Yeah, and we shouldn't be disappointed about it! Had he lived in different era he would've been the greatest player of that era.
Did Rooney fulfill his potential?
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You can't compare apples with pears. Different time, different team, different league. What Messi and Ronaldo did was ridiculous, them 4 or 5 years they consistently scored 50 plus.
Rooney went on to won 2 more league titles after Ronaldo left, in 3 years. Time moves on, means nothing. The point on Rooney will always be the same. He's like marmite, you either dont rate him, or you did at some point of his career.
I didn't think he was necessarily bad on the ball in midfield. But I was think more dictating the tempo of the attack at his best.
I'm sad that a lot of fans don't rate him in hindsight. You don't become club top scorer without fulfilling your potential.
I don't think he did. He had a lot of general fitness issues and didn't have the lifestyle discipline of someone like Ronaldo to overcome them.
The fact he reached such a high level and achieved what he did anyway is a testament to how much ability he had. I don't think he could ever have reached Ronaldo/Messi levels, but when you think how good he was when he was at peak fitness, and imagine if that had been more consistent, he could have been quite easily the best of the rest.
I do think he was vastly under appreciated though, which is a different thing. It's not just the all time top scorer thing which is a pretty big deal, it's the number of titles and vital games where his contribution made a vital difference. He had that one year where he basically dragged us to a league title and the CL final despite the fact he couldn't get himself in any kind of shape until after Christmas, which to be honest kind of summed up both what was so good about him and what tended to hold him back.
The fact he reached such a high level and achieved what he did anyway is a testament to how much ability he had. I don't think he could ever have reached Ronaldo/Messi levels, but when you think how good he was when he was at peak fitness, and imagine if that had been more consistent, he could have been quite easily the best of the rest.
I do think he was vastly under appreciated though, which is a different thing. It's not just the all time top scorer thing which is a pretty big deal, it's the number of titles and vital games where his contribution made a vital difference. He had that one year where he basically dragged us to a league title and the CL final despite the fact he couldn't get himself in any kind of shape until after Christmas, which to be honest kind of summed up both what was so good about him and what tended to hold him back.
Oh, he was not bad on the ball at all, but he wasn’t able to dictate the tempo. Pogba isn’t really able to dictate the tempo, for example, and he’s a brilliant passer. Dictating the tempo is a very special ability that only a few players possess — and being able to make great cross-field passes doesn’t necessarily mean that you have it.
He became United's and England's all time top scorer, so I would say yes. Could he have been even better had he given more focus to his fitness and lifestyle? Possibly, but on the basis of what he did achieve it's tough to say he didn't live up to his potential.
Messi ate tons of junk food, mostly pizza and he was the only one who was allowed to drink Pepsi in club’s canteen after Pep banned all soda drinks from it (Messi was still casually coming in and drinking it anyway and turned out he could get away with it). He only changed his diet closer to 2014/15, I think (after he had a few incidents with vomiting during and after the game and hired a personal nutritionist).
I think in club career, yes.
Unfortunately, Rooney's best tournament with England ended up being Euro 2004. He often would play very well in friendlies and qualyfing matches, but in the big tournaments itself, not so much...
I do wonder if Harry Kane will end up being considered as having a better career than Rooney when he's done
Unfortunately, Rooney's best tournament with England ended up being Euro 2004. He often would play very well in friendlies and qualyfing matches, but in the big tournaments itself, not so much...
I do wonder if Harry Kane will end up being considered as having a better career than Rooney when he's done
Unlikely unless he leaves Spurs.
Absolutely... He is a legend but we should have got rid of him by 2012-2013 snd should not have offered him that 6 years contract.
For a very brief time, probably between January and April 2010, he absolutely was at the level of Ronaldo and Messi. That was before the injury he suffered against Bayern, and before Ronaldo and Messi really became the unreal goal machines they have been for the past decade.
However, I believe the best form of Rooney's career came in the following season. Like you said, in 2011, he was unstoppable. He truly had everything in his game, and he singlehandedly pushed us to the title and Champions League Final (a match in which he was one of the very few players we had that showed up).
Overall, he had an amazing career, but probably did not live up to his incredible potential, which as others have said, is just a testament to how gifted Rooney was.
Just one example of the sort goals he could score. Fine header by Keith Gillespie and Ronaldo moment he'd rather forget
I'd say no.
He was a great player, but he didn't take the step up to the next level that I (and most people) expected him to do in his early days. Even if he couldn't keep up with Messi and Ronaldo (no shame in that), he still should have been consistently up there with the best of the rest if not in outright third place. Instead there was probably only one season that he was even the best in England. A great player who was very consistent for about eight years, but he could have been even better IMO.
He was a great player, but he didn't take the step up to the next level that I (and most people) expected him to do in his early days. Even if he couldn't keep up with Messi and Ronaldo (no shame in that), he still should have been consistently up there with the best of the rest if not in outright third place. Instead there was probably only one season that he was even the best in England. A great player who was very consistent for about eight years, but he could have been even better IMO.
