Declan Rice

Acole9

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I would buy him but not for over £75 million. He played well yesterday, normally doesn't play that well against us.
 

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Never impresses me, and for north of £50m, he’s being set up for a Maguire-esque fall from grace.
An obvious comparison but I don't think he has the basic flaws in his game that Maguire had. Harry was a MOTD darling with his forward carrying of the ball, made for fun highlights but his defensive work was often ropey and bizarrely overlooked. Also very evident that Maguire's lack of mobility was only going to become a larger issue as he aged.

Rice is very solid, technically an upgrade on what we have in there, excellent positional sense, good physical tools, great age. He is not going to wow people but he is the type of solid, dependable player that just creates the base of a platform for the team to build off. The type of midfield partner that would have made Pogba in a 2 more sustainable.

It will be ridiculous money but I don't see it as a massive risk, at worst he will be a good player for a number of years.
 

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An obvious comparison but I don't think he has the basic flaws in his game that Maguire had. Harry was a MOTD darling with his forward carrying of the ball, made for fun highlights but his defensive work was often ropey and bizarrely overlooked. Also very evident that Maguire's lack of mobility was only going to become a larger issue as he aged.

Rice is very solid, technically an upgrade on what we have in there, excellent positional sense, good physical tools, great age. He is not going to wow people but he is the type of solid, dependable player that just creates the base of a platform for the team to build off. The type of midfield partner that would have made Pogba in a 2 more sustainable.

It will be ridiculous money but I don't see it as a massive risk, at worst he will be a good player for a number of years.
Did fans really talk about Maguire as highly as they have started to do with Rice?

I don't really remember it.

Sure people might have been happy once the signing happened but I don't necessarily remember hyping him up like Rice has been getting for nearly a year or more now.

Another thing I remember is how Leicester fans didn't rate Maguire as much whilst he was there - I've read West Ham forums and they talk about Rice as one of the best they have ever seen play for them.
 

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Still really not sure. I'd prefer a player in the Carrick mold.

Not sure he's worth the money but he'd definitely improve us at the same time
 

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I'd definitely have him at Utd, we should be trying to sign the best british talent where possible, however they really should be the best and not a £80mil harry maguire. In that case buy from abroad.

However a deal with West Ham wouldn't be easy to pull off and we'd be paying a premium for various factors, rivalry, english premium etc.

On the flipside one quality expensive signing maybe better than two average signings for the same price. Or to put it another way a VVD is better than Bially and Lindelof combined for the same price.

More important the club identify the next manager and make sure any midfield reinforcements fit into how they intend on playing. Big differences in how Poch and Ten Hag play.
 

Bobski

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Did fans really talk about Maguire as highly as they have started to do with Rice?

I don't really remember it.

Sure people might have been happy once the signing happened but I don't necessarily remember hyping him up like Rice has been getting for nearly a year or more now.

Another thing I remember is how Leicester fans didn't rate Maguire as much whilst he was there - I've read West Ham forums and they talk about Rice as one of the best they have ever seen play for them.
I think people were so desperate to move on from Smalling and Jones( a similarly scapegoated pair to MCFred) that they were desperate for anything. Hype around the WC also played a part. There was a similar attitude of those who thought he was vastly overrated and those who wanted him, very little in between.

Leicester fans did pipe in occasionally and warn us that he was not all that but too many were already on the train at that point.
 

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I'd definitely have him at Utd, we should be trying to sign the best british talent where possible, however they really should be the best and not a £80mil harry maguire. In that case buy from abroad.

However a deal with West Ham wouldn't be easy to pull off and we'd be paying a premium for various factors, rivalry, english premium etc.

On the flipside one quality expensive signing maybe better than two average signings for the same price. Or to put it another way a VVD is better than Bially and Lindelof combined for the same price.

More important the club identify the next manager and make sure any midfield reinforcements fit into how they intend on playing. Big differences in how Poch and Ten Hag play.
Fully agree with the idea that one top quality signing is better than two merely decent players for the same total spend. We have plenty of players in the latter category and not enough real top players.
 

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An obvious comparison but I don't think he has the basic flaws in his game that Maguire had. Harry was a MOTD darling with his forward carrying of the ball, made for fun highlights but his defensive work was often ropey and bizarrely overlooked. Also very evident that Maguire's lack of mobility was only going to become a larger issue as he aged.

Rice is very solid, technically an upgrade on what we have in there, excellent positional sense, good physical tools, great age. He is not going to wow people but he is the type of solid, dependable player that just creates the base of a platform for the team to build off. The type of midfield partner that would have made Pogba in a 2 more sustainable.

