Declan Rice

[Ekeke]

Not sure what sense this makes? Lovern was a donkey at Lyon and I feel he was pretty overrated at Southampton. VVD was absolutely brilliant for Celtic, had plenty of standout games for them in the CL and was an absolute colossus for Southampton. Not sure what you're getting at?

The other poster brought up Schneiderlin and I pointed out that he looked a far better talent at Southampton than Rice does at West Ham. I know I'm upsetting people, and I'm really sorry and all, but I don't rate Declan Rice, like whatsoever.

You're right he was better, at 23 not at 20. Had you heard of him at 20?

Just because one player signed doesnt work out doesnt mean you shouldnt sign another player. Lovren was Southampton's main man at CB and thats why Liverpool wanted him. Southampton then found a new one in VDV. While Lovren never lived up to Liverpool's interest in him, VDV did. Because guess what they're different people.

Same with Rice and Schneiderlin. Schneiderlin for whatever reason didnt do the things he did at Southampton when he came to United. Did he stop working hard? Did the manager give up on him after a short time and he knew he wasnt wanted? Whatever the reason was he wasnt the same player when he played for United and I thought going to Everton he would find himself again. But he hasn't really done much there either.

Declan Rice is a completely different player and who knows what his mentality and ability to cope with whatever happens at United might be. You and I have no idea thats for sure

 

[Adnan]

Hang about. You just said competition is irrelevant. And that's just it. You don't want to apply this logic when it contradicts your point. Apparently, the fact Rice has no competition (still waiting for some alternatives) for England is irrelevant, but you don't want to broaden on that. Of course comparing Azrani and Rice is stupid, but so is ignoring the absolute dearth in competition he has for places and holding that up as some de facto example of how good he is. It's a moot point because it doesn't suit the point you're making. You know it and I know it.

He didn't struggle in a lot of games and he wasn't carried by Moutinho. He played well. As much as you hate it, Neves was and still is regarded more highly than Rice. Again, I'm not enamoured by the player, I merely wanted a ball playing alternative to the statue we had in his place.

He's a good ball winner, not great. I've not written him off, I'm just not saying what an incredible talent he is and suggesting he can play for a top club based on what he's done so far. Apparently, being decent in the tackle is enough for you. Football has moved on pal. He's going to have to considerably improve his ability on or off the ball to make a career at the top level.

Rice got his England chance because he was playing very well for West Ham. It's his form in the EPL which is what is important. Him also being a regular at such a young age is impressive to me, because to get there, he had to perform well in arguably the toughest league in the world. His club form is why we have this thread and why he's in the England team. So your insistence on competition/alternatives is a moot point which leads to a blind alley.

Neves is regarded this and that for sure and i've been reminded how highly rated he was at Porto too. But even at Porto he was inconsistent and went through long spells where he was underwhelming. In the EPL he was underwhelming last season and I can't remember a single league game where he was excellent. Slow, immobile player who does have the capability to pass at a good level but his inability to beat the press is a issue. Rice was better than Neves last season which is undeniable.

Rice is 20 so the expectation is that his game is gonna improve and develop further. His passing was very good in the game yesterday. What you also have to remember is that, he's now becoming a established player at 20 and not many players his age can say that. Even the likes of Scholes and Beckham didn't have as much appearances at the same age.

 

[Robbie Boy]

You're right he was better, at 23 not at 20. Had you heard of him at 20?

Just because one player signed doesnt work out doesnt mean you shouldnt sign another player. Lovren was Southampton's main man at CB and thats why Liverpool wanted him. Southampton then found a new one in VDV. While Lovren never lived up to Liverpool's interest in him, VDV did. Because guess what they're different people.

Same with Rice and Schneiderlin. Schneiderlin for whatever reason didnt do the things he did at Southampton when he came to United. Did he stop working hard? Did the manager give up on him after a short time and he knew he wasnt wanted? Whatever the reason was he wasnt the same player when he played for United and I thought going to Everton he would find himself again. But he hasn't really done much there either.

Declan Rice is a completely different player and who knows what his mentality and ability to cope with whatever happens at United might be. You and I have no idea thats for sure

I don't rate Declan Rice. Why does that upset you?

 

[ROFLUTION]

Looks really promising. Good at cleaning up, but also has safe passes upfield - But we'd have two of his types if we bought him.

