If you're sitting deep against a better midfield shouldn't you be winning the ball more than your teammate who's further forward? If that's not your job then what is?
Declan Rice
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It's not just to do with him being English, although it's an obvious point that it's an advantage. That's the reason Ferguson always wanted the best of British, it's an easier adaptation, less risky and they're more likely to represent the core of a side. There's a premium associated with it but you're potentially getting something for it. It's not just dreamt up, selling clubs know they have a valuable commodity for these reasons and buying clubs sometimes accept it.
Contrast that against Paulinha, nobody except a few Portuguese posters are likely to have any clue how good the guy he is. Maybe our scouts will but even they have to extrapolate to the point that assessing his merit in the PL isn't trivial. He's a defensive midfielder for one of Portugal's powerhouses, it's hard to assess that. Let's face it, he's just a name at the moment. Some random bloke a few articles have mentioned as being good but he's not as proven a commodity as Rice who just got to a World Cup final and can be assessed in a strong league for a good outfit.
This isn't pretending either, this is the reality. If the club are targeting Rice they probably know he's coming at a premium but they think it is in fact justified and the examples you give as alternatives do more to justify why they think this way. They probably don't want a complete punt or a 30 year old.
Will you fecking stop wanking over gettin second place when our rivals are winning PL and CL? Fred and McT must be upgraded and hopefully with one player.
How can you watch Fred fumble and get turned like an amateur all over the pitch and come here and post how we have a perfectly good midfielder to defend?
No, I don't think so. I can't remember the exact way the game went but I would always expect the defensive box to box player to get more defensive actions than a pure DM because there are greater opportunities to chase the ball. I haven't seen the stats but I expect Fred will have higher defensive actions than Rice more often than not, but that doesn't actually mean he's a better defensive player, it just means he's more active and playing a different role. Rice stops a lot of attacks by being in the right place at the right time. His best attribute is his in-game reading and Carrick used to be accused of the same things; too weak, not active/physical enough, and yet what set him apart defensively was his game reading. I think Rice comes over as a far more unique and intelligent player compared to Phillips and I think in a few years Rice will be considered unanimously better.
Taking the example of Palhinha, he's not some random bloke off the street, he plays for the champions of Portugal (the same club we scouted Bruno from), and he also plays for his national team, including in the same European Cup Rice played in. Frankly if our scouts can't assess whether he's a reasonable chance of adapting to the Prem then we might as well just sack them now. Yes clearly there is more risk associated with signing the guy than someone from the Prem but then he's probably available for half the money West Ham want for Rice, or maybe less. And he's actually played in the Champions League as well unlike Rice.
I think there are many players around Europe you could make similar cases for - the lad at Marseille or the other at Monaco, Norgaard at Brentford, or just a random journeyman like Danilo quite frankly.
Carrick was fantastic on the ball though, that's why we were willing to pay big money for him, not just because he positioned himself well.
I understand he's not a bloke off the street but it's a completely different type of football he's played. It's a slower league playing for a dominant side, it's not the same as playing for us and he suddenly has to mop up behind Bruno and Pogba for example, it requires a lot of dynamism and adaptation to the pace of the league to deal with the forwards that exploit our setup. Half the price isn't good value unless he is pretty certain to adapt to that role for us but our recent history suggests that is actually not very easy which makes the task hard. Yes the scouts job is to assess that but every club has hits and misses, it's a very difficult thing to do when there are more variables.
We've tried Matic who was okay for 6 months, form dwindled and now is good for the odd cameo. We've tried Fred, who on paper would be a similar story to Paulinha - had CL experience, he now plays for Brazil but he's still not quite cutting it. Donny had great CL experience too and his adaptation has been poor. We've tried Pogba and that hasn't worked out in CM. It's been a conundrum so when people say there must be loads of people round Europe that can do the job and cost peanuts, I really don't think there are.