It will be ridiculous money but I don't see it as a massive risk, at worst he will be a good player for a number of years.
I think he’s an above average player, but when you go north of £70m, that’s not nearly enough. At £100m+, you’ve got to be one of the best in the world at what you do, and Rice just isn’t anywhere near that, for me. Once a game opens up or the onus is on him to play his team back into a game, he looks half the player to me. West Ham generally play tight, defensive and compact, and when he can hold that shape he looks a better player, but any game getting away from them, when expansive play is required, he fades, quite considerably.

Really, he shouldn’t look par with our much maligned midfield and midfielders, but he doesn’t do anything to elevate above them in games where the opposition need quelling so his own team can get back into it.

Maguire gets it in the neck because his transfer is anchored to the player he is; I don’t see how Rice would be any different; in a defensive capacity, we’re not even getting a Casemiro, let alone a Makelele, who would be a £100m+ player even as a defensive midfielder.

I don’t dislike him, but he’s not someone you shell out anything like that money for, in fact, for £100m+, we should be enquiring about the best DM on the planet, whoever you consider that to be.
 

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I'd definitely have him at Utd, we should be trying to sign the best british talent where possible, however they really should be the best and not a £80mil harry maguire. In that case buy from abroad.

However a deal with West Ham wouldn't be easy to pull off and we'd be paying a premium for various factors, rivalry, english premium etc.

On the flipside one quality expensive signing maybe better than two average signings for the same price. Or to put it another way a VVD is better than Bially and Lindelof combined for the same price.

More important the club identify the next manager and make sure any midfield reinforcements fit into how they intend on playing. Big differences in how Poch and Ten Hag play.
The question you have to ask is: would you want us to pay what West Ham would want for him?

That’s ‘get the best defensive midfielder in the league’ money, just a massive fee that shouldn’t be swept under the rug, imo.
 

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I think he’s an above average player, but when you go north of £70m, that’s not nearly enough. At £100m+, you’ve got to be one of the best in the world at what you do, and Rice just isn’t anywhere near that, for me. Once a game opens up or the onus is on him to play his team back into a game, he looks half the player to me. West Ham generally play tight, defensive and compact, and when he can hold that shape he looks a better player, but any game getting away from them, when expansive play is required, he fades, quite considerably.

Really, he shouldn’t look par with our much maligned midfield and midfielders, but he doesn’t do anything to elevate above them in games where the opposition need quelling so his own team can get back into it.

Maguire gets it in the neck because his transfer is anchored to the player he is; I don’t see how Rice would be any different; in a defensive capacity, we’re not even getting a Casemiro, let alone a Makelele, who would be a £100m+ player even as a defensive midfielder.

I don’t dislike him, but he’s not someone you shell out anything like that money for, in fact, for £100m+, we should be enquiring about the best DM on the planet, whoever you consider that to be.
The money is migraine inducing, and yes I would be a lot more comfortable with him at Fred Money.

In terms of other options I am seeing a lot of names I have watched little of or who have relatively unheralded careers until they started popping up in links to Utd(Haidara/Zakaria) We are going to get fleeced whoever it is. More than just the best in the game I want someone who is hungry to prove themself. It would be typical Utd to end up with someone like decling Kante as Chelsea bring Rice in.
 

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An obvious comparison but I don't think he has the basic flaws in his game that Maguire had. Harry was a MOTD darling with his forward carrying of the ball, made for fun highlights but his defensive work was often ropey and bizarrely overlooked. Also very evident that Maguire's lack of mobility was only going to become a larger issue as he aged.

Rice is very solid, technically an upgrade on what we have in there, excellent positional sense, good physical tools, great age. He is not going to wow people but he is the type of solid, dependable player that just creates the base of a platform for the team to build off. The type of midfield partner that would have made Pogba in a 2 more sustainable.

It will be ridiculous money but I don't see it as a massive risk, at worst he will be a good player for a number of years.
That to me in a bit of an old fashioned way of looking at things, where midfielders are extremes in their roles. For me they all overlap a lot more than they used to, and Rice to me is a bit of an extreme.
 

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The money is migraine inducing, and yes I would be a lot more comfortable with him at Fred Money.

In terms of other options I am seeing a lot of names I have watched little of or who have relatively unheralded careers until they started popping up in links to Utd(Haidara/Zakaria) We are going to get fleeced whoever it is. More than just the best in the game I want someone who is hungry to prove themself. It would be typical Utd to end up with someone like decling Kante as Chelsea bring Rice in.
I mean the pressure his price tag alone will put on him and then comparisons to some truly great midfielders who were showing far more than him before taking the leap to a so-called top team, is a serious anchor around his neck as it has been for Maguire. Not even based on all-round midfield play, but just in terms of pure defensive contributions.