Money could be spent better elsewhere, now that we're penny pinching

 

[Dante]

Those are stats from Whoscored in 18/19

I'm not somebody who normally puts too much stock in stats because of differences in tactics and roles. But in this case, I'll post this to give an indication of what those roles might have been.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Those are stats from Whoscored in 18/19

I'm not somebody who normally puts too much stock in stats because of differences in tactics and roles. But in this case, I'll post this to give an indication of what those roles might have been.

I think Ndidi's terrible passing is why you don't see any major club interest in him. He's too much of a specialist in the modern game. Although his passing is a lot better than Ndidi I think the question is if Rice is too limited for a top level midfield.

 

[flappyjay]

He was brilliant in the league against us last year, smashed in a worldie and was class in the league this season, thats 2 games on the bounce, plus early in the season last year at OT he was very good, so that's three games him and Moutinho have pretty much ran the show against us (not including the cup game when they battered us as well).

Reads the game, passing is superb, forward passing, crossfield balls, football intelligence, superb shot on him, free kicks, but yeah not sure why anyone would want a CM with all those qualities.

Roll on Matic playing on Sunday, feck Neves don't need him.

No fam Neves has been below par, nice goal against us but spent the rest of the game being off pace and fouling a lot to make up for his inability to read the game. Has good skillset that should make a good player but he isn't putting it together well enough

 

[Ander herrera the warrior]

Rice and Mctominay playing together means lack of creativity. Ideally we want a deep lying playmaker alongside Mctominay and Pogba at 10. Once Pogba leaves, let's get Maddison.

 

[Adnan]

I was speaking more to the point of him playing in a better league which you pointed to before.
Now with regards to this point again it is subjective, did River have a very good player ahead of him? It is about opportunity.

You cannot use that to say he is better because there are too many other factors to consider.

You can make a case for Rice being better at 20 and him playing against superior quality of players as being a factor which can't be ignored. If it was a major European League then it wouldn't be such a factor. But the Argentine league was considerably weaker IMO.

 

[Lash]

Spoiler

Those are stats from Whoscored in 18/19

I'm not somebody who normally puts too much stock in stats because of differences in tactics and roles. But in this case, I'll post this to give an indication of what those roles might have been.[/SPOILER]

That seems to show me that Rice does nothing exceptionally. Jack of all trades, master of none.

 

[Ekeke]

I don't rate Declan Rice. Why does that upset you?

It doesnt.

Suggesting that we shouldnt buy him because Scneiderlin didnt work out is just silly to me. There are other reasons that are more reasonable

 

[Cassidy]

You can make a case for Rice being better at 20 and him playing against superior quality of players as being a factor which can't be ignored. If it was a major European League then it wouldn't be such a factor. But the Argentine league was considerably weaker IMO.

Going around in circles now

 

[Robbie Boy]

It doesnt.

Suggesting that we shouldnt buy him because Scneiderlin didnt work out is just silly to me. There are other reasons that are more reasonable

I didn't bring Schneiderlin into the debate and I simply made an off the cuff comment. It wasn't really meant to be taken with the upmost seriousness.

I don't want to sign him simply because I don't think he's that good nor do I see him vastly improving. I'm actually dead set against signing him and thankfully there are no credible links whatsoever.

 

[StrettyEnder07]

No fam Neves has been below par, nice goal against us but spent the rest of the game being off pace and fouling a lot to make up for his inability to read the game. Has good skillset that should make a good player but he isn't putting it together well enough

First half yeah we dominated and played very well, second half they pressed very high and came at us I thought they bossed the midfield second half, may just be me but I think he will be quality and at a top 6 club sooner rather than later.

Any one that seems to get mentioned as being a decent player on this forum just gets shot down immediately, cracks me up really does.

 

[Ekeke]

I didn't bring Schneiderlin into the debate and I simply made an off the cuff comment. It wasn't really meant to be taken with the upmost seriousness.

I don't want to sign him simply because I don't think he's that good nor do I see him vastly improving. I'm actually dead set against signing him and thankfully there are no credible links whatsoever.

Fair enough. At this point I don't think I'd want us to sign him either unless it was a good deal money wise. But I think he's a good young DM who can help a team out doing most of the defensive part of a DM's job quite well.