I think what the club would be saying is they're happy to pay this premium because if he gives what he does for West Ham he will improve us and that doesn't require much extrapolation. If he has any kind of normal progression for a DM he'll improve further and every indication is he is on that trajectory. He could be here for a long time, which means that the club can absorb much of that cost over a long period - it would be surprising if he wasn't here for at least another new contract whereas a Danilo costs a fee and then at the end of the contract he is worthless to us and we need to revisit the market.
It's not just about looking at him and speculating as to whether he's 80 million talent in top trumps style for every technical and physical criteria right now. I think even Rice's biggest supporter would doubt the valuation in those terms but there's more to it than that. I can see the wider logic of it and why it appeals to the club.
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Have we actually seriously been linked to him?
If we only want him then it explains why we didn’t buy someone else.
Like when we didn’t get Sancho, we waited a year instead of buying Sarr or Brooks.
He is super young especially for a DM and would definitely improve us. He will also only get better.
While I am not 100% convinced I am liking the idea of buying him more and more.
He will end up at one of the top 4 teams soon enough anyway, hopefully it’s us.
If we only want him then it explains why we didn’t buy someone else.
Like when we didn’t get Sancho, we waited a year instead of buying Sarr or Brooks.
He is super young especially for a DM and would definitely improve us. He will also only get better.
While I am not 100% convinced I am liking the idea of buying him more and more.
He will end up at one of the top 4 teams soon enough anyway, hopefully it’s us.
Yes, I agree with that and that's the big question mark over Rice. What I would say though is that Carrick didn't start his career as that player and I'm not convinced he was known as such a great passer at the age of 22. From what I've seen of Rice I think he has the potential to improve his passing and become very solid in that department.
The £100 million repeated asking price for Rice is an absolute joke. McTominay can do the job and we could find cover elsewhere at a much more reasonable fee. Bissouma for starters or Neves.
The neves who can't do it against a Brentford?
Mctominay is one of my favourite players - but if he was able to play CDM by himself then we wouldn't play Fred next to him.
Are you trying to imply there's absolutely no risk in signing Rice? If so, I think it's rubbish quite frankly - we play a totally different style to West Ham and he plays with another DM/B2B next to him in Soucek who's a lot more similar to, say, McT than Pogba or Bruno. Whoever we get there's risk associated unless we can somehow pick up Kanté, and £80m is a ludicrous amount to spend on a relatively unproven, not overly naturally talented player.
Phillips is the better player.
Do you think Monaco would try for that much given the current financial issues in Ligue 1? With Rice I think West Ham will be looking for Maguire money, especially if Chelsea and City are also interested.
I'm not sure what Ole is doing with midfield either, he's basically went into the season with only 2 CM's he trusts, he doesn't fancy VdB and knws Matic i past it while Pogba simply doesn't work in the double pivot. He's painted himself into a McFred corner.
I'd love to see Hannibal intergrated but I feel Ole will be too scared to play him in the double pivot until he's a bit older, under LVG he'd probably have already played some games there.
Kamara would be a low fee, low wage VdB replacement in January as I think he'll be off on loan then.
I think it would be fine for playing on the break like how West Ham do, but seems like teams could throttle us in the Wan-Bissaka/McTominay/Rice/Varane part of the build up (the right side and defensive midfield area) way too easily. That group is crying out for someone who can move the ball around like a Tielemans or Jorginho type.
No I don't think that's a cert, old Barcelona would win it back more.
Bit rude and actually I don't give a feck about what our rivals are doing, it's progress. Offer something other than fecking just moaning about players that Ole obviously likes irrespective if others don't. They can be upgraded but shall we see where the feck we are before writing the season off.
Fred + 10 mill for Rice plz
I always thank Rice for this win, and i had completely forgotten VDB played this game.
McT is still at an age where his game could go up another level. He has the right coach in Carrick to teach him and Matic as a mentor as well. Garner may finally come through in the next few years to secure a spot in the first team as well, so blowing our brains out for Declan Rice may thankfully not be an option.
