Declan Rice

croadyman

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If you look at our last great squad even our least best passers are leagues better than mcfred at that aspect. I grew up thinking all midfielders are supposed to be good at passing because of Scholes and Carrick. The ones that were not as good as them Ando and Fletcher were not giving the ball away every 2 minutes. The problem with McFred for me its not the defensive aspect but their passing ability. If we bring Rice who is not good at neither then we will most likely get minimal improvement.
Lets face it in an ideal world we sign someone who is more of a destroyer type CDM like Rice and a DLP who is good on the ball like a Neves/Locatelli type as well but that won't happen with much more pressing issues in other areas too
 

golden_blunder

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If you look at our last great squad even our least best passers are leagues better than mcfred at that aspect. I grew up thinking all midfielders are supposed to be good at passing because of Scholes and Carrick. The ones that were not as good as them Ando and Fletcher were not giving the ball away every 2 minutes. The problem with McFred for me its not the defensive aspect but their passing ability. If we bring Rice who is not good at neither then we will most likely get minimal improvement.
Where is this coming from?? It’s a lazy narrative that’s grown legs on the internet. If only the brexit argument worked the same!

rice may not be carrick or scholes but he doesn’t give the ball away like Fred
 

OverratedOpinion

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Where is this coming from?? It’s a lazy narrative that’s grown legs on the internet. If only the brexit argument worked the same!

rice may not be carrick or scholes but he doesn’t give the ball away like Fred
To be fair at the quoted price you would probably hope for a little more no?
 

golden_blunder

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To be fair at the quoted price you would probably hope for a little more no?
I haven’t seen a quoted price anywhere just loads of assumptions

a player who can pass, tackle, hold his position, leadership abilities, good and huge potential to grow.

not saying we will sign him but I haven’t seen a more nailed on United midfielder around

the post you replied to was saying the poster was wrong
 

flappyjay

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Where is this coming from?? It’s a lazy narrative that’s grown legs on the internet. If only the brexit argument worked the same!

rice may not be carrick or scholes but he doesn’t give the ball away like Fred
Point is that we need more than "he doesn't give the ball away" especially for the quoted price. Whatever nationality who ever we sign they should be able to shield the defense whilst also being able to launch passes from deep. Unless you are saying he is good enough to cover for Pogba in a pivot(that's if Pogba does stay)
 

golden_blunder

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Point is that we need more than "he doesn't give the ball away" especially for the quoted price. Whatever nationality who ever we sign they should be able to shield the defense whilst also being able to launch passes from deep. Unless you are saying he is good enough to cover for Pogba in a pivot(that's if Pogba does stay)
I’m saying with or without Pogba, he is good enough.

you were saying he’s not a good passer; which is wrong. He just doesn’t go long at West Ham all the time. Which could be how he’s asked to play. We don’t know. All I know is that he’s a better footballer than given credit for
 

golden_blunder

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Btw where are you gonna find this elusive quarterback who can tackle as well because that’s what you’re describing and expecting
 

flappyjay

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I’m saying with or without Pogba, he is good enough.
Well I haven't seen this from him in the matches I have seen for both England and Westham. His passing to me seems average but if he is good as you say then I would be happy to see him join.
 

RashyForPM

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There’s quite a few posts in this thread which make Rice sound like below average fodder. I’m not sure what’s motivating that but he’s been called slow, absolute base level DM, some saying they are concerned about his positioning, would crumble when pressed (?!) or offers nothing except breaking up play.

I’ve seen him a few times now and none of these negatives apply. He is plenty quick enough (and very agile, sharp in his movements), in the top three or four DMs in the Prem (even at his tender age), has great positional sense, is often pressed and doesn’t crumble, offers plenty beyond breaking up play, including decent, measured passing, composure and leadership.

I do see the similarities with Keane, apart from temperament, of course. Rice has that focus and busyness about his play, a similar sharpness of movement and a relentless attitude of the type common to winners.

Rice with Pogba and Bruno would be fricking brilliant.

And someone said McT is much better than Rice which, I’m afraid, is horseshit. I like McT, and he’s a different type to Rice, but he is a class below at the moment.
Great post.
 

gajender

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Where is this coming from?? It’s a lazy narrative that’s grown legs on the internet. If only the brexit argument worked the same!

rice may not be carrick or scholes but he doesn’t give the ball away like Fred
Agreed he is brilliant defensively while very competent on the ball with high scope of improvement as well, it's a no brainer signing unless West ham price him out of the move.
 

Hammondo

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Where is this coming from?? It’s a lazy narrative that’s grown legs on the internet. If only the brexit argument worked the same!

rice may not be carrick or scholes but he doesn’t give the ball away like Fred
His passing is very average.
 

andersj

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His passing is very average.
Maybe. I actually think it is quite good. Could take more risk and be more progressive. But playing for a team like West Ham (at 22) that could easily improve.