 

[Dante]

That seems to show me that Rice does nothing exceptionally. Jack of all trades, master of none.

That's a good thing, depending on the player's role in the team.

I've added a couple of columns here to show dispossessions and unsuccessful touches.

What Rice is very good at is:

• protecting the ball when he has it in his possesion
• winning it back when his team doesn't have it

West Ham don't play a possession game, so Rice hasn't been tested yet in United's kind of system. But what we can see is that he's a top tackler, rarely gives away fouls, has a very good passing range, and rarely loses the ball. In fact, if you take those qualities together, Rice is the best DM in the league.

Rice plus two forward facing AMs would work very well. Given our lack of creativity in the front 3 and at fullback, that might be our best strategy to become a potent attacking force.

But if Pogba were to leave and Sancho were to join, I don't think that Rice would be the right DM for us. McTominay is a supreme presser and water-carrier already. He could be paired with a hard working AM plus a DLP.

Whatever happens, United are going to need pressing, creativity and ball-winning ability from somewhere. The exact formula for that is up in the air. It all comes down to what happens with Pogba, Sancho and Maddison in the Summer.

 

[Devil may care]

I would prefer a ball player, but it remains to be seen what Ole's strategy is in that regard.

Yeah, at the moment he's using a double pivot with two #8's that are allowed to join the attack when one stays, as opposed to a dedicated holder, whether that's by design or simply down to the options he has we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Fair enough. At this point I don't think I'd want us to sign him either unless it was a good deal money wise. But I think he's a good young DM who can help a team out doing most of the defensive part of a DM's job quite well.

I honestly just find him totally underwhelming and I’m not getting what people are seeing in him. I think the whole international fiasco has gotten him extra exposure if I’m being totally honest. To me still reeks of a CB playing a DM role.

I would be happy enough if any of our rivals were to sign him and I really hope we never go for him. He’s not my style of player and I don’t think he would improve us whatsoever as he’s a limited footballer. Some people seem besotted by him and fair play. Different strokes and all that...

 

[davidmichael]

Rice and Mctominay playing together means lack of creativity. Ideally we want a deep lying playmaker alongside Mctominay and Pogba at 10. Once Pogba leaves, let's get Maddison.

We need both a playmaker AND an out and out defensive midfielder, different games mean different tactics and different players starting matches.

They’ll be games where we need an out and out defensive midfielder due to playing with a playmaker AND Pogba but in other games where we're away from home or a tight game having that protection from McTominay and Rice for Pogba to do his thing without defensive shackles would be needed.

 

[Lash]

That's a good thing, depending on the player's role in the team.

Spoiler

I've added a couple of columns here to show dispossessions and unsuccessful touches.

What Rice is very good at is:

• protecting the ball when he has it in his possesion
• winning it back when his team doesn't have it

West Ham don't play a possession game, so Rice hasn't been tested yet in United's kind of system. But what we can see is that he's a top tackler, rarely gives away fouls, has a very good passing range, and rarely loses the ball. In fact, if you take those qualities together, Rice is the best DM in the league.

Rice plus two forward facing AMs would work very well. Given our lack of creativity in the front 3 and at fullback, that might be our best strategy to become a potent attacking force.

But if Pogba were to leave and Sancho were to join, I don't think that Rice would be the right DM for us. McTominay is a supreme presser and water-carrier already. He could be paired with a hard working AM plus a DLP.

Whatever happens, United are going to need pressing, creativity and ball-winning ability from somewhere. The exact formula for that is up in the air. It all comes down to what happens with Pogba, Sancho and Maddison in the Summer.

I don't like that idea to be honest, I don't really see the balance in that. We don't really have an issue on the counter, we have an issue when teams sit deep, so I don't really see how Rice is really ever going to be the answer to our midfield issues.

 

[Dante]

I don't like that idea to be honest, I don't really see the balance in that. We don't really have an issue on the counter, we have an issue when teams sit deep, so I don't really see how Rice is really ever going to be the answer to our midfield issues.

Rice plus Maddison plus Pogba wouldn't help against deep sitting teams? Two forward facing AMs would be brilliant for that.

Rice is also the best long passer out of all the top DMs in the league. His ability to switch play would help massively.