Leading scorer all time for United
Leading scorer all time for England
One of only 2 men to score over 200 goals in the premier league
More caps than any other England player
We should all be so lucky to miss by so much in fulfilling our potential.
You want to discuss untapped potential, start the conversation with Anthony Martial.
Leading scorer all time for England
One of only 2 men to score over 200 goals in the premier league
More caps than any other England player
We should all be so lucky to miss by so much in fulfilling our potential.
You want to discuss untapped potential, start the conversation with Anthony Martial.
You said that Ronaldo needed Rooney to score the goals he scored, his record for Portugal alone suggests he really didn’t. Factor in the insane record for Madrid and there’s enough proof to suggest it was t the case.
Rooney was a great player, like Keane, Scholes, Giggs Etc. He just wasn’t in that level above like Best and Ronaldo, which I believe is where the discussion comes from. He was overhyped as something he wasn’t when he was younger. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t great. He’s up there with the true greats who ever played for United.
I still think of the time he was targeted and nobbled by Bayern. I think he would have taken us to the European Cup that season.
I'm harping on but imagine this Rooney with Tevez and Ronaldo or van Persie:
When you look back on the 11/12 & then the 12/13 seasons, his physical decline is very apparent.
When you look back on the 11/12 & then the 12/13 seasons, his physical decline is very apparent.
That explains it nicely. When you think of that raw and powerful 18 year old....he just didnt fulfil that potential despite the fact that he was still awesome for us.
Great great player and most definitely underappreciated.
The ‘Rooney was never the same player after his early days’ line is getting trotted out a lot, as usual, so I thought I’d look at the stats. Now, there's more to being a great player than scoring or creating goals, but we can't measure ineffable notions of quality, whereas we can measure his goals and assists. So, here's some charts focusing on ‘minutes per goal contribution’ (very much the coming man of football nerdology) over the years.
I'd say Wayne Rooney was great for five years in a supporting role, (mostly) exceptional for the next five as (mostly) the main man, and then LVG ruined his career. I'm being facetious, and he was always gonna decline early, but just look at that pretty much overnight collapse.
Did he reach his 'potential'? feck knows, his ceiling was probably higher if he’d not had so very many minor injuries, but outside of George Best nobody’s ever given the club a decade like Rooney’s pre-LVG years.
I'd say Wayne Rooney was great for five years in a supporting role, (mostly) exceptional for the next five as (mostly) the main man, and then LVG ruined his career. I'm being facetious, and he was always gonna decline early, but just look at that pretty much overnight collapse.
Did he reach his 'potential'? feck knows, his ceiling was probably higher if he’d not had so very many minor injuries, but outside of George Best nobody’s ever given the club a decade like Rooney’s pre-LVG years.
Ah yes, Anderson starring at Szczesny at 3:43. He helped Rooney's decline.
Record goal scorer for a major club
Serial PL winner
CL win + 2 finals
Statistically he fulfilled his potential in my opinion.
Why is it still something debated?
1. Multiple instances of blips throughout his career
2. Discipline to stay fit
3. Comparison with other players he played with - eg. Ruud, Ronaldo, RVP, etc. all of whom were goal scoring machines
4. Last 3 seasons and what he was paid for those 3 years
All said, I would be happy if we find the 'next' Rooney and spend 100m to sign him. 20+ goals guaranteed every season for a decade.
Serial PL winner
CL win + 2 finals
Statistically he fulfilled his potential in my opinion.
Why is it still something debated?
1. Multiple instances of blips throughout his career
2. Discipline to stay fit
3. Comparison with other players he played with - eg. Ruud, Ronaldo, RVP, etc. all of whom were goal scoring machines
4. Last 3 seasons and what he was paid for those 3 years
All said, I would be happy if we find the 'next' Rooney and spend 100m to sign him. 20+ goals guaranteed every season for a decade.
No doubt about any of that, but the question here isn't whether Rooney was greatest, among the greatest British footballers ever, but whether he fulfilled his potential.
One could argue both sides, but for me it's clear Rooney was so fantastic as a young player that the decline in his performances during what should have been his peak years strongly suggest that his potential was not fulfilled. Or perhaps to put a finer point on it, that his peak came way too early in his career and that he drifted into a premature decline --- in light of what we all saw his potential to be.
Still, a club and country legend. Rooney may take a bow.
Conclusion, the local circus is missing a clown, you
Well, Alan Shearer never left Newcastle and still tops the PL all-time scoring table.
He would have been a different player had he been played up top his whole career. He could have been a 30 goal a season striker every year, but his incredible industry meant he was even more useful to the team playing as a trequartista, doing the work of both midfielder and striker. He was a big part of the reason why our defense was so good, but i can't help but feel badly for him that he didn't get the kind of goal tally he could have, and thus he gets underrated.
stop.
I wonder how his career would have been remembered if the whole asking for City moment didnt happen.