The neves who can't do it against a Brentford?
Mctominay is one of my favourite players - but if he was able to play CDM by himself then we wouldn't play Fred next to him.
It might have been rude, yet where we finished last year has feck all to do with our dire situation in midfield. And you should give a feck about our rivals, it gives perspective on things we actually “achieved”. Whether Ole likes our options I am not sure, but we don’t need a season to write off in order to see how bad we are behind Pogba and Bruno and in front of the CBs. When we play McFred, we have two average CMs who supposedly offer protection, yet we are pretty diabolical in protecting from the midfield. Any bright spark from that duo is whenever Scotty decides to turn up.
Monaco are owned by a Oligarch and will sell on their terms IMO. It would still be cheaper than what West Ham would want for Rice but I can see Monaco possibly holding out for more now that the player is a full international for France. And I like him and if I'm not mistaken I was the first poster to bring up his name in the transfer forum. Monaco bought him from Bordeaux for about €20m and it was said by a Le Parisien journo that he was also followed by United scouts. But if people think signing Tchouameni is gonna elevate us into a team that is gonna dominate possession alongside either McFred against the best midfields, then they're very much mistaken IMO.
McTominay and Fred are runners, spoilers etc but they don't have the craft and guile that we need in midfield to match the best in Europe and that's how I judge our team and players. But if either player had the ability to recycle play and retain possession whilst maintaining a high level of discipline next to a creative #8, then we wouldn't need to have a conversation about signing a player with a strong defensive game. Bryan Robson who you mentioned in your earlier posts was the greatest box to box midfielder I ever saw at United of his kind. McFred are not in his league and I foresee us setting up to react against the very best teams on the counter with both players in the team and hope our superb attacking players will make up the deficit in midfield from a creative POV.
I could be wrong and Hannibal might not be good enough. But I'm hoping to see him get a chance sooner rather than later. And we also have to understand that the game has evolved in some aspects and many teams are very good at applying coordinated pressure whether that be pressing high, pressing the wide receiver or even counter pressing after losing the ball to make up for their own vulnerability in defensive transition. So IMO the composition of the midfield has to factor in the above because the above scenarios won't allow too much time on the ball against teams that are well drilled off the ball which causes a problem and has caused problems for deep lying playmakers due not being afforded the time they became accustomed to.
Personally I'm a firm believer in the deepest midfielder being someone who will recycle possession to a high level with out taking too many risks due to the dangers posed by teams who are very good at winning the ball back high up the pitch in a coordinated approach. That will then create conditions for a Luka Modric or Toni Kroos to drop into the defensive half space off the ball and help with the build up. This is what I feel people don't understand and I personally see the potential in a midfield which consists of a DM Rice or Tchouameni with Bellingham as the #6/#8 and Hannibal as the most advanced midfielder of the three. Not sure if it'll work but it's a combination that could really grow in the coming seasons IMO and go toe to toe with the very best potentially.
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agreed 100%.....i would take Kalvin Phillips over Rice any day of the week
I'm not saying there's no risk I'm saying it is fairly minimal in comparison to other options. Much less risky than the ones you advocate because being cheap or "value" doesn't imply less risk as there's the opportunity cost if it goes tits up even if it only cost 40 million. They're all risks but the more things that are stacked in our favour for bringing a player in the better and Rice has a lot in his favour that your options don't.
The danger is more that people will say he was a rip off constantly rather than completely flopping, as we've seen with Maguire. People get obsessed with the numbers but ultimately I think we'd rather have Maguire than not.
I would think the idea is probably to partner him with somebody like McTominay. If we persist with the 2 in midfield that looks a natural partnership. But that's not the only option, if Pogba resigns then it has to be a Ndidi or Rice type if we're going to squeeze blood from that particular midfield stone (which I don't advocate). He could also be the anchor in a different setup if there is further retooling. He's young enough to adapt but can also fit in now.