 

[Ole90+3]

Isn't Rice too slow and lumbersome to play in Ole's high pressing style? Or is Ole only wanting the attacking players to press?

 

[Dante]

Isn't Rice too slow and lumbersome to play in Ole's high pressing style? Or is Ole only wanting the attacking players to press?

That's what 'high press' means.

 

[Eckers99]

That's a good thing, depending on the player's role in the team.

I've added a couple of columns here to show dispossessions and unsuccessful touches.

What Rice is very good at is:

• protecting the ball when he has it in his possesion
• winning it back when his team doesn't have it

West Ham don't play a possession game, so Rice hasn't been tested yet in United's kind of system. But what we can see is that he's a top tackler, rarely gives away fouls, has a very good passing range, and rarely loses the ball. In fact, if you take those qualities together, Rice is the best DM in the league.

Rice plus two forward facing AMs would work very well. Given our lack of creativity in the front 3 and at fullback, that might be our best strategy to become a potent attacking force.

But if Pogba were to leave and Sancho were to join, I don't think that Rice would be the right DM for us. McTominay is a supreme presser and water-carrier already. He could be paired with a hard working AM plus a DLP.

Whatever happens, United are going to need pressing, creativity and ball-winning ability from somewhere. The exact formula for that is up in the air. It all comes down to what happens with Pogba, Sancho and Maddison in the Summer.

I can see why people are underwhelmed by him, he's not exactly a highlights reel kind of player. But he's very effective at what he does and is also versatile so could play equally well at CB if needed. We definitely need to upgrade on Matic and are just working around that problem at the minute. And the comparisons with Mctominay are pointless as McT doesn't have the anticipation or awareness to play the DM role. It's a very specialist position that usually takes a long time to perfect, which makes it all the more impressive that Rice is doing it so well at 20.

He'd be an excellent signing.

 

[Ole90+3]

That's what 'high press' means.

Oh shit. Why did I think it stood for high pressure?

 

[Ekeke]

I honestly just find him totally underwhelming and I’m not getting what people are seeing in him. I think the whole international fiasco has gotten him extra exposure if I’m being totally honest. To me still reeks of a CB playing a DM role.

I would be happy enough if any of our rivals were to sign him and I really hope we never go for him. He’s not my style of player and I don’t think he would improve us whatsoever as he’s a limited footballer. Some people seem besotted by him and fair play. Different strokes and all that...

I think he's just a young English version of the type of player Makelele and Mascherano were in midfield. He can come up with a nice pass on either foot occasionally but hes not going to be running the show with his passing. He's just going to battle and duel against the oppositions attacking players and at 20 years old he's already physically mature enough to out power most of the players he comes up against. He might not turn out as good as either of the other 2 but we wont know for several years yet.

 

[Dante]

Oh shit. Why did I think it stood for high pressure?

To be fair to you, it's a relatively new phrase in football. It's more associated with American sports. Unless you already knew that, there's no way you could know the real meaning.

 

[SGA]

Just another young average English player who would cost silly money and not be worth it.

 

[Robbie Boy]

I think he's just a young English version of the type of player Makelele and Mascherano were in midfield. He can come up with a nice pass on either foot occasionally but hes not going to be running the show with his passing. He's just going to battle and duel against the oppositions attacking players and at 20 years old he's already physically mature enough to out power most of the players he comes up against. He might not turn out as good as either of the other 2 but we wont know for several years yet.

Both players you mentioned were far more technically proficient and were naturals in their roles. Makelele was a far more elegant footballer and his reading of the game is what made him one of the best in his position. Rice simply doesn’t have that awareness and I see him as nothing more than a ‘destroyer’.

I’m not sure what top team would have a necessity for that type of player in modern football. Most have a player sitting deep that can both tackle and act as a playmaker of sorts. That’s not Rice’s forte and nor should it be given he’s only been converted to a DM over the past 24 months. I just find the hype around him all very silly and it doesn’t correlate to what he’s doing on the pitch.

 

[CM]

Agree with this. Also all over the place without a midfield partner which has to be considered. Whoever buys him has to think carefully about their plan. Doing well for his age, good character too but £90m no chance. All over McGinn though. What an engine that guy has got with some quality too.

Yeah McGinn looks like he could be a player. Might not be one for the deepest role but still well worth monitoring.