His completion rate is 86 %. Five percent below Rodri. But West Ham also, on average, has a 12 percent lower completion rate than City. Furthermore, Rice actually move the ball forward more (in yards) than Rodri per pass. Rice also makes more passes (per 90 min) into the penalty box than Rodri.

Very few people would claim Rodri is an average passer.
 

Hammondo

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That depends on whether you have Pogba next to him. If PP is still here then no you really just need someone with essentially Matic's passing ability but much more mobile. Hit a few nice forward passes and the occasional diagonal while cleaning everything up at the other end.
I don't think he's as good at passing as matic, and you really want pogba further up the pitch.
 

golden_blunder

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Maybe. I actually think it is quite good. Could take more risk and be more progressive. But playing for a team like West Ham (at 22) that could easily improve.

His completion rate is 86 %. Five percent below Rodri. But West Ham also, on average, has a 12 percent lower completion rate than City. Furthermore, Rice actually move the ball forward more (in yards) than Rodri per pass. Rice also makes more passes (per 90 min) into the penalty box than Rodri.

Very few people would claim Rodri is an average passer.
Good post
 

justsomebloke

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I don't see why we shouldn't, really. Every team we buy from hikes up the prices when United come sniffing so it's only fair we do the same when we have a player in demand.

Lingard has more potential suitors than just West Ham, too. We shouldn't pigeonhole ourselves into thinking his only option is as makeweight for Rice in a swap deal.

The other consideration is that big money for a player like Rice doesn't necessarily go that far - how many times have we seen teams reinvest money from a big transfer poorly? West Ham have bought over 50 strikers in since Gold and Sullivan took over so a player who scores goals like Lingard has is invaluable to them.
1. We shouldn't do it ("it" being an asking price that is not just higher than we expect to get, but MUCH higher than we expect to get) because it in effect deters interest in a player we want to sell.
2. "Fair" has nothing to with anything.
3. If we ridiculously overprice Lingard, we will have fewer potential suitors.
4. I agree completely that making the sale of Lingard conditional on the sale of Rice to United is not a good idea.
5. I don't think it would be wise to assume that West Ham sees Lingard as invaluable.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I don't think he's as good at passing as matic, and you really want pogba further up the pitch.
Based on what I watched, I dare to say his passing is on par with Matic. That is his passing level right now.

On the ball, he can retain possession and composed, I think that’s one of his strength that he has the calmness on the ball even if opposition press him. People seem to think he is like Ndidi or Kante on the ball, he’s actually better than that. He is just not Carrick or Alonso playmaker level, that’s all.

However, not sure about his first touch, I don’t pay attention too much on player’s first touch so I can’t tell if he has heavy touch or no since people are moaning about Fred‘s first touch.
 
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Bebestation

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It's the same stuff.

Because Rice is not a deep lying playmaker people dont rate him.

The fact that he is English also adds to a level of underrated ability in the modern age when English players are underrated rather than overrated.
 

Abraxas

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If you look at our last great squad even our least best passers are leagues better than mcfred at that aspect. I grew up thinking all midfielders are supposed to be good at passing because of Scholes and Carrick. The ones that were not as good as them Ando and Fletcher were not giving the ball away every 2 minutes. The problem with McFred for me its not the defensive aspect but their passing ability. If we bring Rice who is not good at neither then we will most likely get minimal improvement.
I do think Rice is quite a good passer of the ball, maybe better than McTominay and Fred, but that doesn't mean he's the best option out there. He's still quite a safe passer, I don't think he's going to be one to cut through opposition midfields with a great touch and weight of pass. He mostly seems to be about retaining possession quite safely.

But then again maybe we're looking at it too simplistically. Having real athletes who are tidy enough could be one avenue to success. Liverpool have shown recently it isn't necessarily always about having technical maestros in there if the other parts of the team are very productive. It depends how it fits together as part of the whole. Maybe something like Rice and Pogba/McT is the type of physically dominant midfield that fits into this habit we have of grinding teams down and showing our power over the full 90.
 

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It's starting to look like Ole has came to the same conclusion as most of Pogba's previous managers, that the double pivot isn't the best use of him, and Pogba also prefers playing higher up as he cited in his latest interview, he mentioned that it reminded him of his position at Juventus which is the best football he's played.

With that in mind I really don't want to see Rice/McTominay as our double pivot.

Better than McSauce
That's a pretty low bar though, I could name a dozen midfielders in the PL alone that are better passers than him and Fred.

It's the same stuff.

Because Rice is not a deep lying playmaker people dont rate him.