We rarely play tight and compact like West Ham do, so you’re asking him to play with less support and protection and on top of that, be consistently expansive in stretched games, which to me, is already his biggest weakness at West Ham. I think he’d be in his element in a top tier Mourinho or Simeone team, but a front-foot side, he’s not shown £100m qualities in the slightest, for me.

I don’t know who we’ll go for, but I hope it’s aligned with what they should be worth, there or thereabouts; Rice at £50m, I don’t think or approach in the same way and would happily have him here, for example.
 

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Doesn’t matter how much he’s actually worth, if United go for him, West Ham will pull United pants down like Leicester did with Macguire. No English team is going to sell their top players for anything less than a huge inflated price to United. I suppose United could look abroad but you need a good scouting network.
 

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Doesn’t matter how much he’s actually worth, if United go for him, West Ham will pull United pants down like Leicester did with Macguire. No English team is going to sell their top players for anything less than a huge inflated price to United. I suppose United could look abroad but you need a good scouting network.
It’s an unpopular opinion but I actually don’t care what he is worth or what he costs. It’s only relevant to me in so far as it influences our ability to get him or the likelihood of us getting him. If he costs £100m and the club want to pay that, great. If we want him we’ll have to pay at least the minimum figure the hammers will accept. These days, most Prem clubs don’t really need to sell.

Rather than thinking of the actual figure, I think it’s more meaningful to ask whether we’d want to spend our whole budget on Rice. I say yes, if that’s the only way to get him.

Either way, I suspect West Ham’s minimum “cash-in” figure will be higher than our total budget.
 

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Everyone is getting hung up on the price.

hes not going to cost 100m, he’s just not. That’s moyes dreaming
But valuation goes by what he’s worth to them not us, and there’s no question he is absolutely invaluable and worth what they’re asking from their perspective as replacing him has so many degrees of luck to it, plus teams then knowing they have bags of cash to be fleeced for.

Taking crucial players from any PL team will rightfully cost an arm and a leg, was even the case in Keane’s day lest we forget he came for a transfer record at the time, it’s just the high-end numbers now are eye-watering and up there on the global scale, which wasn’t the case in the aforementioned day.

If I’m West Ham, nobody is getting Rice for a ‘fair’ price unless he’s ran his contract down.
 

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It’s an unpopular opinion but I actually don’t care what he is worth or what he costs. It’s only relevant to me in so far as it influences our ability to get him or the likelihood of us getting him. If he costs £100m and the club want to pay that, great. If we want him we’ll have to pay at least the minimum figure the hammers will accept. These days, most Prem clubs don’t really need to sell.

Rather than thinking of the actual figure, I think it’s more meaningful to ask whether we’d want to spend our whole budget on Rice. I say yes, if that’s the only way to get him.

Either way, I suspect West Ham’s minimum “cash-in” figure will be higher than our total budget.
If you buy Rice for £100m, you inadvertently feck yourself in the market as the price of every other player goes up in accordance with that. It doesn’t work in a bubble and the knock-on effect should be factored.
 

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The question you have to ask is: would you want us to pay what West Ham would want for him?

That’s ‘get the best defensive midfielder in the league’ money, just a massive fee that shouldn’t be swept under the rug, imo.
Thats why i dont think it would happen.
 

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He is an improvement on McTominay, if you could do a straight swap it would make sense. For 100m you have to look at other options, he isn't the only player that would be a better DM than McTominay. Shame we can't offer Lingard in return, 50m + Lingard
 

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If you buy Rice for £100m, you inadvertently feck yourself in the market as the price of every other player goes up in accordance with that. It doesn’t work in a bubble and the knock-on effect should be factored.
Yes. I mean, the prices paid for footballers do affect the value of other players in the market. Buyers and sellers will always look at comparable transactions to guide them in agreeing a price.

But it’s a fairly complex market. If you ask a lot of people on here about Harry Maguire, they’ll tell you he is one of the worst CBs in the Prem; does that mean CBs are all going to cost more than what we paid for Harry? No. But I agree paying above what a player appears to be worth could distort the market in some fashion. I just wouldn’t get too hung up on it.
 

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You realise when he's stood next to the likes of McTominay that he's a big, hefty lad. Different level in terms of strength and drive.

But like the Maguire signing there is a big question mark. With Maguire it was pace. It's been well discussed but with Rice it's his passing.