Agree! I think quite a few find this very hard to accept, and I think that is why there is a resistance towards Rice. Does Rice do what Robson, Keane or Carrick did? I find that question irrelevant, and quite misleading. Football has changed so much since 2015. When Pochettino took charge of Southampton he was basically they only coach implementing a high press in the PL (and he still was when he tool charge of Spurs). Since then? Pep, Klopp, Hassenhuttl, Potter, Bielsa and quite a few others have followed them. As a result, the task of the midfielders has changed quite a bit.
This.
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See I don't see much similarity between Rice and Ndidi really. Ndidi is busier, quicker and far better at winning the ball, while Rice is much calmer and more reliable in possession and stronger in the air. I agree that Ndidi could be a good option to partner Pogba, as he genuinely does offer enough defensively to make up for Pogba's defensive frailties. I don't think Rice is that guy though, even though he's a better footballer. But both of them would cost a fortune and probably aren't worth it.
For the price quoted for Rice, I hope we go for some other option. He isn't worth that much. It will be like Maguire. Atleast for Maguire we were desperate
BISSOUMA
Completely agree mate and I don't believe many people take into account the change that has taken place in the league which has meant the role in question can't be used in the way it once was.
I love watching the old highlights of these guys just to see this, its a glaring distance from todays safety first approach to passing. The whole team used to do it, the ball was always played a yard or two in front of the player you were passing to meaning the receiver actually had to get onto it on the front foot forcing each other to go forward, Keane and Scholes were always at it but so were the rest of the team to be fair. Its frustrating to watch the ball being played sideways or half the time just behind a player these days but I guess we cant always have Keane and Scholes in the middle for us
You’re drunk
not yet
Yeah I notice this whenever I'm watching old games on MUTV. They used to ping it out in front of them, forcing them up the pitch.I love watching the old highlights of these guys just to see this, its a glaring distance from todays safety first approach to passing. The whole team used to do it, the ball was always played a yard or two in front of the player you were passing to meaning the receiver actually had to get onto it on the front foot forcing each other to go forward, Keane and Scholes were always at it but so were the rest of the team to be fair. Its frustrating to watch the ball being played sideways or half the time just behind a player these days but I guess we cant always have Keane and Scholes in the middle for us
Keane would demand it. I remember Rio telling a story about his debut and Keane hammered him for not playing it forwards 'Play it forwards, your not at fecking West Ham now!' or something along those lines. Brilliant Keano
It's all about opinions. Might be me but I don't know how you achieve any success in a football game with a poor midfield? How do you go to PSG, City, Chelsea with two cardboard cut outs and win? This prem is the hardest league in the world so how have we had a degree of success, unbeaten away with players in midfield that just run around a lot?
The barometer for me isn't about what are rivals are doing, its doesn't give perspective cause it's not the measure. City and Chelsea will never be our yard stick for me irrespective of what they win. For me it's how you win it and if that can be done with Ole, a few lads from the academy and some young talent that have developed together, it will be worth the wait.
Ole loves this job so why would he play two players that were so bad, they could end up costing him it? Simple solution, play Pogs with Matic and bring DVB on after 70mins....but he doesn't cause every fecking big game he's generally won to keep him in the job, those two feckers have played in midfield. The times we haven't won, generally those two diabolical footballers haven't.
Who would you play based on that?
“He’s always available.” There’s a reason Keano said that and it isn’t all to do with Rice.
I think we will go all in for him next summer (expecting a 80m bid for West Ham to accept), and many will be shocked to find out he is like a McFred level of player, who doesn’t loss the ball cheaply.
I agree. I think people will be disappointed whoever we sign though as they're looking for a unicorn of a player who can effectively be a one man midfield with Pogba and Bruno ahead. That player doesn't exist.
If we replace Fred with Rice, Ndidi, Phillips or Bissouma, they will still play alongside McTominay. The latter might have a but more freedom to get forward of course.
Rice tracking back was a thing of beauty. Usain Boltesque
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