) but I'm sure he'll recover his form.

 

[youngrell]

It's also interesting to look into the mean position from which they're making these passes. I'd imagine Rice's starting point is lower than most of the top ones. Partey and Rodri for sure, Casemiro for us last year. Endo doesn't strike me as a top player anyway, and Alvarez I haven't seen enough of.

This matters because the passing channels are obviously easier when you start from lower on the pitch.

Agreed. He has tendency to drop deep even when it is not required, possibly habit from playing at WH for so long, and I suspect from watching him that a lot of his forward passes are from that position, which is probably where his weaknesses let Arsenal down a bit. They could do with it a bit further up the pitch.

Only included Endo due to Liverpool being top and Alvarez for obvious link to WH.

 

[giorno]

He is not a better passer than either.

He's not worse either

 

[Reapersoul20]

He's not worse either

Yes he is, significantly

 

[Righteous Steps]

He's not worse either

He definitely is, and most Arsenal fans would agree. He also can take too long to actually make a pass, you see players like Jorginho whos touch and body positioning sets them instantly in motion to split the lines, Rice doesn’t have the same mechanism so while he does make progressive passes, he splits the lines less from watching him recently.

 

[Hammondo]

He's not worse either

Yes he is.

 

[Cassidy]

He's not worse either

He is significantly worse on the ball than Partey. What he has over Partey is that he is fit and available

 

[giorno]

You're thinking too much perfect pass and not enough in terms of functionality. Partey and Khaka have greater breath of passing - in practice though aside from the occasional great pass they were less functional

 

[Cassidy]

You're thinking too much perfect pass and not enough in terms of functionality. Partey and Khaka have greater breath of passing - in practice though aside from the occasional great pass they were less functional

I'm only talking about on the ball, receiving the ball back to play and side on under pressure and still progressing it, more passes through the lines etc
Rice is pretty decent on the ball, tends not to lose it but he's no Partey that's is all, and of course I was only speaking about on the ball anyway, much more to the game and functionality of the position than that.

I actually think Parey Rice double pivot would have been excellent for Arsenal this season.

 

[Leftback99]

Focusing on Rice because the Arsenal forwards aren't finishing their numerous chances is odd.

He'd be our best player.

 

[90 + 5min]

Focusing on Rice because the Arsenal forwards aren't finishing their numerous chances is odd.

He'd be our best player.

Maybe if nobody played in our team. He wouldn't or shouldn't get minutes if our midfield was healthy.

 

[Leftback99]

Maybe if nobody played in our team. He wouldn't or shouldn't get minutes if our midfield was healthy.

 

[Cassidy]

Maybe if nobody played in our team. He wouldn't or shouldn't get minutes if our midfield was healthy.

Car crash of a post

 

[Coxy]

What is the fascination with criticising him on here?

Jealously we didn’t sign him?

 

[90 + 5min]

Car crash of a post

People have already started to see his real game. Level of overrating this player have slowly started to decrease.

 

[Mike Smalling]

People have already started to see his real game. Level of overrating this player have slowly started to decrease.

I'd still take him over McTominay in a heartbeat, as would any sane United supporter.