I think he hit one nice cross field pass yesterday. Everything else was very basic stuff.

Have United fans got the stomach for another centre midfield whose weak spot is passing. We've surely had enough now.
 

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Yes. I mean, the prices paid for footballers do affect the value of other players in the market. Buyers and sellers will always look at comparable transactions to guide them in agreeing a price.

But it’s a fairly complex market. If you ask a lot of people on here about Harry Maguire, they’ll tell you he is one of the worst CBs in the Prem; does that mean CBs are all going to cost more than what we paid for Harry? No. But I agree paying above what a player appears to be worth could distort the market in some fashion. I just wouldn’t get too hung up on it.
But we have a lot of buying to do, and I think we’ll be a fixture in summer window, so we’ve got to get the best we can for the money we have to play without distorting the market and making a rod for our own back.
 

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If you buy Rice for £100m, you inadvertently feck yourself in the market as the price of every other player goes up in accordance with that. It doesn’t work in a bubble and the knock-on effect should be factored.
Exactly
 

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But valuation goes by what he’s worth to them not us, and there’s no question he is absolutely invaluable and worth what they’re asking from their perspective as replacing him has so many degrees of luck to it, plus teams then knowing they have bags of cash to be fleeced for.
I'd add to that the not insignificant point of being able to attract the player once identified. More so given Moyes' target is bound to already have Wonderkid rep on FM.
 

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But we have a lot of buying to do, and I think we’ll be a fixture in summer window, so we’ve got to get the best we can for the money we have to play without distorting the market and making a rod for our own back.
I sympathise with this view and especially if you think we need a lot of players that’s an understandable perspective.

But I still say the most important thing is to get one top drawer midfielder, even if it means we can’t afford anyone else. We don’t need more £30-£40m players; they usually can’t get into the team, much less improve it.
 

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I sympathise with this view and especially if you think we need a lot of players that’s an understandable perspective.

But I still say the most important thing is to get one top drawer midfielder, even if it means we can’t afford anyone else. We don’t need more £30-£40m players; they usually can’t get into the team, much less improve it.
Nah this is bad logic, if you buy well, smartly with some thought, I'm sure we can get players who'd make a difference to our first team in this price range. We just spend money disgustingly badly so often.
 

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Nah this is bad logic, if you buy well, smartly with some thought, I'm sure we can get players who'd make a difference to our first team in this price range. We just spend money disgustingly badly so often.
Indeed we do and will probably do it again. The point is that players in that lower price bracket are usually not proven. Some of them work out, some don’t.

It’s easy to pick a few successful signings out after the fact and say “look at this guy, we should have bought him!” but for every good one there are several bad (or, for sure, not good enough for us).

Coming here it’s a step up from pretty much everywhere. I just think we want proven, nailed-on quality. And it’s quality not quantity that we need.

The other half to this argument is the question of whether Rice is nailed-on quality of the type we need. I think he is and that’s why I say get him if we possibly can. People who don’t rate him so high will obviously differ.
 

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You realise when he's stood next to the likes of McTominay that he's a big, hefty lad. Different level in terms of strength and drive.

But like the Maguire signing there is a big question mark. With Maguire it was pace. It's been well discussed but with Rice it's his passing.

I think he hit one nice cross field pass yesterday. Everything else was very basic stuff.

Have United fans got the stomach for another centre midfield whose weak spot is passing. We've surely had enough now.
I agree with all of the above - he’s very good as a destroyer, but lacks the fundamental ball-playing qualities required to upgrade United’s midfield.
 

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I honestly don’t think it would take a record British fee. We’ve just come out of covid in terms of getting the fans back in the stadium. West Ham won’t turn their nose up at 65-75m, throw in a few add-ons for winning trophies. None of us would begrudge those if he leads us to trophies
Didn't they turn down 60 or 70m from chelsea a few years back? I'd go up to 60m for him, dont think hes worth it but accept english tax and buying from a team in the same league will drive the price up. Think the chance of west ham accepting that are 0 though.
I'd go for him in a couple of years when his contract is coming to an end but we need to look elsewhere in the mean time in my view. I mean by all means throw an offer at west ham, I just presume we've done that and gotten nowhere.
 

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If we must fixate on the cost, how about £70m plus £25m in add-ons (for big trophy wins). At maximum if stays below £100m and if we end up paying the full add-ons it means we’re back to winning ways.

If only United fans could negotiate the fee among ourselves and then simply pay what we agree is appropriate.
 

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If we must fixate on the cost, how about £70m plus £25m in add-ons (for big trophy wins). At maximum if stays below £100m and if we end up paying the full add-ons it means we’re back to winning ways.