I think this brushing his good career under the carpet that also seems to happen towards the end of his career would have been altered.
I think this brushing his good career under the carpet that also seems to happen towards the end of his career would have been altered.
He never reached his potential IMO. He was such an exciting player when he had that raw explosiveness and passion in him early in his career. As that gradually faded, he developed a knack for scoring goals, but in all honesty I thought he greatly benefitted from the system he was playing in. I don’t think he really had the dedication, unlike, say, Ronaldo.
A great player for us, but for me he could’ve gone on to be so much more.
A great player for us, but for me he could’ve gone on to be so much more.
aw does it offend you that Scholes was better?
Better at what? Scholes is one of the best midfielders of all time and one of the most intelligent at reading the game.. but better overall than rooney? Not even close.
Fair point but he also started at 16, 4 years earlier than Giggs and Scholes. I think his body had fully developed by time he was 16.
He was more talented than Ronaldo when we signed him, so no, I don’t think he lived up to his potential. Not a criticism as he’s one of my favourite players ever, but could have been even better. injuries and fitness issues let him down
Failed, although that is because his potential was incredible.
To do this he needed to avoid the foot injuries (they started in 2004 Euros) and stop the general injuries he regularly had. He would have exceptional form, be rubbish for a while when he came back then be immense. This would have kept his explosiveness on a more consistent level and then when he aged a bit and had a better footballing brain then wow, what a player he would have been.
To do this he needed to avoid the foot injuries (they started in 2004 Euros) and stop the general injuries he regularly had. He would have exceptional form, be rubbish for a while when he came back then be immense. This would have kept his explosiveness on a more consistent level and then when he aged a bit and had a better footballing brain then wow, what a player he would have been.
I remember Croatia - England game in Euros 2004 and how he destroyed us. He was electric. Never fulfilled promise he showed there and of course at United when he came. He actually had a great career so who knows what would have happened if he fullfilled his potential.
He started too early, was one of those players like Raul with who it seems he was there forever when he was just 22, 23. That plus injuries and that he wasn't dedicated as much as he should have been.
He started too early, was one of those players like Raul with who it seems he was there forever when he was just 22, 23. That plus injuries and that he wasn't dedicated as much as he should have been.
He wasn’t. He was more mature. He never had Ronaldos ability.
Better at football, first touch, passing, controlling the game, playing one touch football. Rooney was a better forward. Wow if you think it wasn’t close. Listen to united players when asked who’s the best player they’ve ever played with. Not many say Rooney. Usually Scholes and Ronaldo. Scholes gets more nods than Ronaldo. Giggs gets a few too.
Rooney's emergence to the scene was quite eye-catching but for me it wasn't on the same level of Ronaldo or Messi. I remember watching the game on eurosport when it was the first time I saw Ronaldo playing and he literally destroyed us, the things he was doing on the field, the dribbling, the technique, the flair was just unique, you just feel you are witnessing something great about to happen. For me Rooney didn't have the same wow-effect but still was brilliant, an exciting english talent, probably the most exciting back then after Owen in terms of breakthrough, so his ceiling would have been to become a world-class player, which I think he quite did given all the numbers and records he holds for both our club and England. Rooney also excelled in the supporting role, pretty much to his own demise, if he had been more selfish about being a striker rather than all-around player, he would have still played at big clubs at this age I think. I look at how Ibra came to the club and was fit for his age, if only Rooney managed himself better, still, for me he is a legend and a truly world-class player who fulfilled his potential in an era where we witnessed the brilliance of Ronaldo and Messi...
He did like any player of his caliber would have done.
But how right was he to question the board and the management when he did. He was definitely onto something. And people hated him for that.
But how right was he to question the board and the management when he did. He was definitely onto something. And people hated him for that.
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/oct/20/wayne-rooney-manchester-united
The 24-year-old expressed surprise at his manager's remarks and confirmed he wanted a transfer as he expressed concern at the direction the United are heading in under the ownership of the Glazers.
"I met with David Gill [United's chief executive] last week and he did not give me any of the assurances I was seeking about the future squad," Rooney said. "I then told him that I would not be signing a new contract.
"I was interested to hear what Sir Alex had to say yesterday and surprised by some of it. It is absolutely true, as he said, that my agent and I have had a number of meetings with the club about a new contract. During those meetings in August I asked for assurances about the continued ability of the club to attract the top players in the world.
"I have never had anything but complete respect for MUFC. How could I not have done given its fantastic history and especially the last six years in which I have been lucky to play a part?
"For me its all about winning trophies – as the club has always done under Sir Alex. Because of that I think the questions I was asking were justified.
"Despite recent difficulties, I know I will always owe Sir Alex Ferguson a huge debt. He is a great manager and mentor who has helped and supported me from the day he signed me from Everton when I was only 18.
"For Manchester United's sake I wish he could go on forever because he's a one‑off and a genius."
Can see it both ways.. we certainly dropped a few levels after Tevez/Ronaldo leaving...