The fact that he is English also adds to a level of underrated ability in the modern age when English players are underrated rather than overrated.
I disagree, the "If he was called Riceinho" argument is outdated, is there anyone here that doesn't rate English talent like Foden, Grealish Sancho, Bellingham, Kane, Sterling and even Calvin Phillips? I don't think so. Most would agree Rice is a decent player but he's being talked about for elite level prices for a player who isn't even in the top 10 in his position in Europe, in fact he's not even the best in the PL.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I think Rice is very good and his talent is top club level. The thing is that I believe even if we sign Rice, he will play next to McT or Fred while Pogba will be moved to more advanced position. This will create another argument and moaning.

Personally, I have no issue with it since Bruno and Pogba will be considered as the advanced playmaker and wide playmaker while our centre backs are ball playing. That’s enough balance to me. Rice will improve our composure on the ball means we won’t get to see us giving the ball away cheaply when we won the ball back and also improve our defense without conceded cheap fouls since I think he’s a better tackler than McT & Fred. In additional, no more Matic because I think he’s been dreadful this season and involved as a starter in our 5 out 9 loses.

Although I expect to see Pogba and Rice pair against the bottom teams or teams that sit back more like Fulham, Burnley, Newcastle, Wolves and etc. But not when we are facing teams like Southampton, Everton, Arsenal and any teams above them.
 

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But then again maybe we're looking at it too simplistically. Having real athletes who are tidy enough could be one avenue to success. Liverpool have shown recently it isn't necessarily always about having technical maestros in there if the other parts of the team are very productive. It depends how it fits together as part of the whole.
I think most teams these days focus on winning the ball in the area right in front of the defence. That is why a team like Liverpool played Fabinho, Winjaldum and Henderson in this area of the pitch. All three of them playing it safe and with very little risk. Conte did the same when he played with Kante/Matic. Pep do the same. He plays with creative midfielders, but higher up the pitch. He often brings in one of the fullbacks next
to the CBs and a fullback next to Rodri/Fernandinho.

I’m not sure what type of player people expect, but I think an efficient passer that can protect the defence would be ideal.
 

OrcaFat

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I’m sure Moyes said something like ‘It will take the Bank of England and bank of Scotland to sign him.’

One of the main reasons I have little to no interest in this one materialising.
Yeah but the owners probably want a little cash windfall. I don’t pay any attention to Moyes, I doubt he has veto. And if Lingard is part of the deal that would soften the blow for Moyes anyway. (None of which makes a Rice deal likely as we don’t even know if there is interest from us).
 

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Didn’t Moyes say something like he’s not a £100m player he’s so much more?
That’s Moyes talking out of his arse as usual but I don’t blame him. However, I’m sure the cockney bastards would give serious consideration of an offer of Lingard plus £50 million and Garner on loan.
 

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I think the defence would improve considerably with Rice protecting it. He’s be a priority for me over another expensive CB. If we are absolutely bare bones this summer and can spend maybe 150m including funds raised from sales, I’d take Rice and Sancho as our top priorities to improve the balance and functionality of the team. Those signings would have the biggest systemic impact.

Henderson/DDG

Lindelof - - - - Maguire
W.Bissaka - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Shaw

Rice - - - - Pogba

Sancho - - - - - - Fernandes - - - - - - Rashford

Greenwood/Martial

A much, much better team. If you can afford to bring a third player in, you make it Grealish to play on the left and move Rashford up front. Potentially selling Martial. The final piece of the puzzle is to sign a partner for Maguire and an understudy for AWB. But I think CB is the least critical. A proper DM improves the defence and the midfield.​
i agree with this. Dont think we will have the finances for more than one or two major signings. Dont see us signing any more prospects as we are stacked with those now. We only have prospects or square pegs for round holes for the right wing and no matter what centre half you sign you still have mcfred or matic playing in front of them. The holding midfield upgrade would help Lindelof and push a replacement centre back down the line a year. It would also mean that we can chose between martial/greenwood/cavani as cf and that buys more time for that signing too.
 

Trex

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How much did Kante cost Chelsea after winning the league at Leicester, it was the same summer Pogba moved for a record fee right, DMs don't cost so much, Rice is solid nothing special to be going for such figures, United should stay clear, there are better players that would cost half the price Moyes and west ham are quoting.
 

DWelbz19

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How much did Kante cost Chelsea after winning the league at Leicester, it was the same summer Pogba moved for a record fee right, DMs don't cost so much, Rice is solid nothing special to be going for such figures, United should stay clear, there are better players that would cost half the price Moyes and west ham are quoting.
I might be wrong, but I think Kante had a release clause of some kind at the time.
 

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Why are we trying to shoehorn a DM with Fred or McTominay? Shouldn't we be looking at a player who can play on his own and bring in another quality attacking midfield player to play along with the DM? Neither Fred nor McTominay is good enough.
 

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Why are we trying to shoehorn a DM with Fred or McTominay? Shouldn't we be looking at a player who can play on his own and bring in another quality attacking midfield player to play along with the DM? Neither Fred nor McTominay is good enough.
I presume the idea is to bring in a DM to play in a 2 with Pogba. If it worked out, Fred and McT would be backup.