If only United fans could negotiate the fee among ourselves and then simply pay what we agree is appropriate.
Exactly what I was saying above, nobody will quibble if we’re back to winning
 

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I'd add to that the not insignificant point of being able to attract the player once identified. More so given Moyes' target is bound to already have Wonderkid rep on FM.
Absolutely. The money West Ham receive isn’t a dead cert to give them an adequate Rice replacement plus make a tidy profit, which is why the element of risk bumps up the price from their perspective.

They’re really flying at the moment; losing Rice could see them back to mid-table: how much of a loss is that to them measured against the fee and risks involved.

It’s no wonder the price is set at what it is from their perspective, there’s a lot more riding on it than money In/out.
 

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I sympathise with this view and especially if you think we need a lot of players that’s an understandable perspective.

But I still say the most important thing is to get one top drawer midfielder, even if it means we can’t afford anyone else. We don’t need more £30-£40m players; they usually can’t get into the team, much less improve it.
Which all loops back to a Maguire-esque signing, imo. A premium paid for a player who won’t meet that bar and will get pelters for it as if it’s his fault United were silly enough to pay world’s best level fees for him.

Top drawer midfielder means just that, and shouldn’t have the element of doubt so many see in Rice - putting him in a midfield that, by definition, stretches itself trying to win games is the antithesis of everything that has gotten him his plaudits to this point in his career. For both club and country, he is in tight, risk averse and conservative midfields and stays tight to a negative backline; we’re simply the opposite of that and would be setting him up to fail unless our philosophy did a 180.
 

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He is an improvement on McTominay, if you could do a straight swap it would make sense. For 100m you have to look at other options, he isn't the only player that would be a better DM than McTominay. Shame we can't offer Lingard in return, 50m + Lingard
the way Mctominay has played the last few games makes it much easier to stomach not going after Rice who is clearly a great player, keen to see how Scott pushes on from here.
 

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It’s no wonder the price is set at what it is from their perspective, there’s a lot more riding on it than money In/out.
It was only two seasons ago they barely tumbled over the line.

How much is Europe worth? PL status?

With the sums involved and the way they are distributed in the PL (as opposed to, say, La Liga) it's no wonder getting top performing PL players costs a fortune.
 

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Exactly what I was saying above, nobody will quibble if we’re back to winning
Isn't that forgetting the flip side of the coin though?

It's like backing an odds on favourite with a big bet - sure if it goes well no ones complaining, but if it doesn't, you've cleaned yourself out.
 

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It was only two seasons ago they barely tumbled over the line.

How much is Europe worth? PL status?

With the sums involved and the way they are distributed in the PL (as opposed to, say, La Liga) it's no wonder getting top performing PL players costs a fortune.
I mean, from West Ham's perspective, they're cementing themselves as an established top 5-8 team, or from their perspective, trying to kick on to be a CL qualifier, which obviously attracts a different calibre of player- the stakes are huge for them and bigger than 'just' a simple sale of a key player.
 

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Which all loops back to a Maguire-esque signing, imo. A premium paid for a player who won’t meet that bar and will get pelters for it as if it’s his fault United were silly enough to pay world’s best level fees for him.

Top drawer midfielder means just that, and shouldn’t have the element of doubt so many see in Rice - putting him in a midfield that, by definition, stretches itself trying to win games is the antithesis of everything that has gotten him his plaudits to this point in his career. For both club and country, he is in tight, risk averse and conservative midfields and stays tight to a negative backline; we’re simply the opposite of that and would be setting him up to fail unless our philosophy did a 180.
I think this just underlines the crux of the debate: How good is Declan Rice? There are still a few who don’t rate him and I saw your post earlier where you said he never impresses you.

That’s fine. But there is a real shift in people’s assessment of him in recent weeks. I’m not saying there is a consensus and certainly not about the fee. But we are discussing this from different stand points and although we’ve been talking about the market and high fees etc, we’re basically just arguing about how good he is.
 

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If we must fixate on the cost, how about £70m plus £25m in add-ons (for big trophy wins). At maximum if stays below £100m and if we end up paying the full add-ons it means we’re back to winning ways.

If only United fans could negotiate the fee among ourselves and then simply pay what we agree is appropriate.
Give Bayern 100m for Kimmich. Or Real 100m for Casemiro. If your going to pay a stupid fee for a DM then get the best.
I think everyone agrees roughly on his value, people who are keen on him either dont think he'll cost 100m or dont care how much he costs. People who aren't think hes worth 50 / 60m and west ham wont accept that fee.