 

[Adnan]

Going around in circles now

Not really, quality of opposition is important and cannot be brushed aside or ignored.

 

[Cassidy]

Not really, quality of opposition is important and cannot be brushed aside or ignored.

Neither can opportunity (being English and not requiring a work permit) and competition to get in the side (not having a senior competent player ahead) which is what I pointed out before.
At the same age and stage of development it would be nigh on impossible for an Argentinian player born in Argentina with no European passport to be playing in the premier league.

 

[Adnan]

Neither can opportunity (being English and not requiring a work permit) and competition to get in the side (not having a senior competent player ahead) which is what I pointed out before.
At the same age and stage of development it would be nigh on impossible for an Argentinian player born in Argentina with no European passport to be playing in the premier league.

What about playing in Spain, Germany, Italy or even France?

The question that was asked was Rice better than Mascherano at the same age? And a case for Rice can be made. Mascherano not playing in the EPL isn't a condition I've set either, but you've brought it up afew times for some reason. Mascherano not moving to Europe until he was 22 gives Declan Rice some credence over him due to the quality of opposition faced at a similar age.

 

[Cassidy]

What about playing in Spain, Germany, Italy or even France?

The question that was asked was Rice better than Mascherano at the same age? And a case for Rice can be made. Mascherano not playing in the EPL isn't a condition I've set either, but you've brought it up afew times for some reason. Mascherano not moving to Europe until he was 22 gives Declan Rice some credence over him due to the quality of opposition faced at a similar age.

Probably because here is where I entered the conversation

It's pretty simple in the sense that playing in the Argentinian League needs to be factored in when comparing them at the same age. But it seems people factor in hindsight instead, which is why my answer to the other poster is then responded to in a aggressive tone.

To which my point is that negates a lot of context with players under 21, I personally wouldn't take it into consideration.

Not moving to Europe until 22 doesn't give Rice credence because Rice didn't have to move. Your point assumes the reason players do not move to Europe before that age is down to talent and talent alone. Where in fact there is a lot more to it than that which is all I am pointing out.

I'm not even saying one was better than the other, just pointing out that the way you are making your assessment has many flaws

 

[Adnan]

Probably because here is where I entered the conversation



To which my point is that negates a lot of context with players under 21, I personally wouldn't take it into consideration.

Not moving to Europe until 22 doesn't give Rice credence because Rice didn't have to move. Your point assumes the reason players do not move to Europe before that age is down to talent and talent alone. Where in fact there is a lot more to it than that which is all I am pointing out.

I'm not even saying one was better than the other, just pointing out that the way you are making your assessment has many flaws

Rice didn't have to move that is true, but the question asked was Rice better than Mascherano at the same age? And quality of opposition has to be taken into account when answering that question. Rice has also been more productive as far as G/A contributions are concerned too. Which should mean something and he has more appearances at a similar age playing at a higher level.

Like I said a case for Rice being better at the same age can be made.

 

[Cassidy]

Rice didn't have to move that is true, but the question asked was Rice better than Mascherano at the same age? And quality of opposition has to be taken into account when answering that question. Rice has also been more productive as far as G/A contributions are concerned too. Which should mean something and he has more appearances at a similar age playing at a higher level.

Like I said a case for Rice being better at the same age can be made.

And has been shown you can make the case the other way too. My overall point is it is way too hard to compare because they played in different environments.

 

[Kostur]

This shit again, it's like you guys are trying to irk me. First you tried that with Dire, now this, feck off.

 

[Svartzonker]

I think he is a decent player with a bright future, but we will be too limited if we are playing him with McTominay.

With those concerns even before we get to the price, it’s a no thanks for me.

 

[Nanotron]

Watched the whole game today. I was impressed. However it's pretty clear he is at the same level - if not below - as Scott. He does have a more commanding ability when dribbling with the ball but no where near the vision, range and intricate ball control that Scott has.

 

[Adnan]

And has been shown you can make the case the other way too. My overall point is it is way too hard to compare because they played in different environments.

The question was asked and I answered it to the best of my knowledge.

Mascherano was at River Plate at the time and Rice has been at West Ham in the EPL. So it's only fair to compare their time at both clubs because otherwise the question asked becomes redundant.